PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

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Jul 23, 2018
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Look at verse 27. Proves Abraham already intervened first in verse 25 that you did not post. So God never freely offered He was planning on sparing anyone to Abraham. Abraham just went directly to God and interceded. You chose not to add Abraham's initial action because it REFUTES your entire argument. But don't worry, I know the story very well and could see your intent 100 miles away ;)
Lot delivered pre trib

All the if and maybes around it are ifs and maybes
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Look at verse 27. Proves Abraham already intervened first in verse 25 that you did not post. So God never freely offered He was planning on sparing anyone to Abraham. Abraham just went directly to God and interceded. You chose not to add Abraham's initial action because it REFUTES your entire argument. But don't worry, I know the story very well and could see your intent 100 miles away ;)
Where do you see anything pointing to your supposed theory?
God stated his position.
Nothing about a changed mind.

Would you jump off a roof for
$100 yes

For $50 yes

For $10 yes

To you someone changed someone's mind.

You made up the changed mind deal.
 

Truth7t7

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I did not say anything about Christians not being elect. But the issue was regarding the elect during the Great Tribulation (which does not pertain to the Church).
Your claim is false

Elect during the tribulation pertains to those who were elected to (Salvation) by the finished work on Calvary, 100% the Church.

You espouse the false teaching in dispensationalism known as (Dual Covenant Theology) God has one people and one covenant (The Church)
 
Apr 5, 2020
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Truth7t7

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Example:

The majority of Believers around the world are starving to death and skin and bones.
In America, the majority of Believers are so obese, they whine when mcdonalds makes their hamburger wrong!

We will PAY!

Guaranteed!
I believe your claim that "Saved Believers" are starving is contrary to God's words as seen below?

I fully agree that Believers in the world are being persecuted and even killed for their faith, but not starving.

Matthew 6:25-34KJV
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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I believe your claim that "Saved Believers" are starving is contrary to God's words as seen below?

I fully agree that Believers in the world are being persecuted and even killed for their faith, but not starving.

Matthew 6:25-34KJV
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.



Even in the Old Testament the widow and son had just enough food to eat 1 more time and die. But Elijah still insisted on her making him some food first.

I have read where Middle Eastern Nations, Asian Nations, etc. are very hard on Christians and have withheld many things from them trying to force them back to the Nation's sect beliefs.

Even in Russia many Jewish believers in God are suffering.

It's hard to fathom such things when we can hop into our car and grab a dollar mcdouble 24/7/365.
 

Truth7t7

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Even in the Old Testament the widow and son had just enough food to eat 1 more time and die. But Elijah still insisted on her making him some food first.

I have read where Middle Eastern Nations, Asian Nations, etc. are very hard on Christians and have withheld many things from them trying to force them back to the Nation's sect beliefs.

Even in Russia many Jewish believers in God are suffering.

It's hard to fathom such things when we can hop into our car and grab a dollar mcdouble 24/7/365.
I fully agree that America dosent know what religious persecution is.

Yes there are many Believers in the world who are persecuted and killed, Iran, China, North Korea, to mention a few.
 
S

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Download the 800 page verse by verse commentary on the book "Apocalypse: Lectures on Revelation" By Joseph A Seiss.
It can be found on different sites since it is over 100 years old and in the public domain.
https://archive.org/details/apocalypseaseri01seisgoog

You may not agree with every single interpretation but you will be impressed by most of them. I have yet to see anyone do a better job of presenting scriptures for their reasons. His approach is that you can understand Revelation without knowing any history except for the history that is in the bible. That scripture interprets scripture. It is a pre tribulation pre millennial interpretation. I have read post tribulation views that do not do as good a job presenting their heremeneutics as Joseph A Seiss does. So far I think he wins in a debate. I am not saying I agree with every interpretation. I am just saying that those who believe in post tribulation should read this commentary and present their side using scripture the way he does rather than spending so much of their arguments on when pre trib view became popular and other non persuasive tactics.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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and present their side using scripture the way he does rather than spending so much of their arguments on when pre trib view became popular and other non persuasive tactics.
Agreed. (y)

The problem comes in, when those presenting the "opposite" viewpoint believe they ARE presenting the Scriptures... (except, they are all jumbled up! i.e. pieced together incorrectly so as to make one big mish-mash of mush. ;) lol )
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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Download the 800 page verse by verse commentary on the book "Apocalypse: Lectures on Revelation" By Joseph A Seiss.
It can be found on different sites since it is over 100 years old and in the public domain.
https://archive.org/details/apocalypseaseri01seisgoog

You may not agree with every single interpretation but you will be impressed by most of them. I have yet to see anyone do a better job of presenting scriptures for their reasons. His approach is that you can understand Revelation without knowing any history except for the history that is in the bible. That scripture interprets scripture. It is a pre tribulation pre millennial interpretation. I have read post tribulation views that do not do as good a job presenting their heremeneutics as Joseph A Seiss does. So far I think he wins in a debate. I am not saying I agree with every interpretation. I am just saying that those who believe in post tribulation should read this commentary and present their side using scripture the way he does rather than spending so much of their arguments on when pre trib view became popular and other non persuasive tactics.
I agree 100% scripture interprets itself :)

The greatest scripture quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to falsely claim a (pre-trib) rapture, is nothing more than the second coming of Jesus Christ, and the "Last Day Resurrection" of the believer.

