Homosexual ... and Christian???

[princessbella]

i totally agree , in fact the church is full of sin, pride, gossip slander, adultary, sexualsin unforgivness,, anger, bitterness greep , love of money while condemning those in the world, we cannnott judge or think our life is any better than theirs because they are homosexual and saying they are an abomination and are going to go to hell..where is our love grace and mercy instead we shut the dooir in their faces instead of leting the holy spirit deal with them, how are we so perfect , and God forbid that you would ever struggle with hoosexuality or even any other sexual sin or addiction but if you did would you prefer to hear about gods love, healing, grace, mercy, instead of his wrath and that your gonna go to hell..

.He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it. 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

thanks for listening

princess

can an alchoholic be a christian? they repent and try not to drink but at times they still drink. can a drug addict be a christian? they repent and try not to do drugs but at times they still do drugs. can a gambler be a christian? they repent and try not to gamble but at times they still gamble. can a homosexual be a christian? they repent and try not to commit homosexual acts, but at times they still do.

the fact is, when we only had one rule, dont eat from this tree, we messed that up. odds are there isnt a christian reading this today didnt commit a sin in some way. people always seem to take extreme stances, depending on the issue and how they interpit it. an example of this would be homosexuality, most christians will say you cannot be homosexual and be saved. scripture seems pretty clear on this. yet these same christians will say thou shall not kill, and have no qualms about war,capitol punishment or even assassination, for the "right" reasons. the recent osama bin laden thing is a perfect example of this double standard. how many christians are gun advocates and demand their right to take anothers life in defense of their own life. they want to hold strict doctrine over everyone, yet at the same time they have no qualms about ignoring other clearly strict doctrine. everyone reading this knows it to be true, thou shall not kill. pretty simple right? do not kill, period,no exceptions, no justifications,no excuses. will you now look for scripture elsewhere in the bible to justify it? i didnt know one of the big 10 could be ignored by quoting other scripture. i often question how someone can claim to be a christian and serve in any position where they will take part in the killing of another human being. now replace all above words that refer to killing or murder and replace them with the word stealing or adultery or lying. does this change any of the arguments? if so, why?

ALL repent of our sins when we come to Jesus;but we dont continue in our sins, for the most part we want this to be true, but we are still sinners. sometimes after you repent your sins you stop those sins completely, unfortunatly, we find other sins that we then commit. we struggle with our sins and we do the best we can to not sin, the other sins we do commit by accident or misjustification are sins we need forgiveness for.

repent your sins, ask Jesus the Son of God for help,take communion and be baptized. these are the base things we need to do in order to be saved. has anyone done this and still at one time or another commited a sin? of course it why we need forgiveness everyday in our struggle with our sins.
you can say but they are continuing to live in sin, to which i say, who isnt living in sin. is it possible to live in this world without sinning? i only know of one person to have done it. if Jesus cannot forgive people who are continuing to live in sin, then every single one of us is damned. let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Duewell
faith is personal, but it is never private

 

[dan1el]

This is my main gripe with Christianity. I understand that God allegedly condemned homosexuality, but that doesn't give anyone the right to ostracize the gay community, harm them, or prevent them from obtaining the same rights. We have laws to prevent religious influence for a reason.

It's fine if homosexuality is a sin in your eyes, that's your contention. But that does not give anyone the right to treat the gay community like dirt.

People here go on and on about how they're all going to end up in hell. Guess what? They're already there.

They can't come out of the closet because they're worried about friends and family who were always there for them turning on them, simply because of who they love. It doesn't matter that their personalities are still the same and nothing has changed, they're still often alienated and disowned.

They can't even turn to religion at this point because they have people there telling them they're evil as well. It's ridiculous--especially since God also teaches about love and forgiveness. But that often seems to be overlooked. The hypocrisy is just amazing all around, considering almost everyone in church is a sinner in one way or another. It would be hard not to be one with the bible's view of morality.

Now, what really annoys me is people who try rationalizing their disdain for the gay community by quoting the bible.

I know what the bible has to say on homosexuality, but how do you feel? What were your beliefs on homosexuality before you found God? Did you have an opinion?

That's been my issue since joining this board, everyone has a lot to say about how God supposedly feels or felt, but very few of the people here are actually willing to let me know how they feel.

