Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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John was taken up in the Spirit to be shown what the church will go through in the future.
The 24 elders are in heaven already (no rapture here).
All of Revelation was written to be testified in the churches (Revelation 22:16) so that the churches can be prepared for these things that will come to pass.
The 24 elders are in heaven already (no rapture here).
All of Revelation was written to be testified in the churches (Revelation 22:16) so that the churches can be prepared for these things that will come to pass.
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Yes I believe my KJV bible just as its written below, "Caught Up" at the future "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ in the heavens.
1 THessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 THessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
As clear as mud.
You've completely ignored my post #66
I reiterate,
Saints being in heaven. IS NOT PROOF that the scene in heaven MUST BE post rapture.
BECAUSE There ARE SAINTS IN HEAVEN NOW.
Church members already populate heaven. Church people in heaven DOES NOT indicate proof that they are "raptured" church members.
This imaginary pillar of proof for a pre-tribulation rapture is nothing but a pile of rubble.
It's a primary argument for the pre-trib rapture peddled for years which simply doesn't stand and I will not accept.
It's dishonest.
The Biblical narrative must be followed rather than extra-biblical doctrine.
The Church are believers.
They are present on the earth in Rev 6:11 (The 5th seal) Rev 12:17 Rev 13:7 & 9 for a start
You've completely ignored my post #66
I reiterate,
Saints being in heaven. IS NOT PROOF that the scene in heaven MUST BE post rapture.
BECAUSE There ARE SAINTS IN HEAVEN NOW.
Church members already populate heaven. Church people in heaven DOES NOT indicate proof that they are "raptured" church members.
This imaginary pillar of proof for a pre-tribulation rapture is nothing but a pile of rubble.
It's a primary argument for the pre-trib rapture peddled for years which simply doesn't stand and I will not accept.
It's dishonest.
The Biblical narrative must be followed rather than extra-biblical doctrine.
The Church are believers.
They are present on the earth in Rev 6:11 (The 5th seal) Rev 12:17 Rev 13:7 & 9 for a start
Christ is reigning in the hearts of mankind as kingdom of priests.. The idea of the second coming is the closing of the gospel gates .It has been opened from when Jesus first said; "it is finished" it left the graves empty. He is not coming like in the day of Noah a temporal display as to the warning on the last day .The day the ressurection gates will close .Same twinkle of the eye day we receive our propmised bodies.
But a mid or post tribulation gathering does pose a problem.
The first seal being opened initiates God's wrath. Since Jesus satisfied God's wrath on behalf of all believers, then we cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which means that the Lord will gather His church prior to the on-set of His wrath. That said, the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. To be even clearer, you cannot have the church gathered mid-trib, because it would mean that the church would go through 3 1/2 years of God's wrath. And if you make it post trib, that would put the church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which we are not appointed to suffer.
It is a simple matter of taking into consideration all scriptures pertaining to end--time events. Just remember this, the church cannot go through any of God's wrath, because Jesus already satisfied it.
First of all, the bride is not saved by her works. But she will receive rewards for her righteous acts. It is very important to understand this. For elsewhere scripture states that we are saved by grace through faith and this not by our own efforts. It is the gift of God, not by works. IF salvation was earned by our works, then it is not longer a gift. So the fine linen, white and clean that the bride receives, is for our righteous acts which are the result of our faith.
We are saved by grace through faith. We perform good works, not for salvation, but to glorify God. Salvation has already been secured by what Jesus did and not by what we do.
The tribulation (last seven years) is all God's wrath. It is also known as "the Day of the Lord," which is a day of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. Scripture states that after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth, he is angry. This does not mean that this time period is the wrath of Satan. He just happens to get angry during the time of God's wrath. The reference to Satan knowing that his 'time is short' is referring to the fact that, he and his angels are cast out of heaven in the middle of the seven years and so he knows that he only has 3 1/2 years left before Jesus returns and he is thrown into the Abyss. Everything that happens during the entire seven years is God's wrath, regardless of what Satan or anyone else does. It is God's specified time of wrath. People made up the "Satan's wrath" thing so that they could use it to support their belief that the church will go through God's wrath. It's all a lie! Satan started it and gave these false teachings to a few and then just sat back and watched it spread like a virus.
Heard this and have contended against it many times before. What you and others are not taking into consideration is that, the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have would come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. The coming wrath of God is completely different from this, as it will be wrath coming directly from God. To be clear, though apostles and first century church suffered persecution and death, this was not from the wrath of God. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God, will be unprecedented events unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.
This is incorrect! The reference to "unless those days were shortened no one would be left alive, is in reference to all of the inhabitants of the earth. In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prescribed time, no one would be left alive.
[quoteThe great tribulation is the devil's wrath because the devil is literally on the earth and knows his time is short, according to Revelation 12:12 "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, l rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, forthe devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”[/quote]
I already gave you the answer to Satan's time being short and that he just angry from being cast out. It does not mean that it is the time of his wrath. All of the events that take place will be the results of God's wrath, even the things that Satan, the beast and the false prophet do. But it is during God's wrath in which they will perform their acts.
The great white throne judgment will be God's judgement for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments come first and will be carried out during that seven year period which is the wrath of God. Below is one example of where the bowl judgments are referred to God's wrath:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, the bowl judgments are said to be the last seven plagues, because with them, God's wrath is completed. Since these seven bowls are last, then other wrath would have had to come before them. If you say, "I was last in line in the grocery store" it means that there were other people in front of you. It is the same here. Since the bowl judgments are last, then other judgments of wrath will have had to come before them, namely, the seals and the trumpets.
The wrath of God has been prophesied by the prophets of old as the Day of the Lord and must be fulfilled and that prior to the great white throne. The book of Revelation is a detailed account of the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus was already held accountable for the wrath due for every believer. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon us.
Heard this and have contended against it many times before. What you and others are not taking into consideration is that, the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have would come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. The coming wrath of God is completely different from this, as it will be wrath coming directly from God. To be clear, though apostles and first century church suffered persecution and death, this was not from the wrath of God. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God, will be unprecedented events unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.
This is incorrect! The reference to "unless those days were shortened no one would be left alive, is in reference to all of the inhabitants of the earth. In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prescribed time, no one would be left alive.
[quoteThe great tribulation is the devil's wrath because the devil is literally on the earth and knows his time is short, according to Revelation 12:12 "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, l rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, forthe devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”[/quote]
I already gave you the answer to Satan's time being short and that he just angry from being cast out. It does not mean that it is the time of his wrath. All of the events that take place will be the results of God's wrath, even the things that Satan, the beast and the false prophet do. But it is during God's wrath in which they will perform their acts.
The great white throne judgment will be God's judgement for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments come first and will be carried out during that seven year period which is the wrath of God. Below is one example of where the bowl judgments are referred to God's wrath:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, the bowl judgments are said to be the last seven plagues, because with them, God's wrath is completed. Since these seven bowls are last, then other wrath would have had to come before them. If you say, "I was last in line in the grocery store" it means that there were other people in front of you. It is the same here. Since the bowl judgments are last, then other judgments of wrath will have had to come before them, namely, the seals and the trumpets.
The wrath of God has been prophesied by the prophets of old as the Day of the Lord and must be fulfilled and that prior to the great white throne. The book of Revelation is a detailed account of the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus was already held accountable for the wrath due for every believer. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon us.