THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY
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yup they are . Then why is Lordship salvation mostly connected to Calvinism. I don't think the penny's dropped for you yet . Think about it . why is Calvinism banging on about perseverance if they are the 'elect '..The elect a
Show me a Calvinst who doesn't believe that they have to endure to the end to be saved . What do you think Perseverence of the saints is ? ( or preservation of the saints as some prefer )
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Lol. Your funny man
show me a calvinist (pure) who teaches this? There are many here go ahead and call on them to answer
we have @Grandpa preacher4 truth and others. I have again spoke with many in my lifetime and never heard one claim it. So I a, sorry, some man Coming in here and making these claims is not going to convince me otherwise.l I mean your trying to put everyone under lordship, which proves you just do not even know what it is.
your are making the accusations against calvinists, bring those who are members in here who agree with you
show me a calvinist (pure) who teaches this? There are many here go ahead and call on them to answer
we have @Grandpa preacher4 truth and others. I have again spoke with many in my lifetime and never heard one claim it. So I a, sorry, some man Coming in here and making these claims is not going to convince me otherwise.l I mean your trying to put everyone under lordship, which proves you just do not even know what it is.
your are making the accusations against calvinists, bring those who are members in here who agree with you
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From John pipers church concerning regeneration
VI. REGENERATION
We believe that man was created by God in His own image; that he sinned and thereby incurred physical, spiritual and eternal death, which is separation from God; that as a consequence, all human beings are born with a sinful nature and are sinners by choice and therefore under condemnation. We believe that those who repent and forsake sin and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures, delivered from condemnation and receive eternal life.
while the term forsake sin is worry some and very lordship centered, no calvinist thinks a person is regenerated because of what they did
nice try
this is a baptist church much like a particular time in the baptist church I grew up In
we were not calvinist
VI. REGENERATION
We believe that man was created by God in His own image; that he sinned and thereby incurred physical, spiritual and eternal death, which is separation from God; that as a consequence, all human beings are born with a sinful nature and are sinners by choice and therefore under condemnation. We believe that those who repent and forsake sin and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures, delivered from condemnation and receive eternal life.
while the term forsake sin is worry some and very lordship centered, no calvinist thinks a person is regenerated because of what they did
nice try
this is a baptist church much like a particular time in the baptist church I grew up In
we were not calvinist
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Hello @throughfaith, here's a concise statement concerning perseverance from The Westminster Confession of Faith. This is what Calvinism teaches, in part. Saints, according to Calvinism, persevere in the faith (albeit imperfectly) because of God alone, not because of anything they choose to do apart from Him, or because of anything inherent (righteousness, strength, etc.) in themselves.
~Deut
Chapter XVII. Of the Perseverance of the Saints
Section I.–They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
Section II.–This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own freewill, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
Section III.–Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalise others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
/////////////////////////////////////////
Further,
1. The privilege of final perseverance is peculiar to true believers.
2. The perseverance of the saints is not owing to their inherent strength, or to any measure of grace they have already received, but solely to divine grace. We readily acknowledge, that in themselves they are utterly weak, and wholly insufficient to withstand the numerous and formidable enemy that are combined against them; such as Satan, the world, and the corruptions of their own hearts. If left to contend with their spiritual adversaries in their own strength, they would be easily overcome.
3. The perseverance of the saints does not secure them from partial falls, but from total and final apostasy. Our Confession admits, that believers may, "through the temptations of Satan, and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein.
4. The perseverance of the saints secures the preservation of the principle of grace in their souls, though it may greatly decay as to its exercise.
5. The perseverance of the saints is secured by the immutability of the decree of election.
6. It is secured by the merit of Christ's sufferings and death, Christ "purchased the Church with his own blood." The "iniquities" of all his people "were laid upon him," and, as their Surety, "he bore their sins in his own body on the tree." He sustained the full infliction of the curse which they deserved, and "obtained for them eternal redemption."
7. It is secured by the perpetuity and prevalence of Christ's intercession. As Christ purchased his people by the merit of his own blood, so "he ever liveth to make intercession" for them.
8. It is secured by the constant inhabitation of the Spirit.
9. It is secured by the unchangeable nature of the covenant of grace. This covenant, being founded in the grace of God, and not in our obedience, is "ordered in all things, and sure." The tenor of this covenant is clearly expressed: "I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jer. xxxii. 40.
~Shaw, Robert, Exposition on The Westminster Confession of Faith, Of the Perseverance of the Saints, excerpt
~Deut
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Of course you can, the Westminster Confession of Faith has been around for all to use since 1646 
The Westminster divines included Scripture references. If you'd like to see the Confession with the references, go here instead:
~Deut
The Westminster divines included Scripture references. If you'd like to see the Confession with the references, go here instead:
~Deut
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Hello again @throughfaith, if you'd like to hear a little bit more about Calvinism and the topic of perseverance from a modern source, here's a small part of what Dr. R. C. Sproul has to say about it.