1. The Lord Himself descends from heaven
2. The Dead in Christ shall rise first


1 Thess 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumph of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day" simple, will you now bend and twist the scripture, regarding the meaning of "The Last Day" or perhaps pretend as if it dosent exist :)

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
 
S

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Agreed. (y)

The problem comes in, when those presenting the "opposite" viewpoint believe they ARE presenting the Scriptures... (except, they are all jumbled up! i.e. pieced together incorrectly so as to make one big mish-mash of mush. ;) lol )
Yes, and it is always the interpretation that follows all the common sense rules of hermeneutics that will persuade me. Which are a generally agreed upon list such as Usage, Context, Syntax, Historical background or culture, theological context, and several others depending on where you get your list from, but they all sort of overlap and include similar concepts that just make common sense. When they don't it is pretty easy to spot which rule you are ignoring or violating if your intellectually honest. I am not saying that it is easy to figure out the book of Revelation nor am I going to be dogmatic about a pre trib view verses a post trib view but I am not going to be convinced by anything less that proper hermeneutics.
 
S

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I agree 100% scripture interprets itself :)

The greatest scripture quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to falsely claim a (pre-trib) rapture, is nothing more than the second coming of Jesus Christ, and the "Last Day Resurrection" of the believer.

1. The Lord Himself descends from heaven
2. The Dead in Christ shall rise first


1 Thess 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumph of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day" simple, will you now bend and twist the scripture, regarding the meaning of "The Last Day" or perhaps pretend as if it dosent exist :)

John 6:40KJV

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
I don't think it is a matter of people bending or twisting or pretending the Last Day is not in scripture. It is a matter of interpreting what scripture means when it talks about the The Last Day. You seem so convinced that the prophesy of the Last Day is a final 24 hour day but when you examine all the scriptures on the subject the Great Day of His Wrath in Revelation covers more than one day so this MUST be taken into consideration. They start saying that The Great Day of his wrath has come and then many judgments are poured out which cover more than one day, and yet it is all called the DAY of THE LORD in prophesy. This is not difficult to see when all of the scriptures that use that phrase are laid out for your examination. Therefore it is not possible to prove a point based on only a couple of verses that use this phrase while ignoring all others that shed more light as to its meaning.
 

Truth7t7

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I don't think it is a matter of people bending or twisting or pretending the Last Day is not in scripture. It is a matter of interpreting what scripture means when it talks about the The Last Day. You seem so convinced that the prophesy of the Last Day is a final 24 hour day but when you examine all the scriptures on the subject the Great Day of His Wrath in Revelation covers more than one day so this MUST be taken into consideration. They start saying that The Great Day of his wrath has come and then many judgments are poured out which cover more than one day, and yet it is all called the DAY of THE LORD in prophesy. This is not difficult to see when all of the scriptures that use that phrase are laid out for your examination. Therefore it is not possible to prove a point based on only a couple of verses that use this phrase while ignoring all others that shed more light as to its meaning.
A little wiggle from the clear truth presented, gotta keep that pre-trib rapture alive :)

We will add 1 Corinthians 15:21-24 below, we clearly see the second coming, the last day resurrection?

(Then Cometh The End)

Will you now wiggle and remove God's clear words below concerning (The Last Day) resurrection?:eek:

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day" simple, will you now bend and twist the scripture, regarding the meaning of "The Last Day" or perhaps pretend as if it dosent exist :)

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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John 6:40KJV
40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I wish you would stop quoting only A PART of this section, by LEAVING OUT verse 39 which is saying a DISTINCT THING:

"39 Now this is the will of the One having sent Me, that all that [neuter] He has given Me, I should lose none of it [neuter], but will raise it [neuter] up in the last day."


[note v.40's "every one who [MASCULINE (grammatically)]" and "[raise] HIM [MASCULINE (grammatically)] up" shows that these verses are covering DISTINCT ITEMS... v.39 re: "THINGS" ('neuter') ; v.40 re: "PERSONS/SAINTS/BELIEVERS" ('masculine'), grammatically]
 
S

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A little wiggle from the clear truth presented, gotta keep that pre-trib rapture alive :)

We will add 1 Corinthians 15:21-24 below, we clearly see the second coming, the last day resurrection?

