Bible study - anyone?

[Blik]

Originally, God had only given the Law to the Jews but, with the Righteousness of God that comes by faith through Jesus Christ - God has made His Righteousness available to ALL - Jew and Gentile that choose to believe the Truth when the Holy Spirit makes it known to them.

Thank you for this posting, it is truly wonderful.

But please think about your statement "God only gives the law to the Jews". In scripture the word transcribed as law does not always have the same meaning, and it is difficult to understand what scripture means when it tells us "law". Sometimes it is the things the people escaped from slavery in Egypt were told to do to help them obey the true law. James, the brother of Jesus, explained that God does not mean for gentiles to obey those things, but scripture does not designate which laws that was. Scripture tells us one is fleshly circumcision.

We can use reason to find what those things we are exempt from. We know hat all law is summed up in love. Each ten commandment is a way to express love, and that is the essence of true law. Fleshly circumcision is not an expression of love, we are not obliged to it.

Because scripture tells us we do not need to obey what is Jewish custom, we lump all Jewish custom as what we need not follow. Much of Jewish custom is based on the love of God and Man, so we need a better filter of what is custom we are exempt from.

We think of scripture as to the Jews only, if that is the truth of it, it would mean that God excludes much from us because of our parents. I don't think scripture tells us the God excludes anyone for being gentile. If you will use your concordance and look up scripture speaking of "strangers" or "sojourners" I think you would agree with me.

Also, it seems to me that much harm to the word has been done because sometimes people have labeled their fleshly thoughts as coming from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never adds or takes away from the word, for the Holy Spirit is one with the Lord. So we must be careful to check the spirits with scripture.

It also needs to be pointed out that although obedience is not what God looks at for grace, we cannot accept Christ within us and accept our disobedience. It is impossible for us to always obey, but our wanting to obey is possible and required.

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 4
1¶What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Which book ? New testament is a good place to start . Maybe romans ? Just post the verses and let the chaos begin lol

As one who has taught scripture for many years, picking a verse of scripture is death as it leads to proofreading which is taking a verse of scripture and making it say what you want it to say.

To get a good overall view the best way to study the word is by topic. I say this because the bible is its best commentary so go with topics like prayer, sanctification, etc, and then look up all the verses that talk about the topic, and that way you get a good overall view of it and it prevents you taking the scripture out of context.

For example, in Matthews 28 Jesus said Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. if you study the subject from that one verse you are going to get it all wrong. If you look at all the verses that talk about baptism you will be in for a big surprise.

And here is a tip for you. The New Testament believers went into all the know world making disciples, baptizing them in the name of.....

Over to you.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Which book ? New testament is a good place to start . Maybe romans ? Just post the verses and let the chaos begin lol

Ignore the previous post of mine.

As one who has taught scripture for many years, picking a verse of scripture is death as it leads to proofreading which is taking a verse of scripture and making it say what you want it to say.

To get a good overall view the best way to study the word is by topic. I say this because the bible is its best commentary so go with topics like prayer, sanctification, etc, and then look up all the verses that talk about the topic, and that way you get a good overall view of it and it prevents you taking the scripture out of context. And bearing in mind that the different books of the bible are written to different people so they may have a different context to each other.

For example, in Matthews 28 Jesus said Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. if you study the subject from that one verse you are going to get it all wrong. If you look at all the verses that talk about baptism you will be in for a big surprise.

And here is a tip for you. The New Testament believers went into all the know world making disciples, baptizing them in the name of.....

Over to you.

 

[throughfaith]

Ignore the previous post of mine.

As one who has taught scripture for many years, picking a verse of scripture is death as it leads to proofreading which is taking a verse of scripture and making it say what you want it to say.

To get a good overall view the best way to study the word is by topic. I say this because the bible is its best commentary so go with topics like prayer, sanctification, etc, and then look up all the verses that talk about the topic, and that way you get a good overall view of it and it prevents you taking the scripture out of context. And bearing in mind that the different books of the bible are written to different people so they may have a different context to each other.

