eschaton made easy

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VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
When Jesus walked the earth as a man, He walked in the land that He had given to the children of Israel. And He considered them His people. He chose to be born of this very people. And they are not different from us......except for this; they were the people who received the promises, who had the covenants, who were blessed (or cursed) with the judges and the prophets. And the received the Law. All of these things were God's choice. And because of this choice, they were and still are separate as a people from the rest of the world. In addition, the Gentiles were excluded from these promises by birth, because God did not choose them, until Jesus came and died. For with His death the division of choice was removed, in the removing of the Law.

Israel did not act righteously towards Jesus. They did not believe in Him, did not hear His voice. They were looking for a Messiah to restore to them the kingdom, something like the kingdom under Solomon. They could not accept a King who had come in a way and for a purpose that was unexpected, that did not meettheir understanding of scripture. And so they rejected Him out of hand, and even as He was hanging on the cross and all the signs of His death shook them greatly, they stood back and said, "this was not the Christ, was He?"

The Jews are still looking for their messiah, their conquering King. And one will come, who seems to fit every thought they have about who He should be. But this one will be false, the Antichrist. And many among them will be deceived, because he will offer them just what they have been waiting for so long. And there will be tremendous death and destruction for them, and by the end of their relationship with this man, they will have lost nearly everything. It will be a calamity unlike any this people has ever seen, and they have seen plenty.

We should learn a lesson from this, unless we too would suffer calamity. We are apt to make the same mistake that Israel did, unless we truly seek His face. Much that we believe is in the same vein as they believed when He first came. We have not looked beyond that which is obvious to our natural mind, to see the deeper things, even the deep things of God. One can be very learned in the scriptures, and very knowledgable about doctrine, and know very little of Jesus. And this has the danger of leading us to make the same error they did all those years ago. We should remember that as people we are no different from them, nor are we any smarter.

Jesus is coming back with a different aim, a different goal, a different purpose from His Father, this time. He is coming to set things right, to restore the acient tabernacle, to restore God's rule over the earth, and to destroy all the works of the devil. And to be the mediator between men and God, men of flesh who remain living in the earth. And most importantly, to take the throne that is rightfully His, as the descendant of David. From that throne, He will rule the world, and the nations of the world, with a rod of iron.

It would do is well to recognize arrogance in ourselves and repent before He returns.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
don't feel bad I didn't pay attention during that time either and that was just 3 years ago. here are some websites if you want to research it further (personally hate feeling dumb which is why I study a lot )

Operation Cast Lead

Operation Cast Lead ? Gaza, Hamas and Israel

Operation Cast Lead Table of Contents

Palestine Monitor - Operation Cast Lead II



I gave you sources from both sides of the disagreement. I pray God gives you discernment on the matter. posted with love (and reading the articles now as well).
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
What does claiming to know the month and year have anything to do with eschaton made easy?
nothing sorry I was distracted and baffled. never meet anyone online or in person who told me that.:p

but it is linked in that it speaks of end times.

Eschatology (pronounced /ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ ( listen); from the Greek ἔσχατος/ἐσχάτη/ἔσχατον, eschatos/eschatē/eschaton meaning "last" and -logy meaning "the study of", first used in English around 1550[1]) is a part of theology, philosophy, and futurology concerned with what are believed to be the final events in history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity, commonly referred to as the end of the world or the World to Come. The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "concerned with ‘the four last things: death, judgment, heaven, and hell’".[2]


Eschatology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest


Malachi 3
The People Complain Harshly

13 “ Your words have been harsh against Me,”
Says the LORD,

“ Yet you say,

‘ What have we spoken against You?’
14 You have said,

‘ It is useless to serve God;
What profit is it that we have kept His ordinance,
And that we have walked as mourners
Before the LORD of hosts?
15 So now we call the proud blessed,
For those who do wickedness are raised up;
They even tempt God and go free.’”


“ On the day that I make them My jewels.[a]
And I will spare them
As a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 Then you shall again discern
Between the righteous and the wicked,
Between one who serves God
And one who does not serve Him
.


discernment is a gift from God. just a reminder so that no man may boast but all Glory be given to the Lord.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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What is wrong with you? Jesus loves us, that is clear. But does He love all that we do? Or all that we think? Or even all that we say?

If Jesus judges His bride, that is up to Him. If you do not believe what I say is from Him, then just ignore it, that is your prerogative. But if you believe that He is happy with us, and how we worship Him and even represent Him to the world, you have another think coming.

Besides, what does this have to do with the thread in question?
This is why we need to be transformed by the renewing of our mind by hearing the word and doctrine daily. God came to Adam and his wife Eve in the cool of every day to teach them doctrine, He did not just give them a prohibition and leave them alone. He came to them every day to teach them, instruct them and impart His life to them. We need to be taught in the same manner by those that God has raised up for the church. You refuse to recognize the will of God concerning the dispensing of the word and doctrine and that relates to and includes 'eschaton'. We are sheep and need to be feed and nourished up in the words of faith and good doctrine (1Tim 4:6) not as a loner but as part of the sheep fold that gathers itself together.

Eph 5:24-33 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

We will never understand the church as the bride of Christ without understanding the revelation that was given to Paul in this passage. It is loaded, but we just seem to skim right over it and never understand what is being communicated other than generalities.

The church is subject to Christ, who loves the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify it to Himself a glorious church... This sanctification process of cleansing and washing is by the word (Jn 17:17-19) and not by judging it. He has already judged it when He laid His life down and gave Himself for it (v.25). Jesus did not judge His disciples but He washed their feet and left them an example to wash one another's feet (Jn 13:5-14).

