50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Jan 31, 2021
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It's not ME who "spiritualizes" Rev20... You're thinking of T7t7 (or possibly Runningman), who DO do this.

Not me. ;)

[*I* believe there will be a LITERAL, future, earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19]

Get some rest, bro... :sleep:
Good to know, bro... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Absolutely correct.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so IN Christ all shall be made alive.

Certainly not a general resurrection for unbelievers....all in Christ shall be made alive.
Then Paul goes on to describe the nature of the resurrection body fit for HEAVEN.
There is no reason whatsoever to think that these passages are dealing with anyone other than the Church.

1 Cor 15:48-49
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
And as WE have borne the image of the man of dust, WE shall also bear the image of the heavenlyMan.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Please! Please can we just follow the script?
Yes, let's do.

12 And I beheld when He opened the 6th seal...
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Why would anyone try to imagine some other time when John GIVES US the time: the 6th seal.
Well, it's not clear that he didn't. "is come" is in the aorist. He just as easily was saying that it's ALREADY here.

Why wouldn't the FIRST seal be when the Trib begins, and the DOTL with it? Please explain.

Can you explain why you don't believe John and imagine you know better?
Actually, I do believe John. And he spoke of God's wrath has already being here. In fact, all of ch 6 is about the beginning of the trib. Not just the 6th seal judgment.

Why do YOU believe that the wrath begins with the 6th seal, and not the first one? My view is more reasonable than yours.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
You seem not to even grasp the real issue here.
Sure I do: the real issue is WHEN the rapture takes place, before the trib or after the trib. If you could prove only one more coming by scripture, that would be a good start. If you could prove Paul's rapture comes after the trib, that would be a good start. Just showing His coming and then the gathering proves both pre and post trib. We ALL believe that. What pretribber DON"T believe is that there is only one more coming of our Lord. We believe He comes next FOR His saints, then again 7+ years later WITH His Saints. Just showing a coming proves nothing.
2 Thess 2 PROVES that the Lord's "coming" and "our being gathered to Him" is AFTER the man of sin is REVEALED. That would be the Beast #1, aka AC. So v.1-3 prove that the Trib occurs BEFORE "His coming" and "our being gathered to Him" Got it?

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, v.1 identifies the Second Advent then the "rapture".
v.2 speaks of when the Trib BEGINS. The DOTL begins with the Trib.
v.3 specifically and clearly states that "THAT DAY" (referring to v.1 and the Lord's coming at the Second Advent" "will not come UNTIL the rebellion (aka Trib) occurs and "man of lawlessness is revealed".

It could not be stated any more clearly.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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The issue you skipped is...
When was lot rescued???
After the judgement (your model)

Lot and noah are real stories
Not parables.
Jesus was using REAL examples

it is all beside the point, because Jesus tells us this portion is 'after the tribulation of those days.' The tribulation happens, then the coming of the Son of Man. As the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

Are you saying Jesus was wrong in the earlier part of the passage? Why even bother trying to come up with an interpretation that contradicts what Jesus says earlier in Matthew 24? I don't get it. If you have something really direct like that, interpret the other verses in line with what is clear.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Just as the pre-tribbers deny Gods words regarding truth, you do the same regarding the false teaching of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth,

Many falsely claiming Jesus will come and rule on earth amongst mortal humans in (Deception)

As God's word "Clearly Teaches" below, Jesus Christ returns (Then Cometh The End) Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory, The Eternal Glorified Body Is Received, At This Last Day Resurrection And Changing

Your Millennial Kingdom On Earth Is "Gone", In Light Of God's Presented Words Of Truth Below, "Gone"

Will You Rebel Against The Clear Words Of God?

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
FreeGrace2 said:
Your views are warped. Rev 20 is so clear. But go ahead and reject the truth.

I absolutely stand by my statement. And by Rev 20.

Your "spiritualized" view is baseless.

When people spiritualize verses, they are able to make up anything they want to.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Absolutely correct.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so IN Christ all shall be made alive.

Certainly not a general resurrection for unbelievers....all in Christ shall be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

No general resurrection here......only the rapture and nothing more.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but on a trip from heaven to earth, one has to pass through the atmosphere, where Jesus resurrects all the accompanying dead saints, and gathers up all the living believers and changes them. And THEN He continues on down to earth.