For example, in Matthews 28 Jesus said Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. if you study the subject from that one verse you are going to get it all wrong. If you look at all the verses that talk about baptism you will be in for a big surprise.

And here is a tip for you. The New Testament believers went into all the know world making disciples, baptizing them in the name of.....

Over to you.

The issue with a topical bible study is its easier to miss the context and insert the bias and presups.

 

[throughfaith]

Ignore the previous post of mine.

As one who has taught scripture for many years, picking a verse of scripture is death as it leads to proofreading which is taking a verse of scripture and making it say what you want it to say.

To get a good overall view the best way to study the word is by topic. I say this because the bible is its best commentary so go with topics like prayer, sanctification, etc, and then look up all the verses that talk about the topic, and that way you get a good overall view of it and it prevents you taking the scripture out of context. And bearing in mind that the different books of the bible are written to different people so they may have a different context to each other.

For example, in Matthews 28 Jesus said Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. if you study the subject from that one verse you are going to get it all wrong. If you look at all the verses that talk about baptism you will be in for a big surprise.

And here is a tip for you. The New Testament believers went into all the know world making disciples, baptizing them in the name of.....

Over to you.

An example would be quoting that verse in a topical framework. You could miss a few points about the transition stages given as you go through the Gospels, Acts , Romans into the epistles. For example the disciples do not understand the Gospel as we known it until Mat 27 . And mathew 28 they still think its only to the Jews . They are suprised by the giving of the Spirit in Acts 11 which is years later .

 

[throughfaith]

As one who has taught scripture for many years, picking a verse of scripture is death as it leads to proofreading which is taking a verse of scripture and making it say what you want it to say.

To get a good overall view the best way to study the word is by topic. I say this because the bible is its best commentary so go with topics like prayer, sanctification, etc, and then look up all the verses that talk about the topic, and that way you get a good overall view of it and it prevents you taking the scripture out of context.

For example, in Matthews 28 Jesus said Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. if you study the subject from that one verse you are going to get it all wrong. If you look at all the verses that talk about baptism you will be in for a big surprise.

And here is a tip for you. The New Testament believers went into all the know world making disciples, baptizing them in the name of.....

Over to you.

I agree we shouldn't just pick a ' verse ' . That would be isolating a text from the context .

 

[Lafftur]

One reason establish the Law through faith is because we allow the Law to serve it’s purpose. To act as a mirror and a light to show us our need and to point us straight to Jesus.

Paul also said the Law is lawful if used lawfully. It is not for the righteous, but sinners. It either condemns (if we ignore it) or it points us to Jesus.

It seems to me that John the Baptist personified the work of the Law.

Hi OIC1965,

I agree that the Law will condemn us if we ignore it and never realize our sin. Also, I agree that the Law points us to our need for Jesus Christ because He is the ONLY ONE that could humanly fulfill the Law for us - we cannot do it.

I don't think John the Baptist personified the work of the Law because NO ONE is righteous and John the Baptist confessed that he needed Jesus to baptize him which means John needed remission for sins - probably because ALL born under Adam are born into sin - there is NONE righteous, not even one.

Jesus Christ was the ONLY human born by a virgin......and His Father is God and Jesus is the Word wrapped in flesh so, Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE that I would say is the "personified work of the Law."

 

[Lafftur]

Thank you for this posting, it is truly wonderful.

But please think about your statement "God only gives the law to the Jews". In scripture the word transcribed as law does not always have the same meaning, and it is difficult to understand what scripture means when it tells us "law". Sometimes it is the things the people escaped from slavery in Egypt were told to do to help them obey the true law. James, the brother of Jesus, explained that God does not mean for gentiles to obey those things, but scripture does not designate which laws that was. Scripture tells us one is fleshly circumcision.

We can use reason to find what those things we are exempt from. We know hat all law is summed up in love. Each ten commandment is a way to express love, and that is the essence of true law. Fleshly circumcision is not an expression of love, we are not obliged to it.

