What About Saved by Grace?

soggykitten · Sep 12, 2020

Faith is a matter of trust, reliance, confidence, belief. "assent of the mind to the truth of a statement for which there is incomplete evidence,"
Therefore, faith in Christ is a matter of trusting, relying, on him as the guide, as holy spirit God who indwells us, the believers, as we navigate this world as having become new creations through him.
No longer are we our our consciousness or conscience a part of this world as pertains to the indulgences and occupations of the senses and sense of self, that we once held as sinners who felt separated from the source of our being and becoming (more).

If we believe we have to obey in order to remain in faith that would necessarily teach we have to obey in order to remain saved. That isn't scripture.

Certainly, our deeds as Christians are counted by God and shall be reviewed by him before us when we are judged by God after our death. Those deeds however were accomplished through the leading of the holy spirit in service to his kingdom. Those deeds, what some call works, do not insure we remain saved. However, they are a part of our having been saved. Because we would not have served God when we were sinners. That we serve God as Christians is part of the grace of God and that which Ephesians 2 speaks of and to.

8 For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift from God
9 (not of works, lest anyone should boast).
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works (deeds); which God has ordained, so that we would walk in them.

We do not labor or work in order to attain salvation. If we don't have to work to attain salvation why would we have to obey/work, in order to remain saved?

Deeds, works, are part of being saved. When we obey God's leading to serve him we are his servants, emissaries, on earth. As someone long ago once observed, the Christian may be the only Bible some people ever read.
How we behave and serve the kingdom is as bringing the passages of scripture to life before peoples eyes.
It is one thing to tell people about Christ. It is another thing to show them what Christ is and what he accomplishes in us.

DiscipleA · Sep 12, 2020

soggykitten said:

Beautiful. Poses an unstated question as to what that "statement" is.

soggykitten · Sep 12, 2020

DiscipleA said:

As pertains to our faith, that statement would be all that pertains to Christ and the assertions within the Gospel.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 12, 2020

DiscipleA said:

He has very definitely perverted the Gospel, and here is the evidence:

"Peter said to:
1. Repent
2. Water baptism
3. Receive Holy Ghost

Remember, Jesus said in John 3:5 "...Except a man be born of born or water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What happened to baptism in John 3:15? "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." [Note: it is being suggested that someone omitted "and be baptized" from this verse! Which is total nonsense]

We know God didn't remove baptism, so what happened?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

So what is the poster trying to promote? (1) That water baptism is necessary for salvation and (2) water baptism is necessary for the New Birth (regeneration).

AND BOTH THESE BELIEFS ARE FALSE, AND PART OF A FALSE GOSPEL.

In order to be properly understood Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:8 must be interpreted in the light of Acts 3:19, which connects repentance with the remission of sins.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Had Acts 2:38 been worded a little differently, there would have been no misunderstanding. But since Ephesians 2:8,9 was already quoted -- AND IT DOES NOT MENTION BAPTISM -- that in itself proves that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. And the water in John 3:5 is a metaphor for the Gospel, the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23-25)

So why did Mark 16:16 included "baptism"? Because the commandment of Christ in Matthew 28:19 was to baptize believers immediately, and then disciple them. Water baptism was meant to accompany salvation, not be a substitute for salvation by grace through faith.

DiscipleA · Sep 12, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

...believe AND be baptized to be saved.
To believe in him means to trust in him and his teachings. One of his teachings was about baptism. Read those versus together to get the whole story.

DiscipleA · Sep 12, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

....not be a substitute for salvation by baptism.

garee · Sep 12, 2020

throughfaith said:

Yes faith is the reward of Christ's faith a labor of his love. It does not waver between two opinions . yes or no.

garee · Sep 12, 2020

DiscipleA said:

To believe is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit of Christ. The teaching or anointing Spirit of God .

Water can get a person wet but it evaporates.

reneweddaybyday · Sep 12, 2020

Acts2 said:

Read the record in Genesis concerning Noah:

Genesis 6:

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

God's grace was extended to Noah before God gave instruction to build the ark.

Noah was saved by grace through faith and because of God's grace, God gave instruction to Noah to build the ark and Noah built the ark in order to save himself and his family.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

By faith, Noah believed what God told him about something he, nor anyone else at the time, had ever seen ... rain. It had never rained prior to the flood of Gen 7. God told Noah there would be rain which would flood the earth ... through faith Noah believed what God told him ... and through faith Noah built the ark as God gave instruction.

