The 2nd Commandment and Images of Jesus

garee · Jun 24, 2020

Bede said:

I would say the law of your fathers that usurps the law of our one Holy Father not seen .Is ignorant faithless .Can't serve tw Masters for one teaching authority .The law of the fathers make the law of God without effect.

There are over 3500 and rising workers with a familiar spirit and growing. There a is a idol image idol (teraphim ) available for each one. In that way when the legion comes up .Men can deceive themselves they have to proper one to do the job.

Bede · Jun 25, 2020

Blik said:

All the laws given at Sinai and expressed in the the books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers are the "Law of Moses". The Jews recognise 613 laws.
All those Laws (including the Ten Commandments) were laws for the Mosaic Covenant and ended as laws when the Covenant ended.

No, that does not mean we can murder etc. God has eternal moral laws that are valid for all people for all time. Some of those moral laws were codified for the Israelites as the 10 Commandments as part of their law..
Murder was wrong before the Ten Commandments were given to Israel (e.g. Cain & Abel) and continues to be wrong.

We still use the Ten Commandments today because they are a useful expression of (for the most part) of God eternal moral law. But not all of the Ten Commandments are moral laws.

Bede · Jun 25, 2020

garee said:

I would say the law of your fathers that usurps the law of our one Holy Father not seen .Is ignorant faithless .Can't serve tw Masters for one teaching authority .The law of the fathers make the law of God without effect.

There are over 3500 and rising workers with a familiar spirit and growing. There a is a idol image idol (teraphim ) available for each one. In that way when the legion comes up .Men can deceive themselves they have to proper one to do the job.

I guess English is not your first language.

oldethennew · Jun 25, 2020

Moral God = Moral Laws...

p_rehbein · Jun 25, 2020

Blik said:

I do listen to the Law. I listen to the Law as established by Christ when He was here on earth given through His Gospel. It is the Law of Faith! As for the Law of the 1st Covenant, that Law was fulfilled! The 1st Covenant waxed and grew old and was replaced with the New Covenant Grace...........

You say "they say" regarding the Law of the 1st Covenant........... you do realize that it IS IN SCRIPTURE?

Hebrews, Chapter 8

1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Now, IF you choose to try and live by the Law of the 1st Covenant, that's fine with me. I just feel sorry for you because NO MAN can receive eternal lift through the Law of the 1st Covenant...............

p_rehbein · Jun 25, 2020

oldethennew said:

those Laws being in both the Law of the 1st and New Covenants...........they being the 10 Commandments.........

Bede · Jun 25, 2020

p_rehbein said:

Many moral laws are in the Ten Commandments but others are not.
Not all in the Ten Commandments is moral law. For example 7th day sabbath keeping is not a moral law, neither is the making of images.

garee · Jun 25, 2020

Bede said:

I guess the bible God's book of law has no place according to the legion of father. . book of their law. Can't serve two teaching Masters .Regardless of what the law book of Catholic father (worship able) says .Most people know the difference between Devine not seen and the corrupted seen. You would have to close your eyes not to see it.

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 80
www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/80.htm
Catechism of the Catholic Church. 80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".

What kind of fashion to they come together a .The catholic fathers fashion fashion after corrupted man seen?

Which master will you seek the approval of today by rightly dividing His DEVINE book Not the Catholic book of law . We already know whose approval they seek after. Devine flesh and blood.

garee · Jun 25, 2020

Bede said:

Using images or teraphims "family idols" like that of Rachel which she hid from her father, used to commune with the dead, In order to put a face on the Catholic workers with a familiar spirit (patron saint 3500 and rising) picking up approval speed as legion of fathers. It has already been made to no effect .Can't serve necromancy and sola scriptura .

No man can serve two masters as one teaching authority

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

Bede · Jun 25, 2020

garee said:

Using images or teraphims "family idols" like that of Rachel which she hid from her father, used to commune with the dead, In order to put a face on the Catholic workers with a familiar spirit (patron saint 3500 and rising) picking up approval speed as legion of fathers. It has already been made to no effect .Can't serve necromancy and sola scriptura .

No man can serve two masters as one teaching authority

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

We are not involved in necromancy. That is forbidden.

Bede · Jun 25, 2020

[QUOTE="garee, post: 4297158, member: 237842".Can't serve necromancy and sola scriptura .
.[/QUOTE]

I don't want to serve either.
Sola scripture is an unbiblical doctrine.

Blik · Jun 25, 2020

Bede said:

Your blank statement that you know all the laws given in what amounts to the old testament are the laws of Moses puts a new meaning into the word of God.

When I thought this I could make no sense of the word, for I knew that all scripture was from the same eternal God, a God we could rely on to tell us truth and did not ever change. Yet there are scriptures saying the laws as Moses gave them are eternal, are of God, and do not change and other scripture saying the law of Moses was no more. It took me months to understand they were both scripture and both true. I decided the way Paul thought of the law of Moses must be the key, and I went through five history books put out by Yale to find out what people of Paul's day said was the law of Moses.