Because scripture tells us we do not need to obey what is Jewish custom, we lump all Jewish custom as what we need not follow. Much of Jewish custom is based on the love of God and Man, so we need a better filter of what is custom we are exempt from.

We think of scripture as to the Jews only, if that is the truth of it, it would mean that God excludes much from us because of our parents. I don't think scripture tells us the God excludes anyone for being gentile. If you will use your concordance and look up scripture speaking of "strangers" or "sojourners" I think you would agree with me.

Also, it seems to me that much harm to the word has been done because sometimes people have labeled their fleshly thoughts as coming from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never adds or takes away from the word, for the Holy Spirit is one with the Lord. So we must be careful to check the spirits with scripture.

It also needs to be pointed out that although obedience is not what God looks at for grace, we cannot accept Christ within us and accept our disobedience. It is impossible for us to always obey, but our wanting to obey is possible and required.

Hello Blik,

What "law" do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote Romans?

 

[Lafftur]

In the previous verses, Paul had just concluded that God is the ONLY ONE Righteous and the ONLY ONE that is just and the ONLY ONE that can justify all those that believe and receive by faith, the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ - the ONLY Savior for the whole world.

Now, Paul goes on to say....

Romans 3:27-31 (NKJV)
Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Paul is basically showing us that NO ONE can boast of their righteousness being good enough to save them because ONLY the Righteousness of God IN CHRIST can save us - we need the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ for Salvation.

There is NO Law that by obeying can save us. There is NO Work that by doing can save us. The ONLY Way is the Law of Faith in Jesus Christ the ONLY SAVIOR, there is NO OTHER.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Paul concludes that it is now obvious, ONLY by receiving Salvation by Faith in Jesus Christ can we be justified as saved by faith without our obedience to the written law that condemns us.

Jesus Christ did NOT come to abolish the Law but, to FULFILL it...for us! By receiving Jesus Christ by faith as Lord, Savior and King - we receive the Human Fulfillment of the Law and are credited with the Righteousness of God in Christ. THIS IS ONLY POSSIBLE WITH JESUS - apart from Him, we can do NOTHING.

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,

No one can boast that they have a higher status with God because BOTH Jew and Gentile are saved EXACTLY the same way - by Faith in Jesus Christ ALONE. They worship the SAME GOD.

30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Paul is referring to the Jew when he says, "..the circumcised by faith."

Paul is referring to the Gentiles when he says, "..the uncircumcised through faith."

Paul is acknowledging that there is a difference between the Jew and the Gentile but, it is the SAME GOD that declares them both righteous/justified according to their faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior.

Notice, God will justify the Jew BY faith and the Gentile will be justified THROUGH faith. This is because Paul understands that the Jew and the Gentile come to faith in Jesus Christ differently.

The Jews will believe by understanding all the writings of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms of David which foretold of the coming Messiah and the Jews will then embrace and recognize Him BY Faith that Jesus is the fulfillment of all that was written.

The Gentiles don't understand the Torah or Abraham or Moses or the Prophets or the Psalms and will believe by simply understanding there is ONE God and all people are sinners and Jesus Christ is the Savior - He is the only way that God has provided - His Blood and Body.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Paul realizes that some may misunderstand him and think he is saying that faith in Jesus Christ voids the obedience to the law but, he says, "NO! Absolutely NOT is the law voided. But, actually, the law is ESTABLISHED as needing to be fulfilled - that's why Jesus Christ had to come to Earth - the Word of God came, wrapped Himself in human flesh so the Law could be FULFILLED FOR US."

In Christ, the Law is established and fulfilled FOR US.
--------------------------------

That concludes Romans Chapter 3. Yay!!

 

[Blik]

Hello Blik,

What "law" do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote Romans?

I think that at the time that Paul was writing there was a lot of discussion in the streets about a decision that had been made by the leaders of the Jews about what they called the law of Moses. But I think that, based on months of plowing through history of that time rather than scripture. I compared that history with scripture and it seems to me it checks out.

