The problem of sin

[Deuteronomy]

I agree ..but just to work through this . What do we do with this verse .
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;?

Hmm, I'm not sure that I understand the reason for your question, however, v13-14 means that what the Lord Jesus did for us (during His life among us and by His death on the Cross) is the basis 1. for the forgiveness of our sins and 2. for the canceling of the (in this case) unpayable debt* that we owe to God for them.

*(χειρόγραφον - "handwriting of ordinances/certificate of debt" in v14 refers to the handwritten record of debt that has been cancelled because Jesus paid that debt for us/for believers).

~Deut

Colossians 2​

13 You, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, ​

14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This He set aside, nailing it to the Cross.​

​

 

[pottersclay]

Yes all sins have been bought by the Blood of our Savior, but not all seek to please Him nor to accept that free gift.

Saint I think there's a mistake here. Please read what you wrote.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello again @throughfaith, perhaps some of this is worth discussing at this point in your thread, since you and others have broached the subject of the Law of God in the life of believers. Actually, this takes a look at several purposes for the Law, in the life of both believers and unbelievers. What do you think (trying your best to set aside for the moment the fact that it was written by a Calvinist ).

I realize, knowing what you have told us you believe in the past here, that you are not going to agree with all of Dr. Sproul's commentary following the law's third purpose. Still, I do believe that you will agree with him about some of it, yes

​

THE THREEFOLD USE OF THE LAW​

​

Every Christian wrestles with the question, how does the Old Testament law relate to my life? Is the Old Testament law irrelevant to Christians or is there some sense in which we are still bound by portions of it? As the heresy of antinomianism becomes ever more pervasive in our culture, the need to answer these questions grows increasingly urgent.​

​

The Reformation was founded on grace and not upon law. Yet the law of God was not repudiated by the Reformers. John Calvin, for example, wrote what has become known as the “Threefold Use of the Law” in order to show the importance of the law for the Christian life.​

​

The first purpose of the law is to be a mirror. On the one hand, the law of God reflects and mirrors the perfect righteousness of God. The law tells us much about who God is. Perhaps more important, the law illumines human sinfulness. Augustine wrote, “The law orders, that we, after attempting to do what is ordered, and so feeling our weakness under the law, may learn to implore the help of grace.”2 The law highlights our weakness so that we might seek the strength found in Christ. Here the law acts as a severe schoolmaster who drives us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25).​

​

A second purpose for the law is the restraint of evil. The law, in and of itself, cannot change human hearts. It can, however, serve to protect the righteous from the unjust. Calvin says this purpose is “by means of its fearful denunciations and the consequent dread of punishment, to curb those who, unless forced, have no regard for rectitude and justice.”3 The law allows for a limited measure of justice on this earth, until the last judgment is realized.​

​

The third purpose of the law is to reveal what is pleasing to God. As born-again children of God, the law enlightens us as to what is pleasing to our Father, whom we seek to serve. The Christian delights in the law as God Himself delights in it. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). This is the highest function of the law, to serve as an instrument for the people of God to give Him honor and glory.​

​

By studying or meditating on the law of God, we attend the school of righteousness. We learn what pleases God and what offends Him. The moral law that God reveals in Scripture is always binding upon us. Our redemption is from the curse of God’s law, not from our duty to obey it. We are justified, not because of our obedience to the law, but in order that we may become obedient to God’s law. To love Christ is to keep His commandments. To love God is to obey His law.​

​

Summary​

1. The church today has been invaded by antinomianism, which weakens, rejects, or distorts the law of God.​

2. The law of God is a mirror of God’s holiness and our unrighteousness. It serves to reveal to us our need of a savior.​

3. The law of God is a restraint against sin.​

4. The law of God reveals what is pleasing and what is offensive to God.​

5. The Christian is to love the law of God and to obey the moral law of God.​

​

Biblical passages for reflection:​

Psalm 19:7-11​

Psalm 119:9-16​

Romans 7:7-25​

Romans 8:3-4​

1 Corinthians 7:19​

Galatians 3:24​

​

~Excerpt from Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith by R. C. Sproul © (Tyndale 1992)​

~Deut

 

[tourist]

When were our sins paid for? Was it at the cross or the moment we believed?

Were all sins paid for ,or only our past sins ?

Sin is transgression of the law ,did Jesus take away the law at the cross ?

Did God pour out his wrath due to us ,on Jesus ?

Did we recieve Christ's righteousness when we believed

Which verses support these questions?.

When Jesus died on the cross for our sins all of them were in the future. No, Jesus did not take away the law but rather paid the penalty for those that confess their sins and believe in Him. Apparently, the Father did indeed pour out His wrath due to us on the Son. I do believe that we receive Christ's righteousness when we believe.