I understand being holy, but that doesn't mean you should blindly follow every word in the bible, when you disagree with what is said. I'm not all that holy these days, but if I were I probably wouldn't take everything that was said at face value. Even if God did feel that way at one point, times change. Society progresses and we move closer towards Egalitarianism.

Is that really a bad thing? I would've thought that we would've learned centuries ago that intolerance and persecution was wrong. But it seems like we just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, just with new faces. It's sad.

Books are never going to change, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't.

If you read the posts I made earlier, you would see that I do not hold to that opinion -- that homosexuals should be hated or treated like dirt -- who did Jesus ever treat like dirt? He was the Perfect One, and treated no one like dirt: who am I to treat anyone like dirt? Do I perfectly walk by that rule? I wish! But I would never in a million years hate someone just because they are homosexual, as you would see if you read the previous posts.

 

[dan1el]

i totally agree , in fact the church is full of sin, pride, gossip slander, adultary, sexualsin unforgivness,, anger, bitterness greep , love of money while condemning those in the world, we cannnott judge or think our life is any better than theirs because they are homosexual and saying they are an abomination and are going to go to hell..where is our love grace and mercy instead we shut the dooir in their faces instead of leting the holy spirit deal with them, how are we so perfect , and God forbid that you would ever struggle with hoosexuality or even any other sexual sin or addiction but if you did would you prefer to hear about gods love, healing, grace, mercy, instead of his wrath and that your gonna go to hell..

.He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it. 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

thanks for listening

princess

The point was that some "Christians" were trying to erase the sinfulness of homosexuality. This is not about hating or loving homosexuals; this is simply about whether homosexuality is a sin at all. If you don't even think it is a sin, you will never repent; and that is the danger. That is what I am getting after: the lies that so-called Christians teach. Hitler, himself, was a self-proclaimed "Christian", and used Martin Luther's writings to justify his hatred for the Jews (Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer): he really did claim to be Christian just like the people today who claim to be Christian, but who do not hold to the teachings of Christianity. The danger is that they will muddle the Truth, and spread their damnation to others, rather than salvation by grace through faith in Christ, and turning away from sin.

 

[Nickkkk]

If you read the posts I made earlier, you would see that I do not hold to that opinion -- that homosexuals should be hated or treated like dirt -- who did Jesus ever treat like dirt? He was the Perfect One, and treated no one like dirt: who am I to treat anyone like dirt? Do I perfectly walk by that rule? I wish! But I would never in a million years hate someone just because they are homosexual, as you would see if you read the previous posts.

I didn't say you did. I don't think all Christians HATE the gay community, it just seems that a lot of them do. I have tons of Christians in my family, most of whom are pretty tolerant.

But there are a lot of Christians out there who do treat the gay community like dirt. Whether or not they do it because they have their own deep-seated hatred for gay people or simply because the bible condemns homosexuality is irrelevant. It happens and it happens far too often.

I'd also like to touch on some of the arguments you made earlier, if you don't mind?

How are people being forced to "take part in a homosexuals lifestyle" ? That doesn't actually make any sense. Doing such things? What things? All the gay community is asking for is equal rights and respect, obliging them has nothing to do with taking part of the homosexual lifestyle, it's called being a decent person.

Also, your comments on sexual education left me a bit baffled as well: Do you feel that teenagers should live in ignorance? There's a variety of problems with the notion that sexual education should only be for adults. For one, regardless of how hard you try enforcing your beliefs (or God's beliefs) of morality on others, teenagers are still going to have sex. And when they finally do decide to have sex, they should be aware of the dangers of doing so, and be protected. That's what sexual education does for our youth. Without it, teen pregnancy would be even higher, and there would be even more abortions (something most of you seem to strongly oppose) So, how is sex education a bad thing?

Is it because it informs people that homosexuality does in fact exist? Well, it does, so why shouldn't they teach it? You might not particularly like them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that they shouldn't be included in sexual education.

And parents generally aren't fit to act as sexual education teachers. There's too much bias and probably lack of knowledge on their end.

As for Africa and homosexuality: I'm pretty sure it's East Africa where they're really pushing to put gay people to death (though I may be wrong) anyway, did you know that the controversy surrounding homosexuality was further sparked in Africa after US Christians entered the country and "warned" the nation of the dangers of being liberal regarding homosexuality? What I mean by that is: they compiled a video with the most disturbing and ridiculous pornography imaginable and then tried to paint it as behavior that was associated with the majority of gay Americans.