Many of the Romans were attracted to the God the Jews were telling about and wanted to join. They were accepted and some became Jews, accepting the one true God. Others began pulling away, they couldn't give up the partying of the idol worshippers, and took Jews with them to the party. The heads of the Jews like Gamaliel made a list of 18 rules for converts to follow. History doesn't have that list, but it is spoken of in several histories written at those times. Among the rules was to be fleshly circumcise. Gentiles objected, and there was much protest of what was called the law of Moses.

James, the brother of Jesus agreed with Paul that the Lord did not require gentiles to obey these laws. But we are not given the laws that we are exempt from except for diet laws and fleshly circumcision.

However, I think we can know which laws we are exempt from by knowing that love is the base of all law. All 10 commandments are ways to express love. We are not exempt from Jewish customs that express love, it seems to me. I think these Jewish customs we are not required to follow is often spoken of by Paul as the Law of Moses.

 

[garee]

Two laws working together as one perfect law. The letter of the law, the Bible. What we see with our eyes. It can only produce death .

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

No escape. . all guilty.

The unseen law. . the law of faith .The law of new born again life. . . mixed with that seen the temporal . Together creates a Perfect or Complete law .The just and the justifier. The father and the Son . Or Moses the law giver and the prophets as those who come in the power of the Holy Spirt .Like John the Baptist representing the law faith. . passed from the prophet Elias . Again the power to believe. God not seen .

Matthew 11:13-15 King James Version (KJV) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The law and the prophets the two witnesses of God that make one perfect witness. . . greater than the witness of men the things seen, the temporal.

Psalms 19 shows the complete circuit as the perfect law .Apart from each other "death" no salvation..

You could say the work of Christ's faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Psalms 19; 6-11 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

It performs all those works listed above in us. The just, signified by Moses and justifier, signified by the prophets..

 

[Dino246]

Psalms 19 shows the complete circuit as the perfect law .Apart from each other "death" no salvation..

You could say the work of Christ's faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Psalms 19; 6-11 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

It's very important to consider the relevant CONTEXT of a passage.

Verse 4b: In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.

Verse 6 refers is talking about the sun, not the Law.

 

[Lafftur]

Hello Blik,

What "law" do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote Romans?

I think that at the time that Paul was writing there was a lot of discussion in the streets about a decision that had been made by the leaders of the Jews about what they called the law of Moses. But I think that, based on months of plowing through history of that time rather than scripture. I compared that history with scripture and it seems to me it checks out.

Many of the Romans were attracted to the God the Jews were telling about and wanted to join. They were accepted and some became Jews, accepting the one true God. Others began pulling away, they couldn't give up the partying of the idol worshippers, and took Jews with them to the party. The heads of the Jews like Gamaliel made a list of 18 rules for converts to follow. History doesn't have that list, but it is spoken of in several histories written at those times. Among the rules was to be fleshly circumcise. Gentiles objected, and there was much protest of what was called the law of Moses.

James, the brother of Jesus agreed with Paul that the Lord did not require gentiles to obey these laws. But we are not given the laws that we are exempt from except for diet laws and fleshly circumcision.

However, I think we can know which laws we are exempt from by knowing that love is the base of all law. All 10 commandments are ways to express love. We are not exempt from Jewish customs that express love, it seems to me. I think these Jewish customs we are not required to follow is often spoken of by Paul as the Law of Moses.

Well, So far in the first 3 chapters of Romans Paul is speaking to the Jews and Gentiles about the Law which the Jews would have understood to be the Torah (Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). In the Torah, there are instructions on ceremonial laws, dietary laws, civil laws, and the 10 commandments - perhaps there's more laws but, these are the only ones I am familiar with).

So, I think it would be safe to say that when Paul refers to the Law, or Letter of the Law, or the written Law he is speaking of the Torah.

However, the Gentiles would not be familiar with the Torah and find it odd. This matter was addressed in the following account:

Acts 15:22-29 (NKJV)
The Jerusalem Decree
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—

25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

In the gospel accounts Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment and just like you said:

"All 10 commandments are ways to express love. We are not exempt from Jewish customs that express love, it seems to me."