 

[Deuteronomy]

All sins have been bought by the Blood of our Savior, but not all seek to please Him nor to accept that free gift.

Hello brother, if what you say is true (and we are talking about reasonable/rational/intelligent/fully-informed people here), why do you believe that most among us refuse to accept His gracious, free gift (having, of course, considered the consequences of not taking it)

IOW, if the same free will choice is given to all w/o exception (lets say the choice is between a milk shake and a glass of cyanide-laden Kool-Aid, or between eternal joy and happiness in Heaven and eternal darkness, pain and torment in the Lake of Fire), why do you think that a reasonable, rational person would EVER choose the latter (again, assuming that he/she was cognizant of what they were in for by making the latter choice)

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[throughfaith]

Hello again @throughfaith, perhaps some of this is worth discussing at this point in your thread, since you and others have broached the subject of the Law of God in the life of believers. Actually, this takes a look at several purposes for the Law, in the life of both believers and unbelievers. What do you think (trying your best to set aside for the moment the fact that it was written by a Calvinist ).

I realize, knowing what you have told us you believe in the past here, that you are not going to agree with all of Dr. Sproul's commentary following the law's third purpose. Still, I do believe that you will agree with him about some of it, yes

​

THE THREEFOLD USE OF THE LAW​

​

Every Christian wrestles with the question, how does the Old Testament law relate to my life? Is the Old Testament law irrelevant to Christians or is there some sense in which we are still bound by portions of it? As the heresy of antinomianism becomes ever more pervasive in our culture, the need to answer these questions grows increasingly urgent.​

​

The Reformation was founded on grace and not upon law. Yet the law of God was not repudiated by the Reformers. John Calvin, for example, wrote what has become known as the “Threefold Use of the Law” in order to show the importance of the law for the Christian life.​

​

The first purpose of the law is to be a mirror. On the one hand, the law of God reflects and mirrors the perfect righteousness of God. The law tells us much about who God is. Perhaps more important, the law illumines human sinfulness. Augustine wrote, “The law orders, that we, after attempting to do what is ordered, and so feeling our weakness under the law, may learn to implore the help of grace.”2 The law highlights our weakness so that we might seek the strength found in Christ. Here the law acts as a severe schoolmaster who drives us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25).​

​

A second purpose for the law is the restraint of evil. The law, in and of itself, cannot change human hearts. It can, however, serve to protect the righteous from the unjust. Calvin says this purpose is “by means of its fearful denunciations and the consequent dread of punishment, to curb those who, unless forced, have no regard for rectitude and justice.”3 The law allows for a limited measure of justice on this earth, until the last judgment is realized.​

​

The third purpose of the law is to reveal what is pleasing to God. As born-again children of God, the law enlightens us as to what is pleasing to our Father, whom we seek to serve. The Christian delights in the law as God Himself delights in it. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). This is the highest function of the law, to serve as an instrument for the people of God to give Him honor and glory.​

​

By studying or meditating on the law of God, we attend the school of righteousness. We learn what pleases God and what offends Him. The moral law that God reveals in Scripture is always binding upon us. Our redemption is from the curse of God’s law, not from our duty to obey it. We are justified, not because of our obedience to the law, but in order that we may become obedient to God’s law. To love Christ is to keep His commandments. To love God is to obey His law.​

​

Summary​

1. The church today has been invaded by antinomianism, which weakens, rejects, or distorts the law of God.​

2. The law of God is a mirror of God’s holiness and our unrighteousness. It serves to reveal to us our need of a savior.​

3. The law of God is a restraint against sin.​

4. The law of God reveals what is pleasing and what is offensive to God.​

5. The Christian is to love the law of God and to obey the moral law of God.​

​

Biblical passages for reflection:​

Psalm 19:7-11​

Psalm 119:9-16​

Romans 7:7-25​

Romans 8:3-4​

1 Corinthians 7:19​

Galatians 3:24​

​

~Excerpt from Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith by R. C. Sproul © (Tyndale 1992)​

~Deut

 

[Blade]

Its written behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. We seem to focus on "sins". So what is righteousness? How does one get this righteousness? This as I see it is the key. Its this righteousness that gives us the right to come boldly before Him. Its this righteousness that gives us the right to set in heavenly places.

I think and wonder, we don't talk about that because we don't understand them. How do you come boldly before Him? Or how do you sit in heavenly places "and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," This does in fact get passed over and not talked about. Its hard for some to go from the natural to the supernatural. What they see is all there is.. hmm

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

I don't know of any "sin" I can do that He did not already die for. What "sin" is He holding to your account? We know He can't die again. Knowing all this does not make it ok to sin. Yes we can still sin. That "sin" is still wrong.