It's kind of sad that we have such a negative influence on other countries.

 

[dan1el]

I didn't say you did. I don't think all Christians HATE the gay community, it just seems that a lot of them do. I have tons of Christians in my family, most of whom are pretty tolerant.

But there are a lot of Christians out there who do treat the gay community like dirt. Whether or not they do it because they have their own deep-seated hatred for gay people or simply because the bible condemns homosexuality is irrelevant. It happens and it happens far too often.

Well, you and I share that frustration with Christianity-at-large -- because those things are not Christian at all; it is sad to see so many who are being misled.

I'd also like to touch on some of the arguments you made earlier, if you don't mind?

How are people being forced to "take part in a homosexuals lifestyle" ? That doesn't actually make any sense. Doing such things? What things? All the gay community is asking for is equal rights and respect, obliging them has nothing to do with taking part of the homosexual lifestyle, it's called being a decent person.

If a person who is Christian provides a room for a homosexual couple to sleep in for their honeymoon, they are taking part in the homosexuals' acts.
The gay community is not asking for equal rights; it is already a crime to say "homosexuality is a sin" (this is Scriptural) in some parts of Europe, and in Canada. Understand? That is not equal rights; that is snuffing someone out. That is infringing on my right to freedom of religion.

Also, your comments on sexual education left me a bit baffled as well: Do you feel that teenagers should live in ignorance? There's a variety of problems with the notion that sexual education should only be for adults. For one, regardless of how hard you try enforcing your beliefs (or God's beliefs) of morality on others, teenagers are still going to have sex. And when they finally do decide to have sex, they should be aware of the dangers of doing so, and be protected. That's what sexual education does for our youth. Without it, teen pregnancy would be even higher, and there would be even more abortions (something most of you seem to strongly oppose) So, how is sex education a bad thing?

1. Government-designed sexual education (as they see fit; not as the parents see fit): the school can punish children academically if the parents hold religious views (Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, etc.,) that teach that homosexuality is a sin -- and who, therefore, wish to remove their children during that particular time of the school year (when homosexuality is being taught as something other than a sin -- as something which is "okay" and "acceptable"; for which there is no judgment to come).

2. For children in elementary school -- these are not even teenagers; but children.

These things are not proper, was my problem.

And parents generally aren't fit to act as sexual education teachers. There's too much bias and probably lack of knowledge on their end.

Who says parents are not fit? Who better than a loving parent to teach their children about this intimate topic? How can they not know enough? They knew enough to make a child; that is enough.

As for Africa and homosexuality: I'm pretty sure it's East Africa where they're really pushing to put gay people to death (though I may be wrong) anyway, did you know that the controversy surrounding homosexuality was further sparked in Africa after US Christians entered the country and "warned" the nation of the dangers of being liberal regarding homosexuality? What I mean by that is: they compiled a video with the most disturbing and ridiculous pornography imaginable and then tried to paint it as behavior that was associated with the majority of gay Americans.

It's kind of sad that we have such a negative influence on other countries.

The majority of U.S. Christians are not Christian at all; but, if anyone from the U.S. told them not to be liberal towards homosexuality, that doesn't mean in the slightest "make a death penalty for homosexuality".

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

Christians are not bar owners.

Well first of all, some are, but second of all, that's not what I was talking about. Doesn't have to be something relevant to the alcoholism, the same way the hotel wasn't relevant to homosexuality. Point is, just by serving a customer who is of a certain lifestyle, you're not becoming a part of that lifestyle. Same way you wouldn't be part of the alcoholic lifestyle if you were to rent a room to one.

Actually, I have been cussed out, and threatened with violence while evangelizing. Also, having grown up in Texas (spanish "ghettos" of Texas) and Miami, I know VERY well what it is to be discriminated and ostracized for being poor (by whites), for being white (by blacks and hispanics). I was actually beat up many times for nothing. A group of people would come up to me and start fights for no reason at all.

With the part about evangelizing, I suppose it is possible, while unlikely. The second part doesn't have anything to do with your Christianity.

