Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
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Well you and Red do have something in common Phil
Neither of you answers the points put to you on this subject, and youi both simply ignore the scriptures put to you but always expect people to adhere strictly to your interpretation of the scriptures you produce and respond to your questions
All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to Christ, do you not believe that includes forgiving sins?
But that you may know that the son of man has AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins he said to the paralytic
Take up your mat and walk Mark 2:8&9
Who gave Christ his authority Phil?
The person who gives autyhortiy must be greater than the one who receives it
We worship the divinity of the Father in the son
Now, if you ask me anymore questions I will not answer them until you have firstly answered some of mine, fair?
Is that fair debate? We each put questions to the other AND EXPECT A RESPONSE
Neither of you answers the points put to you on this subject, and youi both simply ignore the scriptures put to you but always expect people to adhere strictly to your interpretation of the scriptures you produce and respond to your questions
All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to Christ, do you not believe that includes forgiving sins?
But that you may know that the son of man has AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins he said to the paralytic
Take up your mat and walk Mark 2:8&9
Who gave Christ his authority Phil?
The person who gives autyhortiy must be greater than the one who receives it
We worship the divinity of the Father in the son
Now, if you ask me anymore questions I will not answer them until you have firstly answered some of mine, fair?
Is that fair debate? We each put questions to the other AND EXPECT A RESPONSE
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As I said
I will ask you a couple of questions, when I have answers to the questions asked and not deviation I will answer your further question
Then the end will come when he(Christ) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power
For he must REIGN INTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death
For he has put everything under his feet
Now when it says that everything has been put under him IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ
When he has done this, then the son Himself will be made SUBJECT to him who put everything under him so that God may be all in all
1 Cor 15:24-28
Firstly
Can you give me your understanding of what these verses of scripture are saying, each individual verse would be appreciated, especially the words in block capitals
Secondly
You believe that in the economic sense the son is now and always has been subject to the Father, but in the ontological sense(hope that's right, you know what I mean anyway) it is impossible for the son to be subject to the Father, you have in the past endorsed this view from a comment someone else made
So, can yoiu tell me in accordance with what Paul wrote in what way Christ WILL become subject to the Father in the future when all dominion, authority and power has been defeated
It cannot be the ontological sense as you believe that is impossible. It cannot be the economic sense for you clearly believe in this way Christ is now and always has been subject to the Father
So, in what way WILL Christ become subject to the Father in the future
When you have CLEARLY AND FULLY WITHOUT SIDETRACKING answered these questions I will be happy to answer your further question
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You have come to these conclusions on your own through introspection from the insecurity that is in your heart concerning the the doctrine of Christ and others things of God. However, if you continue to deny that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, that is the spirit of antichrist and a heart of unbelief. You would have to humble yourself and turn from that unbelief and from that error in your heart to be reconciled to God through the truth. I hope you do.
Well as I have countless times said that The Father was manifest in the son I am grateful you are no longer accusing me of that
Please show me a scripture which CLEARLY states Jesus was the one true God in the flesh
And please get the wording EXACTLY as you have written it. For you know I accept the father was in the son
If you cannot, once again you are accusing me of having the spirit of antichrist for not believing something which is not clearly wirtten in the Bible
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It's all there in the opening post and who has blinded your mind from the doctrine of Christ? I hope that we will not be hearing from you that Jesus Christ only paid for the sins of those that believe and not for the sins of the whole world who are still in unbelief. I hope we also do not hear that the blood of Christ only offered a limited atonement or that the work of Christ was not finished at the cross for sinful man. That would be a real disaster to be so shipwrecked in the faith that some would even forget that they were purged from their old sins.
There is a progression that takes place when the heart departs from the faith of the only true and living God, Jesus Christ. Satan desired to sift Peter as wheat but Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail and that he would experience a true conversion (Lk 22:32). Peter's confession was always very noble in following the Lord but he did not understand what was in his own heart and when the real trials came, what was in his heart came out and he denied the Lord three times. But even then the Lord did not judge or condemn him and raised him up to be the first preacher at Pentecost and was used mightily by the hand of God.