When Heb 11:7 says Noah was moved with fear, this "fear" was not fear as in afraid or scared. This "fear" is reverence, respect for God. Noah revered God and followed God's instructions. Heb 11:7 also tells us Noah was an heir of righteousness which is by faith.

Another example of Noah's faith is in 2 Peter 2:5 which tells us Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

We also are heirs through grace of God:

Titus 3:

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jackson123 · Sep 12, 2020

soggykitten said:

Faith is a matter of trust, reliance, confidence, belief. "assent of the mind to the truth of a statement for which there is incomplete evidence,"
Therefore, faith in Christ is a matter of trusting, relying, on him as the guide, as holy spirit God who indwells us, the believers, as we navigate this world as having become new creations through him.
No longer are we our our consciousness or conscience a part of this world as pertains to the indulgences and occupations of the senses and sense of self, that we once held as sinners who felt separated from the source of our being and becoming (more).

If we believe we have to obey in order to remain in faith that would necessarily teach we have to obey in order to remain saved. That isn't scripture.

Certainly, our deeds as Christians are counted by God and shall be reviewed by him before us when we are judged by God after our death. Those deeds however were accomplished through the leading of the holy spirit in service to his kingdom. Those deeds, what some call works, do not insure we remain saved. However, they are a part of our having been saved. Because we would not have served God when we were sinners. That we serve God as Christians is part of the grace of God and that which Ephesians 2 speaks of and to.

8 For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift from God
9 (not of works, lest anyone should boast).
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works (deeds); which God has ordained, so that we would walk in them.

We do not labor or work in order to attain salvation. If we don't have to work to attain salvation why would we have to obey/work, in order to remain saved?

Deeds, works, are part of being saved. When we obey God's leading to serve him we are his servants, emissaries, on earth. As someone long ago once observed, the Christian may be the only Bible some people ever read.
How we behave and serve the kingdom is as bringing the passages of scripture to life before peoples eyes.
It is one thing to tell people about Christ. It is another thing to show them what Christ is and what he accomplishes in us.

I agree, people in my church believe

Save by faith not by work, So murder adulterer as long as have faith are save only lose the reward.

garee · Sep 12, 2020

Jackson123 said:

The reward of Christ's labor of love is grace .

MessageOfTheCross · Sep 12, 2020

Acts2 said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The key to "saved by grace" is obedience.

God gave Noah specific instructions on how to build the ark.

God gave Moses specific instructions on how to build the Tabernacle.

And neither one was given any discretion or authority to by-pass those instructions. If Noah had deviated, the ark would have sunk. If Moses had deviated, the Glory and Presence of God would have never dwelled between the Cherubims.

Here are a few examples of obedience in response to very specific instructions...

John 9:11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.

Luke 17:12-14 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

Luke 5:4-6 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net. And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

2 Kings 5:9 So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. [10] And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.
[11] But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
[12] Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
[13] And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
[14] Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

Question: Was their obedience a "work"? Would they have received the miracle had they not "obeyed"? Jesus once told Peter to go catch a fish, and take the money from its mouth to pay tribute. He could have just spoke the word, and would have been as easy as breaking bread for the multitudes. However, that wouldn't have anything to do with us exercising our Faith, or being Obedient. Remember Naaman in the above scripture, at first he was wroth and went his way. He did not receive his miracle until after he obeyed his instruction according to the saying of the man of God.

At the birth of the New Testament Church in Acts chapter two, the apostles were all gathered together and were asked a very important question regarding how to be saved...

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

(verse 38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter said to:

1. Repent
2. Water baptism
3. Receive Holy Ghost

Remember, Jesus said in John 3:5 "...Except a man be born of born or water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What happened to baptism in John 3:15? "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

We know God didn't remove baptism, so what happened?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yes, there's the baptism.

If we are to be saved the New Testament way, we need to follow Peter's instructions and obey Acts 2:38 - which is not a work, it is Obedience.

The Believer is in Christ (Rom. 6:3-5). Therefore, we live by our Lord and Saviour Faith, His Obedience, His Love, His Works, and His Life.