Actually, this is where Christianity and non-Christianity disagree: Christians do not believe that it "natural"; God would not create someone with a trait that He condemns. It is a personal choice that people make. This is especially important to know when dealing with so-called "Christians" who want to contort Scripture to fit their lifestyles rather than repent.

You have what your god says in the Bible, however science and evidence supports that it is not a choice. And you yourself quoted the constitution of how the US cannot make a law respecting an establishment of religion. So you can't expect the US government to make laws that would treat homosexuals as anything less than heterosexuals, the only reason you have is religious, and the US government can't make laws on religion.

The U.S. is not Christian by majority -- maybe nominally Christian; but not truly by far...

As far as Presidents go, I don't believe anyone could actually become president and truly be Christian, if you know about how Presidents are chosen...

Hitler claimed to be "Christian", too; but since he didn't follow the True Word, he was not truly Christian at all. The majority of Christians will not enter Heaven...

Christians don't spew hatred. If a person who says they are Christian spews hatred, they are not practicing Christianity...

This is a fallacy. All the peaceful Muslims could say that the extremist Muslims aren't actually Muslims, couldn't they? What makes what you're doing any different?

There has been NO single group of people more maligned and persecuted than Christians.

This is where I have to end this little exchange, because we're going nowhere if you're going to make claims like that, which are just utterly wrong.

 

[Nickkkk]

>Well, you and I share that frustration with Christianity-at-large -- because those things are not Christian at all; it is sad to see so many who are being misled.

But they are Christians.

You may not advocate murder but those people do, and they're still Christians.

>If a person who is Christian provides a room for a homosexual couple to sleep in for their honeymoon, they are taking part in the homosexuals' acts.

How does that make any sense at all? What those two do in the privacy of their own hotel room has no bearing on you whatsoever. You aren't affected by anyone else having sex, there's a difference.

> The gay community is not asking for equal rights

That's exactly what they're asking for. They're asking to be treated as equals and to have the same fundamental rights as others. That includes marriage, as marriage offers a variety of rights that civil unions and domestic partnerships don't. There are over a thousand marital rights, it's only fair that gay people have them as well. What you and I have: that's what gay people want, so how is it that they aren't asking for equal rights?

>it is already a crime to say "homosexuality is a sin" (this is Scriptural) in some parts of Europe, and in Canada. Understand? That is not equal rights; that is snuffing someone out. That is infringing on my right to freedom of religion.

Politicians who're fed up with the treatment of the gay community are the ones who've implemented those laws. Actually, I'm unsure of whether or not it's just censorship issues as a whole in those countries. I know England is a bit ridiculous when it comes to hate speech as a whole. Your right to freedom of religion has been bordering on hate for centuries in my eyes, but even so, I'm against censorship. I may not like what some people have to say, but I'm all for allowing them to say it.

Plus, I love debates.

1. Government-designed sexual education (as they see fit; not as the parents see fit): the school can punish children academically if the parents hold religious views (Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, etc.,) that teach that homosexuality is a sin -- and who, therefore, wish to remove their children during that particular time of the school year (when homosexuality is being taught as something other than a sin -- as something which is "okay" and "acceptable"; for which there is no judgment to come).

Which means that parents can then tell their children to disregard certain topics that were discussed. Children are far more likely to listen to their parents anyway, so if the parents feel that strongly, they can do that. I've had sexual education classes, they never once talked to us about what was the norm and what wasn't. That wasn't apart of their agenda. So it comes down to censoring homosexuality and pretending it doesn't exist. It's unfair and extremely ignorant not to want your child to learn about homosexuality - simply because you feel it's wrong. Shouldn't people be well-versed in subjects they don't agree with - that way they can at least defend their positions? And just for general knowledge purposes? If I was so avidly against a certain issue, I'd like to have a better understanding of the topic, that way I'd know if my feelings were truly warranted.


> children in elementary school -- these are not even teenagers; but children.

I don't want children to learn about sexual education; but I am for teens learning about it. I think it would be irresponsible on our part not to start educating the youth at around 13 ish.

>Who says parents are not fit? Who better than a loving parent to teach their children about this intimate topic? How can they not know enough? They knew enough to make a child; that is enough.

How is that enough? That's irrational. My cousin may have popped out two children, but that doesn't mean she's fit to educate her child or to even define our sex organs. Being a parent doesn't make you well-versed in the subject of sexuality.