(Then Cometh The End)

Will you now wiggle and remove God's clear words below concerning (The Last Day) resurrection?:eek:

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day" simple, will you now bend and twist the scripture, regarding the meaning of "The Last Day" or perhaps pretend as if it dosent exist :)

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
ah...sigh...:rolleyes:
 

Truth7t7

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I wish you would stop quoting only A PART of this section, by LEAVING OUT verse 39 which is saying a DISTINCT THING:

"39 Now this is the will of the One having sent Me, that all that [neuter] He has given Me, I should lose none of it [neuter], but will raise it [neuter] up in the last day."


[note v.40's "every one who [MASCULINE (grammatically)]" and "[raise] HIM [MASCULINE (grammatically)] up" shows that these verses are covering DISTINCT ITEMS... v.39 re: "THINGS" ('neuter') ; v.40 re: "PERSONS/SAINTS/BELIEVERS" ('masculine'), grammatically]
My time honored 409 year old translation, the Holy Bible KJV clearly

(At The Last Day)

Perhaps your reading a children's amplified book that claims to be the Bible :)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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My time honored 409 year old translation, the Holy Bible KJV clearly
(At The Last Day)
Perhaps your reading a children's amplified book that claims to be the Bible :)
John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[ ^ enlargement emphasis mine; color original ^ ]

Aside from the fact that you are completely MISSING the POINT of my post,...

... I've not disagreed with "at the last day"... I disagree that "day" here means "a singular 24-hr day" (based on the OTHER things I was pointing out, both in that post and in past posts, but which you delight in bypassing;) ).

"day - G2250 - hemera" -

"[Strong's] Feminine (with hora implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of hedraios) meaning tame, i.e. Gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole aganaktesis hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context) -- age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years."



Also, wherever "the DAY of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in close proximity [/in the same CONTEXTS], they are referring to the SAME "time period" (not merely "a singular 24-hr day")... see Zech14 and the SEVERAL TIMES this latter phrase is used in that chapter as just ONE example of a LENGTHY TIME period being meant, NOT MERELY "a singular 24-hr day," when viewed as they should be, together in the same CONTEXTS (and this example is just the latter part of [the very lengthy ENTIRETY of] "the DOTL" as a WHOLE, other passages demonstrate its STARTING point being much earlier than this particular context shows [THIS context covering PRIMARILY the "BLESSING" aspect of it, which follows His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)]).
 

Truth7t7

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[ ^ enlargement emphasis mine; color original ^ ]

Aside from the fact that you are completely MISSING the POINT of my post,...

... I've not disagreed with "at the last day"... I disagree that "day" here means "a singular 24-hr day" (based on the OTHER things I was pointing out, both in that post and in past posts, but which you delight in bypassing;) ).

"day - G2250 - hemera" -

"[Strong's] Feminine (with hora implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of hedraios) meaning tame, i.e. Gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole aganaktesis hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context) -- age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years."



Also, wherever "the DAY of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in close proximity [/in the same CONTEXTS], they are referring to the SAME "time period" (not merely "a singular 24-hr day")... see Zech14 and the SEVERAL TIMES this latter phrase is used in that chapter as just ONE example of a LENGTHY TIME period being meant, NOT MERELY "a singular 24-hr day," when viewed as they should be, together in the same CONTEXTS (and this example is just the latter part of [the very lengthy ENTIRETY of] "the DOTL" as a WHOLE, other passages demonstrate its STARTING point being much earlier than this particular context shows [THIS context covering PRIMARILY the "BLESSING" aspect of it, which follows His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)]).
In Love

Once again for the fourth time, your responses are chaos, caps, large& small print, underline, polka dots, Mish Mash

Your getting there slowly, you stopped all the colors of the rainbow.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT to ADD to my post:


Zechariah 14:1 - "DAY of the Lord"

[notice the 7x that "IN THAT DAY" is in this entire chapter (in same context as the above verse re: "DOTL"), showing a LENGTHY TIME PERIOD, and NOT "a singular 24-hr day" merely]

Zechariah 14:4 - "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Zechariah 14:6 - "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:"

Zechariah 14:8 - "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."

Zechariah 14:9 - "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one." [not merely "a singular 24-hr day" ! ;) ]

Zechariah 14:13 - "And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour."

Zechariah 14:20 - "In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar."

Zechariah 14:21 - "Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts."
 

TheDivineWatermark

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In Love

Once again for the fourth time, your responses are chaos, caps, large& small print, underline, polka dots, Mish Mash

Your getting there slowly, you stopped all the colors of the rainbow.
...and you use "red" which is perfectly okay. No problems "reading" that. Got it.

Good to know. Thanks. ;)