So who is doing the sinning? Which you? If we can't tell the difference between the flesh vs spirit we have a problem. Whats the new man? More then some simple choice not to sin. That new man which after God is "created" in righteousness (that word again) and true holiness. We do know and understand our flesh has not been born again not made new right? This flesh.. will never ever enter heaven.

I am in right standing ..right now with my Father simple because I believe in His son. Its not what I did or do or will do. Its what Christ already did. God is faithful not to me but to what Christ already did. So my sin/sins are forgiven..gone. Yet I have no right to sin.. should not walk in sin and yet it still hurts Him. And knowing all this.. I have NEVER EVER wanted to freely sin. Sin.. the cost the wages of sin in this world equals death. My new spirit new man does not sin.. this flesh does. Its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me.

Are you this flesh? If you don't understand flesh vs spirit.. anyway.. this is what I believe. Its when I only saw how much sin I do and how my heart always convicts me.. and reading how I will never get anything from God because of this I wanted to quit. He only told me what is written. He asked me what is righteousness and how do you get righteousness. My not sinning will never make me righteous before Him. The only way I get to Him is by what Christ already did. I will not take any glory from that. Its never me.. its always Him. If Christ never died.. I could never come before Him.. He said I am the WAY .. that WAY is SO MUCH more then just a path to God. Hes the truth.. the life. Sorry getting lost .. love this.. praise GOD glory to Jesus ..

 

[throughfaith]

Hello brother, if what you say is true (and we are talking about reasonable/rational/intelligent/fully-informed people here), why do you believe that most among us refuse to accept His gracious, free gift (having, of course, considered the consequences of not taking it)

IOW, if the same free will choice is given to all w/o exception (lets say the choice is between a milk shake and a glass of cyanide-laden Kool-Aid, or between eternal joy and happiness in Heaven and eternal darkness, pain and torment in the Lake of Fire), why do you think that a reasonable, rational person would EVER choose the latter (again, assuming that he/she was cognizant of what they were in for by making the latter choice)

Thanks!

~Deut

Each person will be different in terms of their heart . They need to believe the truth so as to be saved .That should be our heart to warn unbelievers . So that we might save some as Paul said .

 

[lenna]

My not sinning will never make me righteous before Him. The only way I get to Him is by what Christ already did. I will not take any glory from that. Its never me.. its always Him. If Christ never died.. I could never come before Him.. He said I am the WAY .. that WAY is SO MUCH more then just a path to God. Hes the truth.. the life. Sorry getting lost .. love this.. praise GOD glory to Jesus ..

so appreciative of your post and this part in particular

amen! praise God and glory to Jesus!

 

[lenna]

Each person will be different in terms of their heart . They need to believe the truth so as to be saved .

Jesus said that HE is the truth

believe in Him.

 

[Blik]

The Lord makes the forgiveness of sin available to everyone, but every person must choose whether or not they will take advantage of that.

Christ does not forgive any sin of people who do not come to Him for forgiveness. That sin is wiped out and we are made righteous as if we did not sin at the moment we ask Christ to forgive the sin and we repent of our sin. If fact, if you decide that you want forgiveness but make it clear to the Lord you have every intention to keep sinning in that same way, then that sin is not forgiven.

The Lord's prayer leads us in this. "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us".

Its written behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. We seem to focus on "sins". So what is righteousness? How does one get this righteousness? This as I see it is the key. Its this righteousness that gives us the right to come boldly before Him. Its this righteousness that gives us the right to set in heavenly places.

I think and wonder, we don't talk about that because we don't understand them. How do you come boldly before Him? Or how do you sit in heavenly places "and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," This does in fact get passed over and not talked about. Its hard for some to go from the natural to the supernatural. What they see is all there is.. hmm

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

I don't know of any "sin" I can do that He did not already die for. What "sin" is He holding to your account? We know He can't die again. Knowing all this does not make it ok to sin. Yes we can still sin. That "sin" is still wrong.

So who is doing the sinning? Which you? If we can't tell the difference between the flesh vs spirit we have a problem. Whats the new man? More then some simple choice not to sin. That new man which after God is "created" in righteousness (that word again) and true holiness. We do know and understand our flesh has not been born again not made new right? This flesh.. will never ever enter heaven.