>The majority of U.S. Christians are not Christian at all; but, if anyone from the U.S. told them not to be liberal towards homosexuality, that doesn't mean in the slightest "make a death penalty for homosexuality".

Yeah, but they are Christians. That's what you don't seem to be getting. They might not fit into the standard (or your ideal) definition of a Christian follower, but they're Christians nonetheless.

Really? What did they think would happen when they tried further stigmatizing homosexuality in areas that already carry out 7 + year jail sentences for being gay?

 

[princessbella]

i guess at the end of the day jesus died on the cross for us just as we are, God showed his love for us that while we were still sinners he sent jesus to died on the cross regardless of who you are, whatever sin youve commited whether your homosexul or strait. His grace and mercy and forgivness is there all the time... Im not here to argue whether or not Homosexuality is a sin, but im here to say God loves everone and died on the cross regardless of sexuality..For God so loved the world that he gave his only begiotten son so that whoever beleives in him shall have etermal life...
Who are any of us to say that homosexuality disrediets you from being a christian any more than any other sin bif or small..

i dont have all the answers but i am pretty sure theres many people who hate God because of what chrisitians have said to them, that stuggle with guilt and suisidal thoughts because they cant reconcile their homosexual feelings with what the church says, turn away from God altogether..

im just saying theres sin everywhere in the world, and jesus was the first person , who let mary magdelene a prostitute wash his feet, accepted her instead of reviling her because he saw her need and her heart...

thanks for listening princess

 

[dan1el]

Well first of all, some are, but second of all, that's not what I was talking about. Doesn't have to be something relevant to the alcoholism, the same way the hotel wasn't relevant to homosexuality. Point is, just by serving a customer who is of a certain lifestyle, you're not becoming a part of that lifestyle. Same way you wouldn't be part of the alcoholic lifestyle if you were to rent a room to one.

If the owners are Christian, and don't feel comfortable with homosexuals committing acts of homosexuality in their Christian establishment, they have the religious right to disallow it.

With the part about evangelizing, I suppose it is possible, while unlikely. The second part doesn't have anything to do with your Christianity.

1. Are you disparaging me? Calling me a liar? Thanks, a lot.
2. You said that I had no idea what it was like to experience being ostracized, etc., like the gays were. You and others don't mind comparing the plight of the gays with the plight of the African-Americans; so why would you refuse to accept my explanation of knowing what it means to feel ostracized based on my skin color?

You have what your god says in the Bible, however science and evidence supports that it is not a choice. And you yourself quoted the constitution of how the US cannot make a law respecting an establishment of religion. So you can't expect the US government to make laws that would treat homosexuals as anything less than heterosexuals, the only reason you have is religious, and the US government can't make laws on religion.

1. Science changes on a daily basis. Opinion slosh back and forth; interestingly enough, the Jewish dietary Law is scientifically sound (i.e.: "don't eat scavengers" -- scientifically-speaking, there is a much higher likelihood of contracting many diseases and parasites this way.) Science also tells us that homosexuals are much more likely to get diseases (the "due penalty for their error" Romans 1:27) because of their methods of sexual intercourse. This is so true that (according to the testimony of a former porn star, Danielle Williams, found here) in the porn industry, gay porn actors get paid more than any other actors because of the risk involved. I assure you that the doctors in the porn industry go by science.

For this and other reasons, I don't think science and what God says in Scripture really conflict (once science has arrived to a point where they have learned enough to truly understand a certain subject).

This is a fallacy. All the peaceful Muslims could say that the extremist Muslims aren't actually Muslims, couldn't they? What makes what you're doing any different?

This is true; and they aren't -- they abrogate many verses (add and subtract from the Qur'anic Scriptures). If someone says they are Christian and they do something like Hitler did, don't I have the right to say they are not Christian? Jesus said that MANY will say to Him in the Day of Judgment that they were "Christians"; and He will say to them, "Get away from Me; I never knew you, you workers of iniquity."

This is where I have to end this little exchange, because we're going nowhere if you're going to make claims like that, which are just utterly wrong.

Really? I challenge you to name a single group that has been more persecuted than Christians in terms of being put to death for their faith.