How can the "dead in Christ" be "caught up"? They CAME with Him. It's the living believers who are CAUGHT UP together with THEM (that would be Jesus Christ and the saints already in heaven).
Sometimes I cannot believe the things you write.
It seems as though it is most of the time.

All we are asking is written proof of this. You ask for proof He returns to heaven.
And you don't have any verse, therefore proof.

We are asking for proof He continues down to earth. (We ALL believe He comes to earth in His Rev. 19 coming.)
Well I explained it and you apparently agree. So, great!

I can't believe you would ask! It is the spirit with the soul that Christ brings with Him from heaven.
Did I say otherwise? No.

Their bodies died and turned to dust.
I've said that.

Therefore it will be their BODIES that fly up out of the grave, and changed into resurrection bodies. Then the human spirits join with their old body and are whole once again.
And I've made that clear as well. Where were you?

You amaze me. Did you not read? The dead in Christ are caught up FIRST.
Read my quote again. That's my point.

Then, when the dead in Christ are up in the air and are made complete again, Spirit, soul and body, THEN those alive are caught up and together WITH THEM (the gathering) we all fly up to meet Jesus in the air. Those that have died in Christ are coming to GET THEIR BODIES.
You are very close, but it is their spirit men and women WITH The souls.
On this point, we are TOGETHER, not "very close".
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You are accurate but not right.
A diametrically opposed statement if there ever was one. Both can't be correct.

It is truth that the NEXT coming will be His second coming. And His second coming will be the TRIGGER for first the rapture and next the Day of the Lord. But all this happens BEFORE ANY PART Of the 70th week - it happens between the 5th and 6th seal. (Some think the 7th seal.) Finally, His THIRD coming is shown in Rev. 19.
All you've said here is that there are 3 comings of the Lord. But where is the Scripture that says this?

Who do you know who preaches THE THREE ADVENTS OF CHRIST? I'd like to know.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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it is all beside the point, because Jesus tells us this portion is 'after the tribulation of those days.' The tribulation happens, then the coming of the Son of Man. As the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

Are you saying Jesus was wrong in the earlier part of the passage? Why even bother trying to come up with an interpretation that contradicts what Jesus says earlier in Matthew 24? I don't get it. If you have something really direct like that, interpret the other verses in line with what is clear.
1) it says concerning noah "before the flood"
2) lot is also a prejudgment dynamic
3) neither lot or noah get removed post judgement.

Your model is opposite the bible
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Yes, let's do.
Well, it's not clear that he didn't. "is come" is in the aorist. He just as easily was saying that it's ALREADY here.
Why wouldn't the FIRST seal be when the Trib begins, and the DOTL with it? Please explain.
Actually, I do believe John. And he spoke of God's wrath has already being here. In fact, all of ch 6 is about the beginning of the trib. Not just the 6th seal judgment.
Why do YOU believe that the wrath begins with the 6th seal, and not the first one? My view is more reasonable than yours.
Agreed! (y)
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
Your views are warped. Rev 20 is so clear. But go ahead and reject the truth.

I absolutely stand by my statement. And by Rev 20.

Your "spiritualized" view is baseless.

When people spiritualize verses, they are able to make up anything they want to.
You can say that, but also remember that there ARE clear amill verses.

2 Peter 3:10-13
Matthew 25:31-46
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
Parable of the wheat and tares somewhere in there.

What you see in these verses, especially 2 Peter 3:10ff is that he says we are waiting for a new heaven and a new earth, and that the day of the Lord is coming when the heavens will be dissolved and all that are in the earth shall be burned up. CLEARLY, this doesnt sound like a millennium.

So its not that amilllennialists are "spiritualizing" Rev 20 for the sake of spiritualizing it, they just look at the rest of the new testament and see oh hey, well that doesnt work, has to mean something else then.
As we know, book of revelation is a VERY symbolic book.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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From the millennial temple so noted in Ezekiel 41 and beyond.
Hopefully not with animal sacrifices intact?

I know some here believe in that false teaching. What an INSULT to the blood of Christ!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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YES, you are Scoffing at the Rapture and Pretrib. That is what it is talking about. You are a fulfillment of that Prophecy. I told you SON OF MAN, is when HE comes for HIS BRIDE, in the Clouds. Second COMING is when HE SETS FOOT on Terra Ferma, and beccomes KING OF ALL THE EARTH.

Zechariah 14:4 (NCV)
4 On that day he will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. The Mount of Olives will split in two, forming a deep valley that runs east and west. Half the mountain will move toward the north, and half will move toward the south.