There is a progression that takes place when the heart departs from the faith of the only true and living God, Jesus Christ. Satan desired to sift Peter as wheat but Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail and that he would experience a true conversion (Lk 22:32). Peter's confession was always very noble in following the Lord but he did not understand what was in his own heart and when the real trials came, what was in his heart came out and he denied the Lord three times. But even then the Lord did not judge or condemn him and raised him up to be the first preacher at Pentecost and was used mightily by the hand of God.
A
Devolution--
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
So again, are WE all God now also?
Huh? how do you equate the two verse. this verse is not saying we are made gods its saying the Holy Spirit living in us and working through us(manifested) will be given to every believer and is profitable to them.. how does that equate to God becoming flesh. Incarnate.. the word manifest was not used..
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
the word made here is--
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
the word manifested you sited in 1 cor 12:7 means--
phanerōsis
fan-er'-o-sis
From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation.
Jesus being born as a man is not manifistation but incarnation, becoming a man..
Look at Jesus titles given in the OT..
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, -------
Everlasting---- ‛ad ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
Father-
'âb
awb
A primitive word; father in a literal and immediate, or figurative and remote application: - chief, (fore-) father ([-less]), X patrimony, principal. Compare names in "Abi-"
The Prince of Peace.
Explain why one of His titles is Everlasting never ending Father? lets not mistake that everything thats ever been created was created by and through Jesus. Jesus is not a creation...
Sorry but i have no choice but to reject your teaching as unbiblical...Jesus Deity is without question. Scripture is clear.
"All divine names and titles are applied to Him. He is called God, the mighty God, the great God, God over all; Jehovah; Lord; the Lord of lords and the King of kings.
All divine attributes are ascribed to Him. He is declared to be omnipresent, omniscient, almighty, and immutable, the same yesterday, today, and forever.
He is set forth as the creator and upholder and ruler of the universe. All things were created by Him and for Him; and by Him all things consist.
He is the object of worship to all intelligent creatures, even the highest; all the angels (i.e., all creatures between man and God) are commanded to prostrate themselves before Him.
He is the object of all the religious sentiments; of reverence, love, faith, and devotion.
To Him men and angels are responsible for their character and conduct. He required that men should honour Him as they honoured the Father; that they should exercise the same faith in Him that they do in God.
He declares that He and the Father are one; that those who had seen Him had seen the Father also.
He calls all men unto Him; promises to forgive their sins; to send them the Holy Spirit; to give them rest and peace; to raise them up at the last day; and to give them eternal life.
God is not more, and cannot promise more, or do more than Christ is said to be, to promise, and to do.
He has, therefore, been the Christian’s God from the beginning, in all ages and in all places."
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
So again, are WE all God now also?
Huh? how do you equate the two verse. this verse is not saying we are made gods its saying the Holy Spirit living in us and working through us(manifested) will be given to every believer and is profitable to them.. how does that equate to God becoming flesh. Incarnate.. the word manifest was not used..
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
the word made here is--
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
the word manifested you sited in 1 cor 12:7 means--
phanerōsis
fan-er'-o-sis
From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation.
Jesus being born as a man is not manifistation but incarnation, becoming a man..
Look at Jesus titles given in the OT..
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, -------
Everlasting---- ‛ad ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
Father-
'âb
awb
A primitive word; father in a literal and immediate, or figurative and remote application: - chief, (fore-) father ([-less]), X patrimony, principal. Compare names in "Abi-"
The Prince of Peace.
Explain why one of His titles is Everlasting never ending Father? lets not mistake that everything thats ever been created was created by and through Jesus. Jesus is not a creation...
Sorry but i have no choice but to reject your teaching as unbiblical...Jesus Deity is without question. Scripture is clear.
"All divine names and titles are applied to Him. He is called God, the mighty God, the great God, God over all; Jehovah; Lord; the Lord of lords and the King of kings.
All divine attributes are ascribed to Him. He is declared to be omnipresent, omniscient, almighty, and immutable, the same yesterday, today, and forever.
He is set forth as the creator and upholder and ruler of the universe. All things were created by Him and for Him; and by Him all things consist.
