Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[EleventhHour]

No.....it is not the world of believers....that is your False Calvinite embellishment....!

Calvin was a master of double speak and you are correct ... it is indeed false Calvinite with a modern twist.

He would affirm scripture in one passage, saying yes it means "world" but that "world" only meant no one until God sent His irresistible grace and doctrine of double predestination.

We shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How can that be true, when the context makes it clear that the "world" here is the whole world of humanity -- the human race? Calvin's commentary on John 3:16 confirms this. The sad thing is that Calvin failed to make this a part of his theology. Just like you, that is called wilful blindness.

CALVIN'S COMMENTARY (see Bible Hub)
16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish. And this order ought to be carefully observed; for such is the wicked ambition which belongs to our nature, that when the question relates to the origin of our salvation, we quickly form diabolical imaginations about our own merits. Accordingly, we imagine that God is reconciled to us, because he has reckoned us worthy that he should look upon us. But Scripture everywhere extols his pure and unmingled mercy, which sets aside all merits... And this is still more clear from what follows; for he adds, that God gave his Son to men, that they may not perish.

I have never consulted Calvin's writings, and what I have been told about them, I do not believe. Scripture proves scripture and should be our only source in gleaning the truth of Chris's doctrine. however, I do consult Greek concordances.

Thayer's concordance says the "world" in John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 cor 4:9, and 2 Cor 5:19, mean = any aggregate or general collections of particulas of any sort (used of believers only).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Harmonize..... you say more like a a cacophony.... a forced mess of changing plain words to fit a twisted dogma.

I hate being harsh but that is exactly what it is ..... from start to finish.

It changes the very nature of God.

Your personal estimation I assume. How about defending what you think to be true with scripture back up. You do realise, if you are a student of the scriptures, that in Jesus's days on earth, the majority of mankind made similar remarks as yours about the doctrine Jesus preached, even his own disciples said "this is a hard saying, who can know it".

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Calvin was a master of double speak and you are correct ... it is indeed false Calvinite with a modern twist.

He would affirm scripture in one passage, saying yes it means "world" but that "world" only meant no one until God sent His irresistible grace and doctrine of double predestination.

We shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921

On this forum, I have been accused of being a Calvin follower, but I have never consulted Calvin's writings, and what I have been told of him. I do not agree with. I believe that scripture proves scripture, and it should be our only source of gleaning the truth of Jesus's doctrine, with the revelation of the Holy Spirit. All scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine of Christ.

 

[EleventhHour]

On this forum, I have been accused of being a Calvin follower, but I have never consulted Calvin's writings, and what I have been told of him. I do not agree with. I believe that scripture proves scripture, and it should be our only source of gleaning the truth of Jesus's doctrine, with the revelation of the Holy Spirit. All scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine of Christ.

Whether you know his ideas or not ... "world of elect" is adding to what plainly written.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No it is not.

nothing in the passage would in any way make the context of world be those who believe.

he died for the world,

whoever in that world believes will never die but has eternal life (will live forever)

whoever in the world that believes is not condemned

whoever in that world who does not believe is condemned already

thatbis the context of thenworld and who is in it. you must follow the train of though. Plus as I said, if he just died for the elect he would have said so

Your quote "whoever in that world who does not believe is condemned already" reinforces the truth of the scripture, There is a world of believers, and, there is a world of non-believers.

He died for as many as his Father gave him, and those he died for, he will raise up at the last day, Matt 24:31, And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Whether you know his ideas or not ... "world of elect" is adding to what plainly written.

There is a world of believers, and, there is a world of non-believers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your quote "whoever in that world who does not believe is condemned already" reinforces the truth of the scripture, There is a world of believers, and, there is a world of non-believers.

He died for as many as his Father gave him, and those he died for, he will raise up at the last day, Matt 24:31, And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No he died for the world

yet he will not force the world to recieve his salvation

your adding things which are not written

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is a world of believers, and, there is a world of non-believers.

He was sent to the world of non believers so they could believe and relieve life

 

[dcontroversal]

The Lord has said that Without Me you can do nothing.