 

[dan1el]

You have what your god says in the Bible, however science and evidence supports that it is not a choice. And you yourself quoted the constitution of how the US cannot make a law respecting an establishment of religion. So you can't expect the US government to make laws that would treat homosexuals as anything less than heterosexuals, the only reason you have is religious, and the US government can't make laws on religion.

But about the third point, which I did not completely answer, the POINT is:
by forcing someone to go against their conscience, which is based on their belief/religion, you are infringing on their freedom of religion

 

[Nickkkk]

Really? I challenge you to name a single group that has been more persecuted than Christians in terms of being put to death for their faith.

Erm...

er...

Uh...

Seriously?

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

As everything else in your post relies on a straw-man of what I've said, or is so wrong I'm not willing to fight about it... I'll just respond to how you think Christians are the most persecuted group ever...

From a study by the University of Minnesota, these questions were polled

This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...

Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....

Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%

Well that's strange, wouldn't you think that Christians would top these lists, assuming what you say is true?

Jewish people, homosexuals, various racial minorities, and non-religious people all see/have seen more persecution than Christians have.

Anyways, you constantly twist the meaning of my words to take a meaning out of it that was not there, and make patently false claims, I'm not responding to those things anymore.

 

[dan1el]

Erm...

er...

Uh...

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

In the 20th century alone, 45.5 million were murdered simply for being Christian. Please tell me another group that is more persecuted.

 

[dan1el]

As everything else in your post relies on a straw-man of what I've said, or is so wrong I'm not willing to fight about it... I'll just respond to how you think Christians are the most persecuted group ever...



Well that's strange, wouldn't you think that Christians would top these lists, assuming what you say is true?

Jewish people, homosexuals, various racial minorities, and non-religious people all see/have seen more persecution than Christians have.

Anyways, you constantly twist the meaning of my words to take a meaning out of it that was not there, and make patently false claims, I'm not responding to those things anymore.

I hope you read the post I just posted to answer Nickkk

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

I hope you read the post I just posted to answer Nickkk

In which you set up a logically broken scenario which would not at all prove your point. I'm done trying to rationalize with irrationality.

 

[dan1el]

But they are Christians.
You may not advocate murder but those people do, and they're still Christians.

So, what you're telling me is that (in your opinion) I can study the Buddhist Scriptures, practice Buddhism, believe everything Buddhism teaches; but call myself, "Christian", and still truly be a Christian? Most Christians in the U.S., for that reason, I say, are not Christian at all: they do not practice what is taught in Christianity. They are "nominally" Christian; but not truly Christian.

How does that make any sense at all? What those two do in the privacy of their own hotel room has no bearing on you whatsoever. You aren't affected by anyone else having sex, there's a difference.

Because they would have been leasing the room to them -- the connection is clear.

That's exactly what they're asking for. They're asking to be treated as equals and to have the same fundamental rights as others. That includes marriage, as marriage offers a variety of rights that civil unions and domestic partnerships don't. There are over a thousand marital rights, it's only fair that gay people have them as well. What you and I have: that's what gay people want, so how is it that they aren't asking for equal rights?

Marriages are given benefits from the government because marriages benefit society. Heterosexual marriages bring children into the world. Marriages where both mother and father are present produce the most stable children (psychologically-speaking); but homosexual unions guarantee that either a father or a mother will not be present, which will produce an unstable child, according to psychology.

Politicians who're fed up with the treatment of the gay community are the ones who've implemented those laws. Actually, I'm unsure of whether or not it's just censorship issues as a whole in those countries. I know England is a bit ridiculous when it comes to hate speech as a whole. Your right to freedom of religion has been bordering on hate for centuries in my eyes, but even so, I'm against censorship. I may not like what some people have to say, but I'm all for allowing them to say it.

Plus, I love debates.

Just because people are being treated unfairly does not give the right to treat another group unfairly, and unconstitutionally.

Which means that parents can then tell their children to disregard certain topics that were discussed. Children are far more likely to listen to their parents anyway, so if the parents feel that strongly, they can do that. I've had sexual education classes, they never once talked to us about what was the norm and what wasn't. That wasn't apart of their agenda. So it comes down to censoring homosexuality and pretending it doesn't exist. It's unfair and extremely ignorant not to want your child to learn about homosexuality - simply because you feel it's wrong. Shouldn't people be well-versed in subjects they don't agree with - that way they can at least defend their positions? And just for general knowledge purposes? If I was so avidly against a certain issue, I'd like to have a better understanding of the topic, that way I'd know if my feelings were truly warranted.