No judging but just washing when needed, they may not understand, but do it anyways and later they will. This is what mercy and grace is about, it's being washed and cleansed by the word and in the truth and nature of Christ. Mercy has taken care of what we deserved and grace has given us what we don't deserve. We are members of His body, flesh and bones and we are one flesh and He loves us the same way He loves Himself with a perfect love and without thinking evil, because love thinks no evil (1Cor 13:5,6), He is joined unto us and we are joined unto Him (v.31, 1Cor 6:17).

Christ is nourishing and cherishing every member of the church, His bride, to present it to Himself not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. There is not one member of His body that will not be presented in this way because we are members of His own body, flesh and bones. He loves us as He loves Himself and when He looks upon us He is looking upon Himself as one flesh in the Spirit and when we see Him we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as he is and we shall be joined unto Him as His bride (1Jn 3;2,3). There is no judging of the bride in this relationship and presentation to Himself only nourishing and cherishing and sanctifying and cleansing through the washing of water by the word.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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Jesus is coming back with a different aim, a different goal, a different purpose from His Father
Hi VW,

Have read again of what you said, Im not sure it is what you meant. But scripture is plain Christ does the will of the Father, he and the Father are one. They are not against each other nor are they at emnity about how to do things right..
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Saying that I am affiliated with that stuff you say I am affiliated with is a lie. I am not affiliated with anything

i'm very busy this morning, but this afternoon will retreive your posts explaining the intricacies of the NAR.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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Hi VW,

Have read again of what you said, Im not sure it is what you meant. But scripture is plain Christ does the will of the Father, he and the Father are one. They are not against each other nor are they at emnity about how to do things right..
I meant that Jesus is coming back with a different purpose from that when He first came. The first time, the Father sent Him to be the sacrifice for the world in His, the Father's love. This time He is coming back to rule, to establish righteousness in the earth, to make the world give glory to His Father.

I certainly did not mean that He would be in opposition to His Father.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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Hi VW,

Have read again of what you said, Im not sure it is what you meant. But scripture is plain Christ does the will of the Father, he and the Father are one. They are not against each other nor are they at emnity about how to do things right..
I am still trying to figure out how that phrase got in my post????

Sometimes, when I am posting here, I get distracted by my children and my wife. (Not to blame them. LOL) I really think that I meant to say from the first time.

Thanks for pointing out the error to me.

In Christ,
vic
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Zone, I agree with most of what you're saying here, that's not the problem, Israel is still where Yeshua will reign from and is the place we need to support and pray for. Like anyone else that teaches a false doctrine we are to refute them and make sure we do our job as YHWH leads us to spread His truth. You have no idea of how much I speak to my brethren about the deception of Talmud and other similar doctrine, including false doctrine under the christian titles as well. I.E. mormons, jehovah witness, etc. Try standing in front of someone with a gun trying to show them what they've been taught is a lie, and that Yeshua is the only way. Try being surrounded by muslims who hate you and your telling them that Yeshua is the true Messiah and not Mohammed, not knowing if you're going to walk away alive. Where I live there is great persecution against anyone who believes in Yeshua. The point of it all is we are to love our enemies, pray for those who hate you, and persecute you and say all evil towards you. But when someone who is suppose to be a child of God is attacking everything about Israel, that person is making it harder on us. There are alot of Hebrew/jews who are coming to Messiah all the time. This is why all of the Body of Messiah needs to pray for each other, so help me by praying for those like me in Israel who are spreading the Gospel of Yeshua/Jesus to the lost. Shalom
You have no idea of how much I speak to my brethren about the deception of Talmud

please do more of that here.

you are aware of the lethal deception of Darbyite/Scofieldian dispensationalism which is American Evangelicalism for the most part. you are also aware that the Rabbis (and Knesset) use christian zionism to further the aims of the Talmud, which is the taking by force and violence of the region called Greater Israel.

There are alot of Hebrew/jews who are coming to Messiah all the time.

AMEN.
and thank you for clearing up the dispensational false doctrine that "jews are currently blinded until the fulness of the gentiles come in".
thank you for confirming that God has NOT cast away His people whom He foreknew, that the election are being saved every day.

i know what you are up against as a Christian trying to talk to unbelievers (including jews) about Jesus. i do it too.

Israel is still where Yeshua will reign from

HUH? Christ is returning to Judge and create the new heavens new earth and NEW JERUSALEM.
have you also believed dispensationalism?

do you not believe your brother Paul of the tribe of Benjamin that current Jerusalem (Hagar) is CAST OUT? THAT NEW JERUSALEM IS OUR HOME?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
When Jesus walked the earth as a man, He walked in the land that He had given to the children of Israel. And He considered them His people. He chose to be born of this very people. And they are not different from us......except for this; they were the people who received the promises, who had the covenants, who were blessed (or cursed) with the judges and the prophets. And the received the Law. All of these things were God's choice.
And because of this choice, they were and still are separate as a people from the rest of the world. .
liars just get more and more tangled in their webs.

you would rebuild what Christ tore down (the wall that divided jew and gentile)

Ephesians 2:14
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.

1 Corinthians 12:13
Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.

and you would tear down what He already laid: the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

In addition, the Gentiles were excluded from these promises by birth, because God did not choose them, until Jesus came and died. For with His death the division of choice was removed, in the removing of the Law..
which is it?
are they separate or not?