He is the object of worship to all intelligent creatures, even the highest; all the angels (i.e., all creatures between man and God) are commanded to prostrate themselves before Him.
He is the object of all the religious sentiments; of reverence, love, faith, and devotion.
To Him men and angels are responsible for their character and conduct. He required that men should honour Him as they honoured the Father; that they should exercise the same faith in Him that they do in God.
He declares that He and the Father are one; that those who had seen Him had seen the Father also.
He calls all men unto Him; promises to forgive their sins; to send them the Holy Spirit; to give them rest and peace; to raise them up at the last day; and to give them eternal life.
God is not more, and cannot promise more, or do more than Christ is said to be, to promise, and to do.
He has, therefore, been the Christian’s God from the beginning, in all ages and in all places."
Scripture that God is three "persons", please. 
And you're saying Jesus was the Father and the Holy Spirit?
And you're saying Jesus was the Father and the Holy Spirit?
Hi Pneuma,
You obviously do not understand thre tiune position, if you think that we say Jesus is the Father etc. So why do you argue. Would it not be a good idea to leanr what it is your polemic is against before ranting of ill thought out caricatures?
I will of course refer you back to John 17:5. Now can you actually explain the personal pronouns, becasue to date you have not.
Many thanks
Phil
Hi LBG,
It is because of your false beleif about who Jesus is that you do not understand this text. I find it strange that you think those who believe the bible actually think this means 'everything' means God? Remember Christ is one with the Father, and co equal for all eternity, yet subordinate to the Father, in that He does the Fathers will.
So can you tell me LBG, what do you think this text means.
Do you think there are 2 God's, God the Father and then another God the Son? who forgives your sins LBG, because only the one true God can forgive sins, yet you have already stated in an earlier post it is Jesus. So are you confused a little bit?
What god do you pray to? which god is it, it gets a little confusing LBG, is it God the Father or another god that you call Jesus?
Have a nice day LBG.
It is because of your false beleif about who Jesus is that you do not understand this text. I find it strange that you think those who believe the bible actually think this means 'everything' means God? Remember Christ is one with the Father, and co equal for all eternity, yet subordinate to the Father, in that He does the Fathers will.
So can you tell me LBG, what do you think this text means.
Do you think there are 2 God's, God the Father and then another God the Son? who forgives your sins LBG, because only the one true God can forgive sins, yet you have already stated in an earlier post it is Jesus. So are you confused a little bit?
What god do you pray to? which god is it, it gets a little confusing LBG, is it God the Father or another god that you call Jesus?
Have a nice day LBG.
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Well, this is a perfect example of you not answering questions put to you.
I ask you to explain the verses quoted(1 Cor 15:24-28) and you respond by asking me what the text means. I get no explanation at all, but simply more questions put to me. And this after I had answered your questions.
Am I correct that you are taking a theology course? And you have considered becoming a minister?
You see I have never taken a theology course and I am not thinking of becoming a minister, I doubt I have the intellect for all that.
But I am answering your questions, you on the other hand never answer any of mine.
I do wonder if that course you are on is not doing you much good. You ask questions, when they are replied to and questions are put to you, you have no answer.
But you come back with more questions suggesting I am confused, OK!
As I told you when I amswered your previous questions. A fair debate is that BOTH people in it answer each others questions. When you answer the questions I put to you I have already said I will continue to answer yours
How would youi get on as a minister if you ignore the questions people put to you?
I have studued no theology, simply read the Bible, if you cannot answer my questions, I fear you may be heading for trouble if you aim to be a minister
I ask you to explain the verses quoted(1 Cor 15:24-28) and you respond by asking me what the text means. I get no explanation at all, but simply more questions put to me. And this after I had answered your questions.
Am I correct that you are taking a theology course? And you have considered becoming a minister?
You see I have never taken a theology course and I am not thinking of becoming a minister, I doubt I have the intellect for all that.
But I am answering your questions, you on the other hand never answer any of mine.
I do wonder if that course you are on is not doing you much good. You ask questions, when they are replied to and questions are put to you, you have no answer.