I do also agree with you concerning the greatest and the base of all law and commandments is Love. God's love for us and our love for God and others and ourselves - all in a balanced way pleasing in God's sight.

You're a blessing @Blik - I enjoy your passion for sharing God's Truth. You've got great insight!

 

[Lafftur]

Two laws working together as one perfect law. The letter of the law, the Bible. What we see with our eyes. It can only produce death .

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

No escape. . all guilty.

The unseen law. . the law of faith .The law of new born again life. . . mixed with that seen the temporal . Together creates a Perfect or Complete law .The just and the justifier. The father and the Son . Or Moses the law giver and the prophets as those who come in the power of the Holy Spirt .Like John the Baptist representing the law faith. . passed from the prophet Elias . Again the power to believe. God not seen .

Matthew 11:13-15 King James Version (KJV) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The law and the prophets the two witnesses of God that make one perfect witness. . . greater than the witness of men the things seen, the temporal.

Psalms 19 shows the complete circuit as the perfect law .Apart from each other "death" no salvation..

You could say the work of Christ's faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Psalms 19; 6-11 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

It performs all those works listed above in us. The just, signified by Moses and justifier, signified by the prophets..

Well, the MAIN TWO of all the twos that really need to be applied to our walk with God is The Word of God and The Holy Spirit of God - these TWO always agree and walk together. The Father sends His Word and His Spirit to accomplish His Will.

 

[Lafftur]

It's good to keep in mind as we're walking through Paul's letter to the Romans that Paul had been a Pharisee - he knew all about boasting in the works of the Law contained in the Torah, claiming Abraham as father, being circumcised as a sign of covenant, etc.......

Remember in a previous post, it took Jesus Christ personally to convert Paul and afterwards anywhere from 3 years to 14 more years for the Lord Himself to teach Paul the True meaning and understanding of the Torah and Jesus Christ's fulfillment of it.

Paul had been taught the Torah and all the writings of the Prophets and Psalms under Gamaliel yet, he did not know or recognize Jesus Christ as Messiah.........because it would take faith - heavenly knowledge that cannot be denied and is only revealed by the Holy Spirit.....Jesus Christ is the Righteousness of God for us that comes by faith, NOT the works of the law.

Acts 22:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

 

[Blik]

[/QUOTE] It seems to me that there had to be an explanation for what scripture teaches about law because we can find scripture telling us that we are to let Christ be within us, and that would mean wanting to obey law and other scripture telling us we are not under the law of Moses. If the law of Moses is such as the 10 commandments, there is a conflict. We know both cannot be true and yet we can rely on the truth of the word. If we see a conflict then we know it is our understanding, there is no conflict in the word. Yet there was scripture that did not agree with scripture if the law of Moses was given in the 10 commandments.

Scripture tells us that we can rely on Paul giving us the truth of the Lord. Paul was accused by the Jews of not agreeing with scripture and even in Paul's time it was proven that Paul never taught anything that was contrary to scripture.

I think it is up to us to find the answer, and resolve the conflict. That is why I devoted all my study time for months to finding the answer to this conflict.

It's good to keep in mind as we're walking through Paul's letter to the Romans that Paul had been a Pharisee - he knew all about boasting in the works of the Law contained in the Torah, claiming Abraham as father, being circumcised as a sign of covenant, etc.......

Remember in a previous post, it took Jesus Christ personally to convert Paul and afterwards anywhere from 3 years to 14 more years for the Lord Himself to teach Paul the True meaning and understanding of the Torah and Jesus Christ's fulfillment of it.

Paul had been taught the Torah and all the writings of the Prophets and Psalms under Gamaliel yet, he did not know or recognize Jesus Christ as Messiah.........because it would take faith - heavenly knowledge that cannot be denied and is only revealed by the Holy Spirit.....Jesus Christ is the Righteousness of God for us that comes by faith, NOT the works of the law.

Acts 22:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

Don't you think God used the knowledge that Paul had of the Torah and that thorough knowledge of Paul's was one of the reasons he was chosen to be an apostle to gentiles? The Torah is God's truth and even converted gentiles did not have the background of it needed to see what Christ fulfilled.