Israel did not act righteously towards Jesus. They did not believe in Him, did not hear His voice. They were looking for a Messiah to restore to them the kingdom, something like the kingdom under Solomon. They could not accept a King who had come in a way and for a purpose that was unexpected, that did not meettheir understanding of scripture. And so they rejected Him out of hand, and even as He was hanging on the cross and all the signs of His death shook them greatly, they stood back and said, "this was not the Christ, was He?"
a bible lesson?

The Jews are still looking for their messiah, their conquering King. And one will come, who seems to fit every thought they have about who He should be. But this one will be false, the Antichrist. And many among them will be deceived, because he will offer them just what they have been waiting for so long. And there will be tremendous death and destruction for them, and by the end of their relationship with this man, they will have lost nearly everything. It will be a calamity unlike any this people has ever seen, and they have seen plenty.
this has just dawned on you (likely FROM THIS THREAD) and now you will claim you believed it all along.
what a joke.

We should learn a lesson from this, unless we too would suffer calamity. We are apt to make the same mistake that Israel did, unless we truly seek His face. Much that we believe is in the same vein as they believed when He first came. We have not looked beyond that which is obvious to our natural mind, to see the deeper things, even the deep things of God. One can be very learned in the scriptures, and very knowledgable about doctrine, and know very little of Jesus. And this has the danger of leading us to make the same error they did all those years ago. We should remember that as people we are no different from them, nor are we any smarter..
back to warning the church again with all your phony beliefs about what REAL christians do and do not believe.

you are the on who is in trouble VW. if you think Christ will not hold to to account for prophesying falsely IN HIS NAME you are DEAD WRONG.

while you've been off scribbling 6 million words from "jesus" that probably should be canon (if they were real),. SOME of us have actually been doing what we are commanded to do....that's what this thread is for.

incidentally, since it was started by an antisemite and a nazi, i don't know why you are posting here.

Jesus is coming back with a different aim, a different goal, a different purpose from His Father, this time. He is coming to set things right, to restore the acient tabernacle, to restore God's rule over the earth, and to destroy all the works of the devil.

And to be the mediator between men and God, men of flesh who remain living in the earth. And most importantly, to take the throne that is rightfully His, as the descendant of David. From that throne, He will rule the world, and the nations of the world, with a rod of iron.

It would do is well to recognize arrogance in ourselves and repent before He returns.
WHAT????????

well well well.........

and there you have it.
the perfect setup.

you better read the part in red.
 
May 18, 2011
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You have no idea of how much I speak to my brethren about the deception of Talmud

please do more of that here.
I just got here you got to give me a chance.

you are aware of the lethal deception of Darbyite/Scofieldian dispensationalism which is American Evangelicalism for the most part. you are also aware that the Rabbis (and Knesset) use christian zionism to further the aims of the Talmud, which is the taking by force and violence of the region called Greater Israel
There's always someone/s somewhere trying to do something against true believers. That's why we need to focus through prayer and fasting on cutting it off with love and compassion but blunt and bold. What do you mean "taking by force and violence of the region called greater Israel.?"


i know what you are up against as a Christian trying to talk to unbelievers (including jews) about Jesus. i do it too.
I ask this without sarcasm, but truly curious. Do you really now what we go through, have you been in a situation of sharing Messiah and have someone/s so mad that you know you may not walk away alive? If so I would to hear of your experience, for it is something to Praise YHWH/God about.


HUH? Christ is returning to Judge and create the new heavens new earth and NEW JERUSALEM.
have you also believed dispensationalism?

do you not believe your brother Paul of the tribe of Benjamin that current Jerusalem (Hagar) is CAST OUT? THAT NEW JERUSALEM IS OUR HOME?
I don't touch dispensationalism or any other ism's, but I do know that scripture says that Messiah will rule and reign from Jerusalem for 1000 yrs. with the building of the Ez. temple. And then after that, YHWH/God will create a new Heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem will descend upon it.
Refresh my memory of where Paul states that. Shalom
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I just got here you got to give me a chance.
fair enough Avinu:)

i do hope just for one thing from you: that you could confirm for your fellows in Christ that the Religion they have been taught that is practised in Israel (or in the diaspora) is Moses and the Prophets IS NOT MOSES AND THE PROPHETS...please tell them what it is.

(i watched the Sanhedrin reappear in 2004 after a 1600 year disappearance.....i have been watching them quietly setup THE NOAHIDE LAWS)

you see, we have an extremely grave problem in the west.

it is called Dispensational Theology. the worst that came of it was Cyrus Scofield and His Study Bible.

Yahoo! Search - Web Search--

sorry about the cached link: for some reason the main page says error: title Analyzing Scofield

any search for a critical analysis
of dispensationalism or scofield etc will give you what you need to understand the LEAVEN.
~

in a nutshell: Scofield filled a KJV with his own"study notes"....he was financed and established by Samuel Untermyer.

Samuel Untermyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scofield's study notes, basically teach the following things....see if you can discern the PURPOSE for such twisting:

- Daniel 9 not fulfilled by Jesus, The Most Holy anointed in the jordan by the baptizer.

- this dispensational theory severed Daniel's 69th week from the 70th, placed the 70th week some 2000+ into the future (the 7 year "tribulation" whereby the "blind" jews are made right with God back under The Temple System and terrible tribulation).....

- meanwhile, the PLAN B church God scrambled to cobble together when the Pharisees rejected Jesus has been raptured off somewhere for 7 years, while the jews fight it out with a papal antichrist or some other figure, as they try to do what's right by SACRIFICING ANIMALS in the rebuilt temple.

- God is now pleased with this, since He had to blind the jews to Messiah because He was rejected and the Kingdom was postponed.