But you come back with more questions suggesting I am confused, OK!
As I told you when I amswered your previous questions. A fair debate is that BOTH people in it answer each others questions. When you answer the questions I put to you I have already said I will continue to answer yours
How would youi get on as a minister if you ignore the questions people put to you?
I have studued no theology, simply read the Bible, if you cannot answer my questions, I fear you may be heading for trouble if you aim to be a minister
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And as you know these questions have already been answered. But because you cannot reply to the questions asked of you it is always the same. Try and deflect from that fact by the above type of comment.
Such is the tactics of those who cannot scripturally defend their position concerning questions put to them
Such is the tactics of those who cannot scripturally defend their position concerning questions put to them
As a previous Trinitarian Pastor, I'm well aware of what Trinity doctrine is; and I wasn't presenting an ill-thought-out caricature. I was illustrating a point, not misunderstanding Trinity. I said Trinis only present 1/3 of God manifest in the flesh. You said that was a new religion, when it's Trinitarianism.
Do you insist that the Father and the Holy Spirit were manifest in the flesh also? Were all three God-persons manifest in the flesh? You don't understand the ramifications of multiple distinct whole persons as being the fullness of God in one Incarnation. Trinity is either only 1/3 of God manifest in the flesh, or all three God-persons manifest in the flesh.
Perichoresis and other layers of man-made doctrinal "extensions" don't account for these difficulties. At some point, threeness has to become a more literal oneness than Trinity callisthenics can accomodate and represent. You just don't/won't/can't see those limitations.
I directly addressed those personal pronouns. If you understood all the various God-models, you would have understood my answer. The procreative act of the Virgin Birth produced the God-man with a rational soul and a spirit. I contrasted it to a Unitarian view of the Incarnation with the caveat of maintaining God's Divine substance. While Incarnate, the Son had the same human traits and capacity to address God as "you/your" as any man. It wasn't Jesus' divine will as a separate God-person that was praying for the cup to pass.
Jesus was God's WORD made flesh. That Word was the entire Rhema Divine Content AND the Logos Divine Expression. That Word was God. It contained God's Divine substance, making Jesus the express image of that substance.
The Logos was God's OWN Logos Word. HE spoke it. The Logos wasn't a separate person. The Logos was God's OWN person, manifest as the prosopon of Jesus.
Do you insist that the Father and the Holy Spirit were manifest in the flesh also? Were all three God-persons manifest in the flesh? You don't understand the ramifications of multiple distinct whole persons as being the fullness of God in one Incarnation. Trinity is either only 1/3 of God manifest in the flesh, or all three God-persons manifest in the flesh.
Perichoresis and other layers of man-made doctrinal "extensions" don't account for these difficulties. At some point, threeness has to become a more literal oneness than Trinity callisthenics can accomodate and represent. You just don't/won't/can't see those limitations.
I directly addressed those personal pronouns. If you understood all the various God-models, you would have understood my answer. The procreative act of the Virgin Birth produced the God-man with a rational soul and a spirit. I contrasted it to a Unitarian view of the Incarnation with the caveat of maintaining God's Divine substance. While Incarnate, the Son had the same human traits and capacity to address God as "you/your" as any man. It wasn't Jesus' divine will as a separate God-person that was praying for the cup to pass.
Jesus was God's WORD made flesh. That Word was the entire Rhema Divine Content AND the Logos Divine Expression. That Word was God. It contained God's Divine substance, making Jesus the express image of that substance.
The Logos was God's OWN Logos Word. HE spoke it. The Logos wasn't a separate person. The Logos was God's OWN person, manifest as the prosopon of Jesus.
And... I forgot...
Scripture that God is three "persons", please.
If you are a Sola Scriptura Protestant, there is no way around this like the Catho-Orthos and their blind assent to tradition. Do you disaffirm Sola Scriptura?
Why do you continue to evade this? I'm a reasonable man. Just say "Trinity is inferred. I believe those inferences based on men's teachings. I disregard the Word says God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son."
I've clearly answered what you asked, whether or not you understand or agree. Please reciprocate.
Where is Scripture that God is three "persons", please?!