I am in right standing ..right now with my Father simple because I believe in His son. Its not what I did or do or will do. Its what Christ already did. God is faithful not to me but to what Christ already did. So my sin/sins are forgiven..gone. Yet I have no right to sin.. should not walk in sin and yet it still hurts Him. And knowing all this.. I have NEVER EVER wanted to freely sin. Sin.. the cost the wages of sin in this world equals death. My new spirit new man does not sin.. this flesh does. Its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me.

Are you this flesh? If you don't understand flesh vs spirit.. anyway.. this is what I believe. Its when I only saw how much sin I do and how my heart always convicts me.. and reading how I will never get anything from God because of this I wanted to quit. He only told me what is written. He asked me what is righteousness and how do you get righteousness. My not sinning will never make me righteous before Him. The only way I get to Him is by what Christ already did. I will not take any glory from that. Its never me.. its always Him. If Christ never died.. I could never come before Him.. He said I am the WAY .. that WAY is SO MUCH more then just a path to God. Hes the truth.. the life. Sorry getting lost .. love this.. praise GOD glory to Jesus ..

Amen. With Christ there is no problem. We give our sins to Him, they are wiped out and we are sinless. It becomes our goal in life, we will to express this sinlessness. The darkness and sadness is gone. When we fail, we dust ourselves off, give our failure to Christ and start again as sinless, perfect righteous people.

 

[throughfaith]

Hello again @throughfaith, perhaps some of this is worth discussing at this point in your thread, since you and others have broached the subject of the Law of God in the life of believers. Actually, this takes a look at several purposes for the Law, in the life of both believers and unbelievers. What do you think (trying your best to set aside for the moment the fact that it was written by a Calvinist ).

I realize, knowing what you have told us you believe in the past here, that you are not going to agree with all of Dr. Sproul's commentary following the law's third purpose. Still, I do believe that you will agree with him about some of it, yes

​

THE THREEFOLD USE OF THE LAW​

​

Every Christian wrestles with the question, how does the Old Testament law relate to my life? Is the Old Testament law irrelevant to Christians or is there some sense in which we are still bound by portions of it? As the heresy of antinomianism becomes ever more pervasive in our culture, the need to answer these questions grows increasingly urgent.​

​

The Reformation was founded on grace and not upon law. Yet the law of God was not repudiated by the Reformers. John Calvin, for example, wrote what has become known as the “Threefold Use of the Law” in order to show the importance of the law for the Christian life.​

​

The first purpose of the law is to be a mirror. On the one hand, the law of God reflects and mirrors the perfect righteousness of God. The law tells us much about who God is. Perhaps more important, the law illumines human sinfulness. Augustine wrote, “The law orders, that we, after attempting to do what is ordered, and so feeling our weakness under the law, may learn to implore the help of grace.”2 The law highlights our weakness so that we might seek the strength found in Christ. Here the law acts as a severe schoolmaster who drives us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25).​

​

A second purpose for the law is the restraint of evil. The law, in and of itself, cannot change human hearts. It can, however, serve to protect the righteous from the unjust. Calvin says this purpose is “by means of its fearful denunciations and the consequent dread of punishment, to curb those who, unless forced, have no regard for rectitude and justice.”3 The law allows for a limited measure of justice on this earth, until the last judgment is realized.​

​

The third purpose of the law is to reveal what is pleasing to God. As born-again children of God, the law enlightens us as to what is pleasing to our Father, whom we seek to serve. The Christian delights in the law as God Himself delights in it. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). This is the highest function of the law, to serve as an instrument for the people of God to give Him honor and glory.​

​

By studying or meditating on the law of God, we attend the school of righteousness. We learn what pleases God and what offends Him. The moral law that God reveals in Scripture is always binding upon us. Our redemption is from the curse of God’s law, not from our duty to obey it. We are justified, not because of our obedience to the law, but in order that we may become obedient to God’s law. To love Christ is to keep His commandments. To love God is to obey His law.​

​

Summary​

1. The church today has been invaded by antinomianism, which weakens, rejects, or distorts the law of God.​

2. The law of God is a mirror of God’s holiness and our unrighteousness. It serves to reveal to us our need of a savior.​

3. The law of God is a restraint against sin.​

4. The law of God reveals what is pleasing and what is offensive to God.​

5. The Christian is to love the law of God and to obey the moral law of God.​

​

Biblical passages for reflection:​

Psalm 19:7-11​

Psalm 119:9-16​

Romans 7:7-25​

Romans 8:3-4​

1 Corinthians 7:19​

Galatians 3:24​

​

~Excerpt from Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith by R. C. Sproul © (Tyndale 1992)​

~Deut

I believe its Grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness.
11¶For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 

[Deuteronomy]

Each person will be different in terms of their heart.