- pretribulation rapture of the Plan B church (mostly all gentiles, but a few jews)

- the Church is NOT iSRAEL NOR VICE VERSA. THERE ARE 2 PEOPLES OF GOD, AND THEY REMAIN SEPARATE. there are 2 Covenants currently in place since the Pharisees rejected Jesus. the jews don't need Jesus right now since God will deal with them later in the Olam Ha Ba. (remember untermyer)

- scofield and dispensationalism says that anyone saying the New Covenant church "replaces" national israel is anathema (the only problem with that is what is there to replace? THE CHURCH IS THE ISRAEL OF GOD, beginning first with the jew, then the gentile - there's nothing to replace!)

- since Daniel 9 was not fulfilled according to the Scriptures, Scofieldism says, the one mentioned who confirms a covenant with many is NOT JESUS, but the devil.

- since the jews (many, but not the election?) rejected Jesus the first time, THE KINGDOM IS POSTPONED......Jesus was rendered impotent as King, isn't reigning now, and God quickly decided to open up salvation to the gentiles.

- at the same time He came up with the idea of a Plan B church, He blinded all the jews so they couldn't come to salvation until the very last days, since they had rejected Jesus, and after all, doesn't ROMANS 11 mean every jew who ever lived MUST BE SAVED?

- in order to make certain every jew who ever lived will be saved, God has now added 1,000 (this is the Judaic Olam HaBa deception) years to end of Redemptive History in order to:

a) resurrect all jews who ever lived into 2nd flesh bodies temporarily during this mystery millennium, so that they can now get saved. they will somehow be taught by "christians" (mostly gentiles, but some jews) who are in spirit bodies, teaching them, as the Glorified Christ sits in a rebuilt temple in old Jerusalem.

............and on and on it goes.

THIS is what American Evangelicalism looks like. its not the individual's fault necessarily, since this junk was introduced in the last 2 generations and permeated nearly every congregation in the west.

Scofield (Darby et al) said that God does NOT deal with man in COVENANTS, rather in DISPENSATIONS OF TIME:

He lists seven periods of time:
1. Innocence -- creation to the Fall. (Ge 2:16-17.) 2. Conscience -- from the Fall to the Flood.
3. Human government -- from the Flood to Abram
4. Promise -- Abram to the giving of the Law on Sinai.
5. Law -- Sinai to the Cross of Christ.
6. Grace -- from the death of Christ to the judgments in Revelation.
7. Kingdom -- the last of the ordered ages -- the time Christ will restore the Davidic kingdom and reign one thousand years.
now, brother Avinu, you and i both know God deals with His people this way:
1. Edenic -- a charge and a test. (Ge 1:26-31.) 2. Adamic -- the entry of sin required a hope and a discipline. (Genesis.)
3. Noahic -- a new start and promise of the SEED of a woman. (Ge 6:3, 9:1-17.)
4. Abrahamic -- a series of revelations to Abraham make up the Covenant (Ge 12:1-3; 13:14-17: 15:1-21; 17:1-27; 18:1-53; 21: 1-13; 22:1-18.)
5. Mosaic -- this Covenant was written and dedicated with blood. (Ex 19:1-9; 20:1-22; 24:1-18; Dt 5:2-5.)
6. Davidic -- 2Sa 7:10-17; 1Ch 17:9-15; major portions are found in Psalms 16;22; 89:3-4, 34, 37; 110:1-4.
7. The New Covenant in our Lord. (Mt 25:26-28; Lk 22:20; Jn 12:47-50; 14:6; Heb 1:1-3; 2:1-4; 4:16; 5:9-10; 12:22-28; Ro 14:9; 10:9: Ac 2:33; Eph 4:8; 1Ti 2:5.) (From The Seven Covenants by Charles G. Weston.)
do you agree Avinu that there is NOW but ONE COVENANT? and that it was confirmed by Jesus at the First Advent when he was CUT OFF (but not for Himself, for His people)?

and that gentiles (as was purposed from eternity past - Eph) are grafted in to that TREE, which is Christ? making all the same in Him, no difference?

do you agree that ALL jews and gentiles must press ino that New Covenant Church now or perish? i mean, really.

just to show the tragic absurdity of this "theological" system, which of the following passages is right?

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins

Scofield 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins, except i have excused you from this since you reject me, i'll postpone the kingdom, so carry on and 2000+ years from now i'll deal with you then”


There's always someone/s somewhere trying to do something against true believers. That's why we need to focus through prayer and fasting on cutting it off with love and compassion but blunt and bold. What do you mean "taking by force and violence of the region called greater Israel.?"
you yourself posted elsewhere that the physical or temporal is the type of the spiritual.
this is true of The Promised Land (Hebrews)...Joshua led the children into the Promised land, and as you know, according to the scriptures, NOT ONE GOOD THING DO PROMISED THEIR FOREFATHERS FAILED TO COME TO PASS.

we also know the writer of hebrews warned the israelites that, just as in that day, if they refused to hear the voice of God calling them to JESUS for forgivenness of sins and eternal life, they too would die in their sins.

now: The Pharisees with their"holy books" have been planning all these centuries to take the land you see on the maps. they believe it belongs to them, regardless of that "Jesus"....and, Scofield's dispensational theology, which has given birth to christain zionism has been the RIGHT HAND of power for this plan, without ever knowing it (at least, the ordinary people don't - neither jew nor gentile).

the corruption of Genesis 12 (making it about Israel instead of Jesus) has diverted money, weapons and blood for this plan, causing well meaning christians who believe they are doing the right thing to do THE WRONG THING.

one example: click to see the map....then think about the recent events in the ME.