It is not the Believer Faith that we live by.
It is not the Believer Obedience we live by.
It is not the Believer Love we live by.
It is not the Believer Works we live by.
It is not the Believer Life that we live by.
Gal. 2:20

And how do we do this? By receiving Grace through our Faith placed and maintained exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work at Calvary Cross where the victory was won. If you break this LAW - “The Law of the Spirit (Holy Spirit) of Life (Jesus Christ Life) in Christ Jesus (what Christ did at the Cross), Grace Stops immediately. Galatians 2:21, Galatians 5:2

soggykitten · Sep 12, 2020

DiscipleA said:

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. 10 For

“Whoever desires to love life
and see good days,
let him keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from speaking deceit;
11 let him turn away from evil and do good;
let him seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”
13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.

18 For Christ also suffered[b] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which[c] he went and proclaimed[d] to the spirits in prison, 20 because[e] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 13, 2020

Acts2 said:

yes from the first man who you see he was free , all he had to do was believe what God said about the forbidden fruit. What matters about faith is what God said . To Noah it was “ I’m going to flood the earth , Noah believed God and so he built the ark as God said to do. And so he became hier of the righteousness of faith .

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

for his grandson Abraham , it was God telling Abraham to go out and he’d later tell him where to go but he promised to bless him greatly . And Abraham believed and so he went out.

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we need to see first that God has our interests at heart , for Noah he was promised salvation and a new beginning. Abraham was promised to be father of many nations and his children would be as the dust of earth , and stars of heaven.

for us , we need to come to the Lord Jesus that way he didn’t come to destroy us for our sins , but save us from the coming earth through repentance. Somewhere man forgot God is wanting to save us , not wanting us to fail his words have and always will be life for man who believe the promises and so believe and obey the instructions

faith is our life , we don’t simply obey , we believe the promises Jesus makes , so like Noah we learn and grow in obedience always looking up

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

DiscipleA said:

He fulfulled them.

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

DiscipleA said:

He turned Eph 2 .8 on its head .

Acts2 · Sep 13, 2020

throughfaith said:

Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16). Jesus linked both belief and baptism together in the promise of salvation, showing that both are necessary. If we say baptism is not necessary, we amend the Lord’s statement to say, “He that believeth and is [not] baptized shall be saved.” Jesus did not discuss the situation of one who “believed” but refused baptism, for that is a contradiction in terms. He knew that if someone did not believe, he would not be baptized or that if he were baptized, his baptism without belief would be worthless. He knew a true believer would be baptized. By saying “He that believeth not shall be damned,” Jesus implicitly covered the case of one who would refuse baptism.

Acts 22:16 says, “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” God washes away sins at baptism when we call on His name. “But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (I Corinthians 6:11).

Nehemiah6 · Sep 13, 2020

DiscipleA said:

You are just like all those who hold to, and promote, false doctrines. You refuse to give up what is false and believe what is true, and then continue to push your spiritual poison. Which means that you are not really a disciple of Christ.

So for the last time, I will present the words of Christ Himself (John 11:25,26), since you have tried to make Him a liar: Jesus said unto her, I am The Resurrection, and The Life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Then we have this in the previous chapter (john 10:9): I am the Door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Does anyone see the word "baptism" or "baptized" in these passages?

What did Jesus mean when He said “I am the door” (John 10:7)?
...When Jesus says, “I am the door,” He is reiterating the fact that only through Him is salvation possible... One who believes the Gospel (Hebrews 11:6) and repents of sin (Luke 13:3) is assured of being in “the fold” and of having entered by “the door.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/I-am-the-door.html

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

Acts2 said:

Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16). Jesus linked both belief and baptism together in the promise of salvation, showing that both are necessary. If we say baptism is not necessary, we amend the Lord’s statement to say, “He that believeth and is [not] baptized shall be saved.” Jesus did not discuss the situation of one who “believed” but refused baptism, for that is a contradiction in terms. He knew that if someone did not believe, he would not be baptized or that if he were baptized, his baptism without belief would be worthless. He knew a true believer would be baptized. By saying “He that believeth not shall be damned,” Jesus implicitly covered the case of one who would refuse baptism.

Acts 22:16 says, “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” God washes away sins at baptism when we call on His name. “But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (I Corinthians 6:11).

Thats a little niave to say all those that were baptised believed . Many people are baptised today and they are not saved .

throughfaith · Sep 13, 2020

throughfaith said:

And its also niave to use the Acts of the Apostles for doctrine, with its 29 conversion accounts that don't match . Acts records what happened as the transitions happened . Miss that and you will not understand the rest of the new testament.

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