I like your way of explanation: "A person comes into initial salvation without works".
We are called to obedience, but works won’t save. Please explain.
- Thread starter Blik
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Evidently you missed reading and studying Romans chapter 4. But then again, the Catholic Church is thoroughly confused about justification by grace through faith.
I think it says it all in this verse
to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
Obedience from faith and for his names sake We are not saved nor do we show our salvation through works alone lest anyone boast, but the purpose and the motive and reason for the works is the deciding factor. The law was never gone but the chains of it was, instead of following the law under the heavy burden of doing so or be condemned we joyfully wirte it on our hearts and act on it we find freedom in it and are made alive in it because the law is no longer a heavy stone to carry rather a stone to firmly stand on.
The reason it doesn't save is because of the change of the way it works, it gives life and jpoy in the hearts of his children and they gladly act on it because that is the product of faith. I find no greater joy than when I follow his commands with my heart and I do so for not for myself but for his sake and the sake of others, my days are brighter I am more joyful and at peace I feel as if my soul is being fed good food all in all things are better when I do this
Just read it more slowly, there's your answer.
Faith in Jesus (salvation) produces obedience. We love Him because He first loved us. So there is an inner change, and as you go, Jesus manifests more in you. This happens because you believed that Jesus is a capable Shepherd and He would bring you to the land of promise, and finish the good work He started in you (Philippians 1:6). In fact, we are told to rest from our works (Hebrews 4) because our works aren't good by default. So your new nature in Christ does things that are normal to this new nature. It becomes a normal thing to help others, and abnormal to turn your head away. So is this "work"? "Lord, when did we see you hungry, visited you??? etc" They aren't aware they did these works because it's the Spirit in them who lived in them and worked.
Trying to earn bargaining chips will never work out well with God. This is buying and selling and God despises this. And it's why salvation is a free gift. There's a lot of talk about winning or losing our "rewards" too, the more I'm looking at it, I am realizing this also isn't Scriptural, the Scripture only talks about works surviving into eternal life vs perishable works that are burnt up. Each worker in the vineyard got the same pay at the end of the day (eternal life).
There is no accumulating merits with God, because there's NOTHING to be gained, aside from God Himself. Loving others is a reward in itself. It's our fleshly minds that expect some extra "rewards". We are so far removed from God's mindset and always want to get something out of things. A few months ago I was looking at "inheritance" in the Bible and I found it said that God Himself is our inheritance, and also we are His inheritance. It comes down to love, and nothing more. People who are not with this program, and want to buy and sell, will be cast out.
B
Bede
Guest
Not confused at all.
And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace (Council of trent, Decree on Justification - my emboldening)
Evidently you didn't read my post #7
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives several definitions of work. The first and most general is:
“activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.”
By this definition “believing” and “confessing with the lips” is work.
Indeed Jesus says that believing is a work.
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
(John 6:29)
Believing is something we DO.
And I quoted from Rom 4.
And the very next section says this: "...no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God." So that statement in fact contradicts salvation by grace through faith. And then later:
"...it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost".
So this is NOT the biblical doctrine of justification by grace through faith.
That depends on what you think faith is. If you have faith in the Lord it isn't only faith in the Lord's ability to save you. Even the demons have this faith. You have faith in all of the Lord including His instructions to you.
It is my understanding from the book of James that faith without works is a dead faith that benefits no one.
This is a bit of deflection. Of course we study what John writes in the light of the teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus, Yeshua, teaches the law as fulfilled by Him is not destroyed and will be in existence while there issun and moon.
Paul, in Romans, teaches that our faith establishes the law. In Revelation we are taught to obey God-s commandments.
WAhen we study the Word, from Genesis, and we understand what Jesus, Yeshua, has clarified and fulfilled, we know the remain laws make up the two great laws for the raminaing laws obeyed according to our Savior do just that.
Do not teach against any of the laws which make up love. If we obey the law to love our Maker, the reast are there. Study what Jesus, Yeshua, teaches, and by that I men study and make reference to the Old Testament at all times and it will be sweet and pece/filled for the law and the prophets point to Jesus, Yeshua.
B
Bede
Guest
B
Bede
Guest
Also when you quote kindly give the whole sentence not a clipped version.
For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
And
"...it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost".
What is wrong with that?
It has everything to do with how we define "faith" as a work of Christ that works in us, as to where does it come from. If we offer it as a work coming from us performing some religious tradition used as a shadow .Then we are offering dead faith. That came from us who are dead in tresses passes and sin the first death that we are appointed to. . The dead offering self edifying things of the dead.
They would be the faithless ones that crucify Christ over and over as if one demonstration of the Father and the Son fell short of the glory of God.
Hebrews 6:1-2 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith "toward" God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Better things other than self edification (Look I did it) accompany salvation .
Hebrews 6:9-10 King James Version (KJV) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Toward his name as he faithfully works in us .Not by the shadows. Look I did it.
It is always faith that saves in both ot and nt. But before Paul revealed the mystery, works were required on our part to show that we have faith in God.
Even Hebrews listed all the works that the saints did, by faith.
Only in romans 3:21 we read that but now, the righteousness apart from the law had appeared. Now we show faith by ceasing from all works, because that is what God commanded in romans 4:5
Do you have any Scripture to back up this assertion that demons have faith they will be saved?
Please do not give the one about demons believing God exists.
My Bible teaches that there’s no salvation for the demons,
even though they assent to the truth that there is one God.
The old testament walked by the faith of Christ that worked in them just as us or Jesus the Son of man , Of ourselves nothing. We come with nothing, nada (no faith ) Faith is the gift of works (Christ's)
We show faith be giving God the glory as His faith works in us
Jesus IS Christ IS the Son of Man. It is incorrect to separate them as though the faith of Christ is distinct from the person of Jesus.
I don't think there is anywhere it says demons think they will be saved, nor did I say this. Demons know of the POWER of Christ to save. I could find that scripture, but I think you know of it. Demons are also not humans.
Humans can also have faith in the ability of Christ to save but choose to not repent of their sins. Their choice is to keep their sin rather than give it to Christ for cleansing.
Then my fingers were unattached to my mind! Thank the Lord you weren't taken in by something not the truth. Scripture is the only authority, isn't it?I highlighted where you said it