GlobalSecurity.org - Reliable Security Information|||


"Bead Artzein" (For the Homeland)
[SIZE=+1]"THE ISRAELI STATE FROM THE NILE TO THE EUPHRATES"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Demonstration in Jerusalem September 4, 2001[/SIZE]


B. Rosenfeld
From the newspaper " Novosty nedely », 06/09/2001 On Tuesday, September 4 at 17:30 in the square before the Jerusalem town hall was held a demonstration remarkable both its theme and its form.
The demonstration in support of the Idea of the State Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates was organised by the movement “Bead Artzein” (“For the Homeland”), headed by rabbi and historian Avrom Shmulevic from Hebron.
“The usual demonstrations by all have bothered, new forms are needed” – said the activists. The bright performance, called by the participants as a "musical-political action", apart from speeches, slogans and distribution of leaflets, included the show of the rock group "Gosplan". On the backstage of the demonstration were casually appended pictures on militarist themes by the Haifa artist, appointed with the “Medals of the City of Haifa for his contribution to art”, Igor Cherchenko. The demonstration was concluded by a symbolical act – from a date-palm (symbol of the Country of Israel), under loud shouts of approval and appropriate music, was hung a puppet of Arafat.
The participants arrived from every corner of Israel: from Jerusalem, Hebron, Tel Aviv, Haifa and even Kyriat-Shmona – hundreds of people, including the active members of movement – and Arabs from Eastern Jerusalem, dissatisfied with Arafat’s terror.
“The Israeli society lays in a state of deep systemic crisis, its total renewal is necessary, if you like - a revolution. Our movement unites the people, who cannot breath in this suffocating atmosphere, while the souls of those who love our land and our people is open to the New and Strange” - explains Abraham Shmulevic.



“The process of national revival of the Jewish people is irreversible and has its internal logic” - he says. “We shall have no peace as long as the whole territory of the Country of Israel will not return under Jewish control. This might sound too hard, but such is the logic of history. The war on the Holy Land has been already fought for four thousand years and the end cannot be seen. A stable peace will come only then, when Israel will return to itself all its historical lands, and will thus control both the Suez and the Ormudz channel. The state will find at last its geostrategic completeness. We must remember that Iraqi oil fields too are located on the Jewish land. This may seem utopia to many now - but an even greater utopia seemed a hundred years ago the revival of the Jewish state. As Hertzil said: "If you want it, this will not not be a fairy tale" ”.

" A long road begins with one step " – says an ancient proverb. This step to the renaissance of Greater Israel in its biblical borders was made in the centre of Jerusalem.


Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates


I ask this without sarcasm, but truly curious. Do you really now what we go through, have you been in a situation of sharing Messiah and have someone/s so mad that you know you may not walk away alive? If so I would to hear of your experience, for it is something to Praise YHWH/God about.
only once have i been physically assaulted....i've been threatened with physical violence more than once, and most assuredly have endured most of the same name-calling and insults you have. i've been rejected by most of my family, and no longer know any of my old friends.

my best friend in Christ was raised as a jew: i know what he goes through.

but isn't that what happens?

undoubtedly you have a much much rougher go of it in israel. but men around the world hate the Cross, don't they?

but i give thanks for you, and i will pray for your continuing effectual witness, and that many more would come under the saving Blood of Jesus....He has not cast away His people, for even at THIS PRESENT TIME THERE IS A REMNANT ACCORDING TO GRACE....nice to meet you Avinu, as you are among them, and us.

I don't touch dispensationalism or any other ism's, but I do know that scripture says that Messiah will rule and reign from Jerusalem for 1000 yrs. with the building of the Ez. temple. And then after that, YHWH/God will create a new Heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem will descend upon it.
Refresh my memory of where Paul states that. Shalom

see above.
love zone.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Refresh my memory of where Paul states that. Shalom
sorry.
i missed this part.

Galatians 4
Sons and Heirs
1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,a though he is the owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principlesb of the world. 4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

12Brothers,c I entreat you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong. 13You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first, 14and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?d 17They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. 18It is always good to be made much of for a good purpose, and not only when I am present with you, 19my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! 20I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.

~ it's this part we discussed:

Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.


zone
 
Dec 19, 2009
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Now Hagar stands for mount Sania in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children

But if the people of Jerusalem become saved, they will no longer be in slavery. The earthly Jerusalem will not then be representative of the old covenant but of the new
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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see what i mean Avinu?

2 Peter 3:13
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
 
May 18, 2011
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Zone, I will give you one thing, you don't lack for information. lol. If someone is going to dispute you, they better come prepared. I must admit, I don't do well with the long typing, because to respond to all this, I'll double it in size. I do agree with some of what you have, some I have my thoughts on, and a couple things I won't pretend to be educated about. I've done guest speaking in America, plus what God has given me at home, A saying I've had for a while is, in the end we are all going to find out just how much we have things wrong,lol. But the purpose is to study to show ourselves approved, to be ready to give a defense for the faith. Something YHWH has been teaching me more and more lately, is to choose my battles. I've seen people argue to the grave, both having scripture to back there argument, but no one getting anywhere. I believe there are some things that we can't let slide also. God tells us to be wise as serpents and gentle as a dove. We are to seek God with all our heart in all truth with fear and trembling, that's what we need to share and direct in the most(Yeshua). We plant seeds, we water and God gives the increase. It's our job to show what scripture says, it's God job to make it stick if it's His truth. There are things that you and I as well as others, that have things that we believe we are confident we understand, but we are missing something. We have to remember that we are always teachable from others, as we are teachers. We are to be humble in all things and above all showing love, patience,meekness, longsuffering etc. Shalom