The Lord has said No one can come to me unless God draws him.

Therefore, it is EASY to see that although John 3:16 is presented to the whole world, only those drawn by God will be true believers.


Its just like the blessing and the curse. Do this and be blessed. Don't do it and be cursed. Well, working at doing it was impossible. There was no way to be blessed by working at the law. The Law is spiritual but all those who work at it are carnal.

The way to be blessed is to rest from your work at the law and abide in Christ.

No one understands this except those who have been to Christ. If you have been to Christ then you have been drawn by God...

It is easy to see that you and your Calvinite pals constantly contradict yourselves and the word of God....

The word is Kosmos, not world of believers.

God testifies by creation and the invisible

Jesus paid the sin debt of the WHOLE WORLD.

And SALVATION is OPEN to all that will COME, REASON AND BELIEVE!

Whosoever does not mean Calvin's proselytes!

 

[dcontroversal]

Yep. Its too bad more of us don't have them.

You got something right.....when you applied what you said to yourself!

 

[dcontroversal]

Now this is something I can see and agree. Yes it was to the whole world but
Only those drawn and taught by God will
Receive

However I will add. They still must react with faith. Apart from faith it is impossible

I cannot agree with everything he said and is why I rejected it...

Many called but few chosen contradicts his last statement.....If one has been called they have been drawn, but CHOSE to reject, deny, walk away....

Roman ruler
Rich young man
Many that we have all seen convicted by our witness and testimony.

 

[throughfaith]

You have to?

If you are saved you will. Its part of the gift of Salvation. Perseverance of the Saints. We are given endurance. We are given perseverance.

perfect . please take note of this comment , anyone who was questioning what I was saying . This is coming from a Calvinist .

 

[dcontroversal]

So tell us which is it .... irresistible grace or resistible grace or have you changed your mind?

What did you say about a broken clock to me?

They tap dance all over the place in order to maintain their false stance.......it is sickening how they skew truth or the definitions of words......!

 

[EleventhHour]

They tap dance all over the place in order to maintain their false stance.......it is sickening how they skew truth or the definitions of words......!

All I can say is "Amen" again and again........ and rather sad that some others refuse to see the tap dance.. that does not help sadly.

I say this because we need to be true to God's word and false doctrine is harmful to one's spiritual walk.

 

[dcontroversal]

He was sent to the world of non believers so they could believe and relieve life

Amen.....

There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not

The world lies in darkness

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

There is None good, no not one

Paul said, "Christ Jesus came to save SINNERS, of whom I am chief"

AND WHOSOEVER means exactly that.

Come, let us REASON TOGETHER God said......MEN must hear the gospel and make a cognative decision to RECEIVE IT.

As many as received HIM it states....to them GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE CHILDREN OF GOD.

CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY Joshua said........

From front to back the bible drips CHOICE!

the first Adam chose to eat the forbidden fruit

the second ADAM was given milk and honey that he may know to CHOOSE the good over the evil!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I cannot agree with everything he said and is why I rejected it...

Many called but few chosen contradicts his last statement.....If one has been called they have been drawn, but CHOSE to reject, deny, walk away....

Roman ruler
Rich young man
Many that we have all seen convicted by our witness and testimony.

I think it is wrong to reject what someone says just because of one thing, we need to find what we agree on and work from there to just outright reject everything will never lead to any useful conversation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

perfect . please take note of this comment , anyone who was questioning what I was saying . This is coming from a Calvinist .

Yep

and what did he say? He is given through christs power not his own.

thus he never has to question anything, it is all assured,

 

[dcontroversal]

Calvin was a master of double speak and you are correct ... it is indeed false Calvinite with a modern twist.

He would affirm scripture in one passage, saying yes it means "world" but that "world" only meant no one until God sent His irresistible grace and doctrine of double predestination.

We shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921

Sickening hey......what evil drips from the underlined above......

 

[throughfaith]

Yep

and what did he say? He is given through christs power not his own.

thus he never has to question anything, it is all assured,

I've said all along they believe its God working in them . it doesn't change the fact they are looking to their works as evidence of their election.