I had a problem with Paul because I read scripture he wrote about law that seemed to be contrary to other scripture. I knew it was not Paul who contracted himself and other scripture but it was my understanding. It was simple to understand that if we were under law for forgiveness we would have to obey it all, we are under the grace of the Lord. That does not mean we are not to listen to law. But Paul wrote that the law is holy, and he also wrote it was to show us our sin. Paul spoke of obedience and putting on Christ within us, and also of not listening to the Law of Moses. If the law of Moses includes laws that show love there is a definite conflict. In the truth there is no conflict.

 

[garee]

It's good to keep in mind as we're walking through Paul's letter to the Romans that Paul had been a Pharisee - he knew all about boasting in the works of the Law contained in the Torah, claiming Abraham as father, being circumcised as a sign of covenant, etc.......

Remember in a previous post, it took Jesus Christ personally to convert Paul and afterwards anywhere from 3 years to 14 more years for the Lord Himself to teach Paul the True meaning and understanding of the Torah and Jesus Christ's fulfillment of it.

Paul had been taught the Torah and all the writings of the Prophets and Psalms under Gamaliel yet, he did not know or recognize Jesus Christ as Messiah.........because it would take faith - heavenly knowledge that cannot be denied and is only revealed by the Holy Spirit.....Jesus Christ is the Righteousness of God for us that comes by faith, NOT the works of the law.

Acts 22:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

I would offer. It was not our one father in heaven's law that Saul was under. It was the law of the fathers, oral traditions of men that caused a false zeal for knowing God. The pagan foundation, out of sight out of mind. Because of that foundation the result was murdering the misperceived competition of those who walked by faith the unseen eternal law as it is written .

They held to what they call scared traditions of the fathers a higher authority that all things written in the law and the prophets. (sola scriptural )

When Paul had become born again a member of the Nazarene denomination they from his previous sect the Pharisees sought to kill him (out of sight out of mind). But they could not prove sola scriptura . . .all things written in the law and the prophets was heresy and their law of men the scared law. Paul informed them as that what they call heresy (sola scriptura) he worshipped the God of the fathers. Unlike them that had no faith coming from scripture who worshiped the fathers seen as if they were walking by faith the will of our one unseen father the scriptures.

This reveled again they had a zeal but not for our unseen father in heaven .They refused in that way to obey the commandment to call no man father on earth .

Note...God's (law) as it is written in the law and the prophets.
The (law) of men as oral traditions

Acts 22:3-5 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Acts 24: 5-6 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to "our law".

Acts 24:12-15 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

A hope toward God not seen .Not towards men seen as oral traditions of men. Law of the fathers. The same kind of law found in Catholiscim that comes with a Queen of heaven a carbon copy .Venerable men lording it over the non venerable pew sitters. The abomination of desolation.

 

[garee]

It seems to me that there had to be an explanation for what scripture teaches about law because we can find scripture telling us that we are to let Christ be within us, and that would mean wanting to obey law and other scripture telling us we are not under the law of Moses. If the law of Moses is such as the 10 commandments, there is a conflict. We know both cannot be true and yet we can rely on the truth of the word. If we see a conflict then we know it is our understanding, there is no conflict in the word. Yet there was scripture that did not agree with scripture if the law of Moses was given in the 10 commandments.

Scripture tells us that we can rely on Paul giving us the truth of the Lord. Paul was accused by the Jews of not agreeing with scripture and even in Paul's time it was proven that Paul never taught anything that was contrary to scripture.

I think it is up to us to find the answer, and resolve the conflict. That is why I devoted all my study time for months to finding the answer to this conflict.


Don't you think God used the knowledge that Paul had of the Torah and that thorough knowledge of Paul's was one of the reasons he was chosen to be an apostle to gentiles? The Torah is God's truth and even converted gentiles did not have the background of it needed to see what Christ fulfilled.