p.s. I have do enjoy getting into these midrashes as long as we keep the love in it. And keep the type as short as possible. lol
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Zone, I will give you one thing, you don't lack for information. lol. If someone is going to dispute you, they better come prepared. I must admit, I don't do well with the long typing, because to respond to all this, I'll double it in size. I do agree with some of what you have, some I have my thoughts on, and a couple things I won't pretend to be educated about. I've done guest speaking in America, plus what God has given me at home, A saying I've had for a while is, in the end we are all going to find out just how much we have things wrong,lol. But the purpose is to study to show ourselves approved, to be ready to give a defense for the faith. Something YHWH has been teaching me more and more lately, is to choose my battles. I've seen people argue to the grave, both having scripture to back there argument, but no one getting anywhere. I believe there are some things that we can't let slide also. God tells us to be wise as serpents and gentle as a dove. We are to seek God with all our heart in all truth with fear and trembling, that's what we need to share and direct in the most(Yeshua). We plant seeds, we water and God gives the increase. It's our job to show what scripture says, it's God job to make it stick if it's His truth. There are things that you and I as well as others, that have things that we believe we are confident we understand, but we are missing something. We have to remember that we are always teachable from others, as we are teachers. We are to be humble in all things and above all showing love, patience,meekness, longsuffering etc. Shalom

p.s. I have do enjoy getting into these midrashes as long as we keep the love in it. And keep the type as short as possible. lol
lol.
okay bud.
address any of it if you can...
and best wishes in your travels.
in Christ
zone
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Yes Grey .......let's do that.

Today's Israel Is God On Her Side?