The OT is scripture, it is true. What is NOT true is that Paul called all law from the OT the law of Moses. If that were true then we would need to toss out all scripture tells us of God, and if we did that Christ would also have to go if we followed through with our human reasoning.

Dino246 · Jun 25, 2020

Bede said:

FYI, English IS his first language.

presidente · Jun 25, 2020

I do not want to have a 3-D image of Christ in my home.

My understanding is that the 10 commandments say not to make a carved image, and the ark was made out of beaten gold.

WithinReason · Jun 26, 2020

NotmebutHim said:

Statues, paintings, and those things aren't 'images' of Jesus, as they cannot ever represent Him, a living Person. The real 'images' of Jesus, are the true Christians, living persons, who have the character of Christ Jesus in thought, word and action.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

2Co_3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Php_2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Rev_14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev_22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

WithinReason · Jun 26, 2020

Bede said:

Necromancy - interesting topic:

Prycejosh1987 · Jul 22, 2020

NotmebutHim said:

Its idolatry because there is no insight in scripture into what Jesus actually looked like. Its bears no relevance to faith and what it is either.

Batyah · Jul 22, 2020

JaumeJ said:

Correct. The problem with humans though is that we covet what we see.
For me, keeping an image of even my Lord in human form takes my eyes off Him spiritually. He is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit. Not only is there no need for physical trinkets and icons and crucifix' in worship, but it also tends to keep us focused on earthly things. Anything that we incorporate into our worship services that delights one of the five senses can get in the way of a true spiritual relationship with the Father. There are many snares and traps in imagery and Satan loves to use whatever he can to distract us from the Kingdom. Look at how addicted humans are to social media. Even Christians fall into that trap. It promotes vanity and many forms of worldliness that may seem fairly innocuous to the untrained eye.
Someone I know and love and who loves the Lord treasures her picture of Jesus. Long haired hippy looking white guy.
I cannot begin to explain to her how that image hinders her walk and her growth. Some aren't ready for meat. Some aren't ready to give up the man contrived traditions indoctrinated into them from early days in Sunday School.

Idolatry is extremely subtle and takes many forms. It does not require a bended knee and admission of admiration. The most common false idol that man is guilty of using to replace the One True God who alone is worthy to be praised is SELF.

JaumeJ · Jul 22, 2020

Batyah said:

Correct. The problem with humans though is that we covet what we see.
For me, keeping an image of even my Lord in human form takes my eyes off Him spiritually. He is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit. Not only is there no need for physical trinkets and icons and crucifix' in worship, but it also tends to keep us focused on earthly things. Anything that we incorporate into our worship services that delights one of the five senses can get in the way of a true spiritual relationship with the Father. There are many snares and traps in imagery and Satan loves to use whatever he can to distract us from the Kingdom. Look at how addicted humans are to social media. Even Christians fall into that trap. It promotes vanity and many forms of worldliness that may seem fairly innocuous to the untrained eye.
Someone I know and love and who loves the Lord treasures her picture of Jesus. Long haired hippy looking white guy.
I cannot begin to explain to her how that image hinders her walk and her growth. Some aren't ready for meat. Some aren't ready to give up the man contrived traditions indoctrinated into them from early days in Sunday School.

Idolatry is extremely subtle and takes many forms. It does not require a bended knee and admission of admiration. The most common false idol that man is guilty of using to replace the One True God who alone is worthy to be praised is SELF.

In my own experience I have never been able to wear a cross for it is the Son Whom we ought to worship, and n ever a crucifix for He is rison......... It is just not natural to the Spirit.

Locoponydirtman · Jul 23, 2020

NotmebutHim said:

Exodus 20:4-6 NKJV:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

Clearly, the 2nd commandment forbids making carved images of anything for the purpose of worship.

However, we do have various types of images of Jesus as we understand and assume that He appeared when He was a Man on earth.

And of course, those who lived during Jesus' time saw what He looked like in human form.

There are some, though, who say that having any image of Jesus is tantamount to idolatry and therefore also a violation of the 2nd commandment.

Personally, I don't feel that it's automatically idolatry (although one can make an image of Jesus into an idol). I say that because some people actually did see what Jesus looked like. Also because I believe that the prohibition against carved images was because God knew that man would try to make an image to represent Him or some other god. And one of the times that did happen was the golden calf incident.

My question is: why do some say that it's idolatry to have images of Jesus today?

Thanks!

This was one of Luther's arguments, that iconism had gone too far in the RCC. That while it was ok to have the icons, it was taken to idolatry. Icon should simply be reminders.

The 2nd Commandment and Images of Jesus

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