Zechariah 14:7 (NCV)
7 There will be no other day like it, and the LORD knows when it will come. There will be no day or night; even at evening it will still be light.

Zechariah 14:9 (NCV)
9 Then the LORD will be king over the whole world. At that time there will be only one LORD, and his name will be the only name.


Those Three Things will happen on that DAY as HE COMES TO MAKE WAR with the NATIONS, at the Second COMING

The RAPTURE HAPPENS EARLIER; Seven Years earlier. NOT MENTION of the SUN NOT SHINING, NOR the Moon not giving it's normal LIGHT.

A NORMAL DAY with NORMAL ACTIVITIES

Matthew 24:40-42 (NCV)
40 Two men will be in the field. One will be taken, and the other will be left.
41 Two women will be grinding grain with a mill. One will be taken, and the other will be left.
42 So always be ready, because you don’t know the day your Lord will come.

THEREFORE, Normal Activities EQUALS PREMELLIAL RAPTURE.
SO HUMAN BEINGS WOULD BE PANICKING, if he was talking about the SECOND COMING; BUT HE IS NOT, because they are not Panicking. They are busy Havesting. How much would they PANICK ? ? ? HE TELLS US, THIS MUCH:


Revelation 6:7-17 (NCV)
7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, Come!“
8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse. Its rider was named death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill people by war, by starvation, by disease, and by the wild animals of the earth.
9 When the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the word of God and to the message they had received.
10 These souls shouted in a loud voice, “Holy and true Lord, how long until you judge the people of the earth and punish them for killing us?“
11 Then each one of them was given a white robe and was told to wait a short time longer. There were still some of their fellow servants and brothers and sisters in the service of Christ who must be killed as they were. They had to wait until all of this was finished.
12 Then I watched while the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black like rough black cloth, and the whole moon became red like blood. {AND PANICK SETS IN !}
13 And the stars in the sky fell to the earth like figs falling from a fig tree when the wind blows.
14 The sky disappeared as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the rich people, the powerful people, the slaves, and the free people hid themselves in caves and in the rocks on the mountains. {NOBODY WAS IN THE FIELD !}
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us. Hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Lamb!
17 The great day for their anger has come, and who can stand against it?“


I DOES NOT SAY, BUT I SUSPECT HE SAID THAT Come!“, TO TRUE BELIEVERS!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Hopefully not with animal sacrifices intact?

I know some here believe in that false teaching. What an INSULT to the blood of Christ!

THAT, I THINK THE TWO WITNESSES WILL TAKE CARE OF THAT LESSON.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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THEREFORE, Normal Activities EQUALS PREMELLIAL RAPTURE.
SO HUMAN BEINGS WOULD BE PANICKING, if he was talking about the SECOND COMING; BUT HE IS NOT, because they are not Panicking. They are busy Havesting. How much would they PANICK ? ? ? HE TELLS US, THIS MUCH:


Revelation 6:7-17 (NCV)
7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, Come!“
8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse. Its rider was named death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill people by war, by starvation, by disease, and by the wild animals of the earth.
9 When the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the word of God and to the message they had received.
10 These souls shouted in a loud voice, “Holy and true Lord, how long until you judge the people of the earth and punish them for killing us?“
11 Then each one of them was given a white robe and was told to wait a short time longer. There were still some of their fellow servants and brothers and sisters in the service of Christ who must be killed as they were. They had to wait until all of this was finished.
12 Then I watched while the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black like rough black cloth, and the whole moon became red like blood. {AND PANICK SETS IN !}
13 And the stars in the sky fell to the earth like figs falling from a fig tree when the wind blows.
14 The sky disappeared as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the rich people, the powerful people, the slaves, and the free people hid themselves in caves and in the rocks on the mountains. {NOBODY WAS IN THE FIELD !}
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us. Hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Lamb!
17 The great day for their anger has come, and who can stand against it?“


I DOES NOT SAY, BUT I SUSPECT HE SAID THAT Come!“, TO TRUE BELIEVERS!
That first word above shou be IT, sorry about the Typo.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Said the guy with zero basis for his theories.
Show me where noah and lot are taken away post judgement.

Show me where the gathering of live saints in rev 14 FOLLOWS YOUR THEORY of the dead in christ RAISED post trib.

Show me.

I will wait.

Should be easy
NO SMARTY PANTS DEFLECTION

Get a bible and post the remedy to your dilemma