By Jon Zens
"Rev. Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority, says he has been assured by Prime Minister Menachem Begin that Israel eventually will control an area that includes parts of Egypt and Turkey. 'Begin shares the Biblical view of the promised land,' said Falwell in a copyright story in Sunday's editions of the Tyler Courier-Times Telegraph. He said Begin, whom he termed a personal friend, told him that the first book of the Bible predicts Israel eventually will have boundaries on the Euphrates and Nile rivers and will include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait." - Eugene Register-Guard (Eugene, OR), Feb. 7, 1983.
The above Israel-centered sentiments reflect one popular viewpoint among Bible-believers in America. Adherents of this view believe that all nations must bless and protect Israel or incur God's wrath. Few, however, realize that this particular prophetic perspective began in England with the Irvingites and J. N. Darby in the 1830's. This outlook had never before been suggested in the history of Christian thinking. Yet, because of seven trips that Darby made to America during his lifetime in the nineteenth century, his views ultimately came to dominate among evangelicals in the States.
The essence of this position is that
God has two purposes in history, an earthly one with Israel and a heavenly one with the church. From this vantage point what transpires in the world is Israel-centered. Hence, Charles Feinberg's 1980 book is titled Israel: At The Center of History and Revelation (Multnomah Press). As a result, the literature on "prophecy" that fills the shelves of bookstores brings readers the following dogmatic opinions:
What is God's will for today? This can be put into one word: Israel. Israel is the final chord of a scriptural age and at the same time she is the prelude to a new age, the millennium, the thousand year reign of peace. The eternal God is busy today fulfilling His holy will, that is, concerning Israel herself . . . All nations are compelled today to do God's will so that it is actually being said to Israel, "be built" and to the temple "be laid."
This two-purposes theory, which came to be called "Dispensationalism," carries with it a peculiar notion about Israel's "right" to certain geographical territory in Palestine. Proponents of this view claim that God has given Israel that land "forever." If she has a "divine right" to this soil, then it is easy to see how this provides justification for all types of military conflict, and causes a stumbling block to peaceful political solutions in the Middle East. (Of course, the problem is compounded since all Middle Eastern nations claim that God is with them).
Does Israel have God's sanction to possess a land in these days? Must Christians support Israel because God is with her in some special way? Is this post-1948 nation the center of history? Is Christ or Israel the focus of God's revelation? These and other questions will be addressed in what follows. God Promised a Land to Abraham
In Genesis 12:5-7 God spoke to Abraham and promises, "to your seed I will give this land." This foundational promise to Abram is the premise for contemporary claims that God has given a specific land to Israel "forever."
However, it is significant that Paul saw these words given to Abram -- "In you all the nations will be blessed" -- as an announcement of the gospel to the Gentiles, not as an indication of Israel's centrality as a measuring stick for world events (Gal. 3:8). God Sealed This Promise in a Covenant Ceremony
In Genesis 15:7-21 God makes a covenant with Abraham which was ratified by God symbolically passing through the pieces of meat. The giving of a defined territory is at the heart of this solemn ceremony: "to your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river Euphrates; the Kenites, the Kenizites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perrizites, the Rephaims, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and Jesu****es."
In the midst of this covenant-making event, the future of Israel is spelled out: bondage in Egypt for 400 years; the judgment upon Pharaoh; the Exodus; and entrance into the land described above in the fourth generation. God Fulfilled This Abrahamic Promise Later in History It is clear from a number of Old Testament statements that the land-promises to Abraham was indeed fulfilled. The land was given as delineated in Genesis 15, and several verses in Joshua are especially forceful in this regard:
So Joshua took the entire land, just as the Lord had directed Moses, and He gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions (Josh. 11:23) . . . So the Lord gave Israel all the land He had sworn to their forefathers, and they
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took possession of it and settled there. The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their forefathers . . . Not one of all the Lord's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled (Josh. 21:41-45).
There are many other Old Testament scriptures that echo this fulfillment theme (Gen. 28:13-15; 1 Kings 4:21, 8:56; Deut. 28; Exodus 3:17, 6:8; Deut. 30:20, 1:8, 7:2, 11:23, 34:1-4; Joshua 23:13-16; Neh. 9:8, 21-25). If the territorial dimension of the Lord's promise to Abraham was fulfilled, as these scriptures assert, this raises serious questions about the propriety of suggesting that twentieth-century "Israel" has a divine claim to this land. The Lord accomplished His word: He gave the descendants of Abraham the land described in Genesis 15:18-21. To purport that God has somehow not yet fulfilled the land-promises, or that they actually came to fruition in 1948, is to stretch the original prophetic word to Abraham beyond recognition.
Israel's Remaining in this Land was Conditioned on Obedience
There are many verses in Deuteronomy that reflect the foundation of the Mosaic covenant, "do this and live," with respect to the land. If Israel ever went after other gods and broke the covenant, she was assured by God that she would be "cast out of the land," Abiding in the land God had given to them was linked to their faithfulness. Unfaithfulness had serious consequences.
Israel's later history reflected the implications of her disobedience. The land was invaded by foreigners, and Israel was captive in a strange land. As time went on the Israelites were "dispersed" to various places in the world. It is this "casting out" of Israel from the land that sets the stage for a future concept of regathering into that lost territory. The New Testament Perspective on Israel and the Land
The New Testament teaches that the formation, history and institutions of Israel were types and shadows of spiritual realities that would come in the days of the Messiah (Heb. 8:1-5; 1 Cor. 10:18). The essential elements of Israel's life as a covenant people (prophet, priest, king, sacrificial system, ark of the covenant, etc.) were all fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Luke 24:27, 44-45; Rom. 15:8; 2 Cor. 1:20).
The preparatory nature of the Mosaic economy must be underscored. The law-covenant had an historical beginning and ending (Gal. 3:17, 19, 25). the old covenant was temporary and lasted only "until the Seed (Christ) had come." When the fulfillment had come there was no reason to continue the types and shadows (Col. 2:16-17). Israel as an earthly people separated to God by the Exodus was to be fulfilled by Christ, whose obedience unto death constituted a New Exodus that would separate a New Covenant people for God's service.
It is only in this light that the "promised land" must be evaluated. The land given to Israel was never intended to be an end in itself. It pointed to something better in the future. Even Abraham who received the promises did not focus on earthly geography, but rather on a "better country -- a heavenly one . . . whose architect and builder is God" (Heb. 11:16, 10). Like other aspects of Israel's covenant life, the land was a picture of gospel realities to come, not an ongoing entity to be somehow reclaimed in the future by an earthly people in 1948.
The concept of "Israel" is fulfilled both in Christ and in the new people of God, the body of Christ. Jesus, like Israel, is called out of Egypt (Matt. 2:15) and finds Himself in the wilderness (Matt. 4:1-2). 2 Jesus, unlike Israel, is obedient to the covenant and is the "faithful servant" referred to in the Prophets.
In light of the emphasis given to alleged unalterable made to Israel about the land, it is instructive to recall that God's words were addressed to Abraham and his "seed," says Paul, was singular and refers to Christ, not to an earthly people (Gal. 3:16). Thus, for example, the promised offspring to Abraham must be seen as an innumerable company of believers, not as a regathering of an earthly nation (Gal. 3:29; Rev. 5:9, 7:9). The physical descendants of Abraham, who indeed became like the sand of the sea in number, were a picture of the harvest Christ would accomplish in the gospel age from every tribe, kindred and people. For this reason believers can be referred to by Paul as "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16). The Rise of "Zionism" Because Israel was cast out of the covenant land and forced to exist in cultures outside of Palestine, it is not suprising that as history elapsed a new form of Israelite nationalism would arise.