I had a problem with Paul because I read scripture he wrote about law that seemed to be contrary to other scripture. I knew it was not Paul who contracted himself and other scripture but it was my understanding. It was simple to understand that if we were under law for forgiveness we would have to obey it all, we are under the grace of the Lord. That does not mean we are not to listen to law. But Paul wrote that the law is holy, and he also wrote it was to show us our sin. Paul spoke of obedience and putting on Christ within us, and also of not listening to the Law of Moses. If the law of Moses includes laws that show love there is a definite conflict. In the truth there is no conflict. [/QUOTE]

I would suggest it is when men attach a human name to the law of God that things can go astray. (abomination of desolation )

Its the law of God, the "whole Bible" Not just the ten commandment the whole commandment ..or revelation.

The witness of God. No private interpretations as opinions of men called heresy as the witness of men . Not of Moses, not of the fathers like Abraham .

It is shown in one of the "think not" doctrines of Christ.

Matthew 3:8-9 King James Version (KJV) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And "think not" to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

The spiritual unseen house of God.

1 Peter 2:5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[Lafftur]

It's good to keep in mind as we're walking through Paul's letter to the Romans that Paul had been a Pharisee - he knew all about boasting in the works of the Law contained in the Torah, claiming Abraham as father, being circumcised as a sign of covenant, etc.......

Remember in a previous post, it took Jesus Christ personally to convert Paul and afterwards anywhere from 3 years to 14 more years for the Lord Himself to teach Paul the True meaning and understanding of the Torah and Jesus Christ's fulfillment of it.

Paul had been taught the Torah and all the writings of the Prophets and Psalms under Gamaliel yet, he did not know or recognize Jesus Christ as Messiah.........because it would take faith - heavenly knowledge that cannot be denied and is only revealed by the Holy Spirit.....Jesus Christ is the Righteousness of God for us that comes by faith, NOT the works of the law.

Acts 22:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

Don't you think God used the knowledge that Paul had of the Torah and that thorough knowledge of Paul's was one of the reasons he was chosen to be an apostle to gentiles?

The Torah is God's truth and even converted gentiles did not have the background of it needed to see what Christ fulfilled.

God's ways are so higher than ours, there is definitely a reason why God literally handpicked Paul for the Gentiles even though his head was full of all the knowledge of the Torah and his heart was for the Jews....yet, step back and look through God's eyes......what do you see?

I see a master plan! It would take someone like Paul to bridge the gap between the Jew and the Gentile - a special someone that would understand how to "engraft the branch of the Gentile into the Jewish branch."

Also, when the time of the Gentiles are ended and God turns his focus back to the Jews, it could be very possible that it will be the writings of Paul that lead the Jews to their Messiah.

So, yes definitely! God has used and will continue to use the knowledge that Paul had of the Torah and also Paul's knowledge of the Righteousness of God that is received by faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah, Hosanna, Savior, Lord and King.

I had a problem with Paul because I read scripture he wrote about law that seemed to be contrary to other scripture. I knew it was not Paul who contradicted himself and other scripture but, it was my understanding.

It was simple to understand that if we were under law for forgiveness we would have to obey it all, we are under the grace of the Lord. That does not mean we are not to listen to law. But Paul wrote that the law is holy, and he also wrote it was to show us our sin. Paul spoke of obedience and putting on Christ within us, and also of not listening to the Law of Moses. If the law of Moses includes laws that show love there is a definite conflict. In the truth there is no conflict.

It can be difficult to understand how the law contained in the Torah actually fits into the Gift of Salvation.....

It's easy to think that Jesus Christ completely took the law and threw it away when He died on the cross but, that is NOT True. The Law has not been thrown away, it has been FULFILLED by Jesus Christ FOR US.

So, the only way for us to fulfill the Law is to receive Jesus Christ's Blood and Body - by so doing, our sins are forgiven and the law is fulfilled! Hallelujah!! Hosanna! Jesus Christ is the Messiah, Savior, Lord and King of the Jews and Gentiles - and whosoever will come!

It's a joy to discuss scripture with you @Blik !