~Deut
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.
We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.
I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.
We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.
The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.
I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God.
The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been ~preserved~. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.
~Deut
1 Thessalonians 5
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body
be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
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Hello again @throughfaith, if you'd like to hear a little bit more about Calvinism and the topic of perseverance from a modern source, here's a small part of what Dr. R. C. Sproul has to say about it.
~Deut
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.
We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.
I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.
We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.
The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.
I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God.
The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been ~preserved~. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.
~Deut
1 Thessalonians 5
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body
be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
"If you lose it, you never had it." This sounds very logical?
I've read enough of Dr. Sproul's writings to understand what he meant, but w/o that understanding/by itself, you're right, it doesn't sound "logical". Considering the length of the article, I believe it was written for Tabletalk Magazine, a monthly 6" x 9" publication that Dr. Sproul wrote the opening article for, and the opener was always just one side of one page (so there wasn't a lot of room for extensive details + they knew that those who purchased a subscription to Tabletalk Magazine would probably know what he meant, just like I did).
This opening to another one of his articles may help explain it a bit. It's actually part of a somewhat longer phrase or saying.
*~https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/more-conquerors/
Many grow up in the church and/or make a confession of faith, claiming and perhaps even believing that they are Christians because they do, but in reality, they aren't, because they've never come to actual, saving faith in the Lord Jesus (church attendance and confessions of faith do not save us, God does, as I'm sure you already know).
BTW, I was such a person, for 30 years!! I was baptized as an infant and raised in the church (so to speak). I went to Sunday School through the 6th grade, sung in the children's choir (and later in the adult choir), was confirmed, went on retreats, and I attended church regularly through high school, you know, the whole 9 yards. So I always ~thought~ I was a Christian (why wouldn't I have?) until the day I actually became one, that is, which is when EVERYTHING changed, PTL
The Bible has something to say about this (which is why Calvinism teaches what it does).
Matthew 7
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
1 John 2
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
I hope that helps a bit. If not, please let me know and I"ll try again.God bless you!
~Deut
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Whoops, I forgot to type in the verse number for one of the Scripture verses above. Sorry about that. It should have read as follows:
1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Hello again @throughfaith, if you'd like to hear a little bit more about Calvinism and the topic of perseverance from a modern source, here's a small part of what Dr. R. C. Sproul has to say about it.
~Deut
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.
We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.
I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.
We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.
The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.
I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God.
The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been ~preserved~. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.
~Deut
1 Thessalonians 5
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body
be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
My understanding of perseverance of the saints is that it has two levels of explanation. Its when its expounded on do we see the problem . Its there in the Westminster confession . But the issues are revealed when it is asked ' what do you mean by that ' ?
here's some quotes :
John Piper
I saw three things in a fresh light:
1. I saw afresh that the verb, “work out your salvation” (Greek katergazesthe) means produce, or bring about, or effect. And Peter O’Brien in his Philippians commentary sums it up with the phrase “continuous, sustained, strenuous effort.” As dangerous as this language is, it is biblical. “Bring about your salvation.” “Produce your salvation.” “Effect your salvation by continuous, sustained, strenuous, effort.”
( I act the miracle ) ref
Essential to the Christian life and necessary for final salvation is the killing of sin (Romans 8:13) and the pursuit of holiness (Hebrews 12:14). Mortification of sin, sanctification in holiness. But what makes that possible and pleasing to God? We put sin to death and we pursue holiness from a justified position where God is one hundred percent for us — already — by faith alone.
( does God really save us by faith alone by John piper )
What I hear is Perseverance is necessary for final salvation ,but its not our work its God who works in us . But its not passive its synergistic and requires our efforts . Therfore works are necessary for final salvation . I realise its not always presented like this ,but this is essentially what it is .
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I just meant in terms of sanctification. That its not just passive effort is required . /_/
Regeneration is a momentary act, bringing a person from spiritual death to life. It is exclusively God’s work. Sanctification is an ongoing process, dependent on God’s continuing action in the believer, and consisting of the believer’s continuous struggle against sin. God’s method of sanctification is neither activism (self-reliant activity) nor apathy (God-reliant passivity), but human effort dependent on God ///
R c sproul.
Then we could ask what if a person does not do the above ? They will have to say they were never truly saved .
Regeneration is a momentary act, bringing a person from spiritual death to life. It is exclusively God’s work. Sanctification is an ongoing process, dependent on God’s continuing action in the believer, and consisting of the believer’s continuous struggle against sin. God’s method of sanctification is neither activism (self-reliant activity) nor apathy (God-reliant passivity), but human effort dependent on God ///
R c sproul.
Then we could ask what if a person does not do the above ? They will have to say they were never truly saved .
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