From the time of Constantine onwards those attached to the synagogues had a rough time functioning in other countries. They were often persecuted, mistreated, misunderstood and discriminated against. Nevertheless, being hard workers, they tended to prosper in their trades and businesses.
"Zion" came to refer to the deep attachment most Jews had for their homeland. "Zionism" is primarily a modern movement that arose out of some social struggles of the nineteenth century. Anti-Semitism, especially in Eastern Europe and Russia, caused the Jews to long for a rebirth of Judaism. This became connected to their "right" to the old promised land.
"Zionism" was divided into two camps. Some, like Ahad Ha'am, focused on spiritual renewal. But the major thrust, which was essentially political and nationalistic, came from men like Moses Hess, Leo Pinsker and Theodor Herzl.
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In the late nineteenth century some wealthy Jews in Western Europe helped assist in the establishment of small Jewish colonies in Palestine. In this context, Theodor Herzl's Der Judenstaat, "The Jewish State" (1896), became the foundation for modern Zionism. He came to the conclusion that a homeland for the Jews was the only solution to the mistreatments they were experiencing in most other places. Under his guidance the first Zionist Congress met in Basel, Switzerland, in 1897 and the World Zionist Organization was formed.
A proposal for a Jewish homeland obviously created a serious conflict with those already living in Palestine. What would happen to those already occupying this region? Would these people leave peacefully so that Jews could live in "their" land?
Herzl's ideas were passed on to a Russian-born Jew, Chaim Weizmann, in 1904. Because of his discovery of a powerful explosive called cordite (he was a chemist at the University of Manchester), Weizmann was brought into prominence. He used his influence top try and get the British government to conquer Palestine, hold it for Jewish immigration and settlement, and then allow the land to be used for British interests. Through a series of events the British took over Jerusalem in December of 1917. Then in the Balfour Declaration it was stated that Britain favored the establishment of a home in Palestine for the Jews, but not to the hurt of those already living in the area.
Needless to say, in the ensuing years tensions began to mount between Jewish settlers and the Arab population.
The Biltmore Conference (May, 1942), led by David Ben-Gurion, stated that British-controlled Palestine should become Jewish property. This alarmed many Jews, and as a result an anti-Zionist program regained strength and support. But Arabs resisted the importation of Jews into the land.
In 1947 the British turned over their control of Palestine to the newly-formed United Nations Organization. Under much political pressure, the U. N. finally partitioned off a small portion of the land (the size of Vermont) for the Jews in November of 1947. as the British withdrew in 1948, armed groups of Zionists forced thousands of Arabs to leave their homes. In the midst of this conflict there was a declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948.
Since then there has been constant pressure for Jews to return to "the land." world Zionism looks upon this State as the home of all Jews. The Justification for Occupying "The Land" In order to justify the many political and military actions necessary to establish, maintain, defend and expand "the land," Zionists have used many Old Testament texts. Inherent in this approach is the idea that God is on Israel's side, and that He has purposed for her to possess this land. With this foundation a rationale is provided to kill people, to displace thousands of people, and to do what it takes to "rule."
"Support Israel or Experience God's Wrath" - Jerry Falwell To add to the problem many conservative Christians believe that the Old Testament supports Israel's right to the land, and they see May 14, 1948, as an amazing fulfillment of "prophecy." Those who hold to this perspective believe that Christians must be pro-Israel. Jerry Falwell asserted at a meeting of religious broadcasters, "theologically, any Christian has to support Israel, simply because Jesus said to."3 During the 1973 Yom Kippur war, Oral Roberts confidently posited, "there is no way Israel is going to be defeated, according to the Bible."4
Thus many television and radio preachers and Christian leaders fervently encourage their followers to support Israel in her efforts to maintain the land, and even exhort believers to contribute financial aid for Israel's cause.
Based on God's promise to Abraham -- "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you" -- many preachers are dogmatic in saying that all nations must support Israel or be doomed to the worst calamities.5 This leads to the conviction, of course, that the USA must support Israel's cause or experience God's wrath, as Jerry Falwell suggested.6 Tremendous pressure is exerted by pro-Israel forces upon our State Department not to do anything that would violate our good relations with Israel. To compound this problem, recent U. S. Presidents have embraced the notion of Israel's divine right to the land.7 "God Is With Us" The position of the Zionists and of many Christians creates many serious problems. If God is on Israel's side, then it becomes virtually impossible to critique her policies and actions. In principle, whatever Israel does must be right since God backs her supremacy in the land. We must never forget, however, that "God is with us" was inscribed on the belt buckles of those who burned Jews in ovens. History reveals that the "God is with us" slogan has often been behind the worst of atrocities. God Is Not With Israel or Any Other Nation In the former days God did separate Israel for Himself and give her the land promised to Abraham. Israel was special among all the nations of the earth (Deut. 7). But ultimately the blessing upon Abraham was to be given to all the nations (Matt. 28:19-20). With the coming of Christ God fulfilled all the promises to the fathers (Rom. 15:8). In this age, "God does not show favoritism, but accepts people from every nation who fear Him and do what is right" (Acts 10:34).
All of Israel's institutions were fulfilled in Christ -- including the land concept (Heb. 3-4). The Old Testament clearly states
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that God kept His work and gave the land to Israel. The notion that God had to give the land "again" is without Biblical foundation.
There is nothing wrong with Jews living in a certain land, but to claim a "divine right" to it and to employ this claim as a basis for disrupting, hurting, and killing others is wrong. God is not with people when they manipulate and intimidate others. God uses the wicked actions of people in His purposes, but He does not sanction them. Concluding Thoughts . . .
The Middle East conflicts have no easy solution. But we can be sure that a solution for the benefit of all involved cannot be realized as long as many Jews and Christians continue to maintain that God is with Israel in the taking of "the land." The "divine right" notion will only block efforts for peace in the Middle East. It can only serve as continued Justification for taking the lives of others in "serving God's cause."
More importantly, however, it must be noted that the Israel-centeredness of much Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism diverts attention away from the One God has set His seal upon -- Jesus Christ (John 6:27; Matt. 3:17). People are blessed or cursed not by how they treat Israel, but by how they respond to the claims of Christ upon their lives (Psalm 2:12; 1 Cor. 16:22). God's purpose focuses on the Son, not on an earthly nation (Eph. 1:22). The unfolding of the future is not gauged by what happens to Israel, but by what Christ is doing to build His congregations.
The Scriptures -- Old and New -- specifically tell us how God is with us. Jesus' name was Immanuel -- "God with us." God is with those who are in his Son, not with any nation. In this sense, then, He is with all those believers who are "in Christ."
A brilliantly informative summation. Unfortunately, few of the indoctrinated Dispo hoarde will be swayed or enlightened.
 
N

NoahsMom

Guest
God tells us to be wise as serpents and gentle as a dove. We are to seek God with all our heart in all truth with fear and trembling, that's what we need to share and direct in the most(Yeshua). We plant seeds, we water and God gives the increase. It's our job to show what scripture says, it's God job to make it stick if it's His truth. There are things that you and I as well as others, that have things that we believe we are confident we understand, but we are missing something. We have to remember that we are always teachable from others, as we are teachers. We are to be humble in all things and above all showing love, patience,meekness, longsuffering etc. Shalom
Wise words indeed.