Hello brother, that may be true, but my question still remains, "WHY is it true?" .. if the consequences of the two choices we are given are understood and carefully weighed/considered by all, that is As I said a post or two back,

If the very same free will choice is given to all w/o exception (lets say the choice is between a milk shake and a glass of cyanide-laden Kool-Aid, or between eternal joy and happiness in Heaven and eternal darkness, pain, suffering and torment in the Lake of Fire), why oh why would ANY reasonable, rational, fully-informed person EVER make the latter of those two choices (again, assuming that he/she is cognizant of what they are in for when they make that latter choice) ​

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I think that this is particularly disturbing when we consider that it is the MAJORITY (of reasonable, rational, intelligent, fully-informed people) among us who freely choose the Kool-Aid/the Lake of Fire

Matthew 7​

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.​

14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

​

 

[Nehemiah6]

Which verses support your answers please ?

One would have to quote large segments of the NT to provide those verses. That's why I said it's your next homework assignment.

 

[Guojing]

The PENALTY for ALL sins was paid at the cross in full. But the efficacy of that atonement applies only to those who obey the Gospel.
No. He fulfilled the Law and established the New Covenant..

Yes.
Yes
That is your next homework assignment.

The new covenant will be established with Israel the nation.

Since Israel is currently fallen in The eyes of God, it is still a future event

 

[JaumeJ]

Hello brother, if what you say is true (and we are talking about reasonable/rational/intelligent/fully-informed people here), why do you believe that most among us refuse to accept His gracious, free gift (having, of course, considered the consequences of not taking it)

IOW, if the same free will choice is given to all w/o exception (lets say the choice is between a milk shake and a glass of cyanide-laden Kool-Aid, or between eternal joy and happiness in Heaven and eternal darkness, pain and torment in the Lake of Fire), why do you think that a reasonable, rational person would EVER choose the latter (again, assuming that he/she was cognizant of what they were in for by making the latter choice)

Thanks!

~Deut

My reference is to all mankind, unhappily some will choose evil over good, darkness over the Light of Jesus-Yeshua. I am a bit taken aback that anyone would take my post as you have.

 

[throughfaith]

Hello brother, that may be true, but my question still remains, "WHY is it true?" .. if the consequences of the two choices we are given are understood and carefully weighed/considered by all, that is As I said a post or two back,

If the very same free will choice is given to all w/o exception (lets say the choice is between a milk shake and a glass of cyanide-laden Kool-Aid, or between eternal joy and happiness in Heaven and eternal darkness, pain, suffering and torment in the Lake of Fire), why oh why would ANY reasonable, rational, fully-informed person EVER make the latter of those two choices (again, assuming that he/she is cognizant of what they are in for when they make that latter choice) ​

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I think that this is particularly disturbing when we consider that it is the MAJORITY (of reasonable, rational, intelligent, fully-informed people) among us who freely choose the Kool-Aid/the Lake of Fire

Matthew 7​

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.​

14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

​

Do you mean as taught by Arminians ? The idea of Previeniant grace , where everone is given a type of ' quickening ' ,temporarily raised to life to make a free will choice to believe or not ?

 

[throughfaith]

One would have to quote large segments of the NT to provide those verses. That's why I said it's your next homework assignment.

That's a fair comment lol

 

[Nehemiah6]

The new covenant will be established with Israel the nation.

How come you are still clueless after having all this discussed in detail many times?

The New Covenant went into effect on the 14th of Nisan, 30 AD, and has been in effect continuously since then. Of course, in the future, redeemed and restored Israel on earth will also be under the New Covenant.

 

[throughfaith]

Hello brother, that may be true, but my question still remains, "WHY is it true?" .. if the consequences of the two choices we are given are understood and carefully weighed/considered by all, that is As I said a post or two back,

If the very same free will choice is given to all w/o exception (lets say the choice is between a milk shake and a glass of cyanide-laden Kool-Aid, or between eternal joy and happiness in Heaven and eternal darkness, pain, suffering and torment in the Lake of Fire), why oh why would ANY reasonable, rational, fully-informed person EVER make the latter of those two choices (again, assuming that he/she is cognizant of what they are in for when they make that latter choice) ​

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I think that this is particularly disturbing when we consider that it is the MAJORITY (of reasonable, rational, intelligent, fully-informed people) among us who freely choose the Kool-Aid/the Lake of Fire

Matthew 7​

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.​

14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

​

I think we recognise this problem ,even within believers. How strong the mind is towards being deceived and having the wrong motivations, the wrong object to place our faith in . The heart and its lusts are easily followed to the extent to call evil good and good evil . Without the right object to place our faith in we are lost .