It isn't about pretending it doesn't exist; it is about not indoctrinating children with their ideas -- at an age where it is simply not appropriate. A Christian has the right to reject this teaching based on their freedom of religion; but the school punishes their children for them practicing their freedom of religion by taking their children out of school during that time. That goes for Muslims, Christians and whoever else might want to take their children out of school.

Yeah, but they are Christians. That's what you don't seem to be getting. They might not fit into the standard (or your ideal) definition of a Christian follower, but they're Christians nonetheless.[/FONT]

The point is that this nation is, in its nature, non-Christian.

Really? What did they think would happen when they tried further stigmatizing homosexuality in areas that already carry out 7 + year jail sentences for being gay?

I wasn't there; so, I can't answer for them -- the point, I guess, was to make sure that they would be able to practice their Christianity without the kinds of censorships that are occurring in once-Christian nations, such as Switzerland, Canada, U.K., and what is now coming to America.

 

[dan1el]

In which you set up a logically broken scenario which would not at all prove your point. I'm done trying to rationalize with irrationality.

Logically broken scenario? 45.5 million Christians were martyred in the 20th century alone -- will you please tell me a people or group that is more persecuted? The answer is: there is none more persecuted than Christians. If something does not change, Christians will be jailed simply for saying what the Bible says -- that homosexuality is a sin (like it is already being done in other once-Christian nations). I would say that that is persecution. It definitely is coming, if something doesn't change.

 

[giantone]

Here is a simple bible question for you all: the scripture below has examples of what they did in the day of Noah, what is missing from the days of lot?

Luke 17:26 *And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 *They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 *Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 *But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.


and when Marriage is destroyed because no one needs to be faithful to anyone that is another sign the end is approaching.

 

[Ramon]

I agree with princess and duewell: This post makes tears me up.

How much of a fool I have been. Yes. A fool. I want this old heart gone!! DONE WITH! I don't want to make the new heart tainted by hypocrisy!! NO!!!

Which one of you, who say you are a Christian were saved by your righteousness? WHICH ONE!!? Were you saved because you were righteous? Or because Jesus had mercy on you? Didn't he also say, 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice?'' Were you saved because you did good things or because you had faith to be saved, so that all your deeds would be forgotten?

I think we are missing the separation here. You were saved by grace, not by your goodness, since you cannot even rid yourself of evil thoughts. And didn't Jesus say that a person who lusts in his heart is an adulterer? So now, are you not saved because you have no control over your thoughts? I PLEAD FOR MERCY OH LORD! MERCY! HAVE MERCY ON ME, A SINNER!!!! But remember these words of Jesus if you will not take it from me:

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[giantone]

I agree with princess and duewell: This post makes tears me up.

How much of a fool I have been. Yes. A fool. I want this old heart gone!! DONE WITH! I don't want to make the new heart tainted by hypocrisy!! NO!!!

Which one of you, who say you are a Christian were saved by your righteousness? WHICH ONE!!? Were you saved because you were righteous? Or because Jesus had mercy on you? Didn't he also say, 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice?'' Were you saved because you did good things or because you had faith to be saved, so that all your deeds would be forgotten?

I think we are missing the separation here. You were saved by grace, not by your goodness, since you cannot even rid yourself of evil thoughts. And didn't Jesus say that a person who lusts in his heart is an adulterer? So now, are you not saved because you have no control over your thoughts? I PLEAD FOR MERCY OH LORD! MERCY! HAVE MERCY ON ME, A SINNER!!!! But remember these words of Jesus if you will not take it from me:

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

May Jesus bless you.

I like the scripture, I love the scripture you gave because it is Jesus's preaching

I cheated and looked up another of Jesus's words the word repent

Matthew 3:2 *And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:17 *From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15 *And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 6:12 *And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3 *I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 *I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 16:30 *And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 17:3 *Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 *And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Acts 2:38 *Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 3:19 *Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 8:22 *Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 17:30 *And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 26:20 *But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

No one is good, not even one, only God is good and unless we ALL turn from our sins and repent we will all go to Hell. Leaven has entered the church what kind of leaven doesn't mater leaven is leaven.



1 Corinthians 5:8 *Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.