Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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raiment.....lol. Microphone again......
Right on!
[Paul said "Know ye not that we shall JUDGE ANGELS?" 1Cor6:3[14(<--the verb concerning *us* used only one other place)]; and said in Rom16:20, "...the God of peace shall CRUSH Satan UNDER *YOUR* FEET in quickness [noun]"<--same time-frame that Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 speaks of, the "meta tauta" future, specific, LIMITED time-period you speak of ^ quoted at top... and we are told how we are "SNATCHED" to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR... just prior to the commencing of "the Day of the Lord" earthly time-period unfolding upon the earth with its JUDGMENTs and its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME...and with its SEALS/TRUMPETS/VIALS unfolding also...]
Along with the Church itself of course, who are represented by the 24 elders.
Who would be the eldest of all elders?
Adam
Seth
Enos
Cainan
Mahalaleel
Jared
Enoch
Methuselah
Lamech
Noah
Does this give you some ideas or the rest of the 24 Before any of the NT saints will show up? The 24 elders are seen just after Jesus rose from the dead. This was before Jesus breathed on those in the upper room and they were born again. No one every found the rapture in Rev. 4:1. That was John caught up around 95 AD. Why in the world are people thinking 2021 when John and the Holy Spirit are in 95 AD?
NOT "right on!"Right on!
..]
cv5 said
Revelation 4 & 5 are NOT "after the church age." That theory is MYTH. Just one verse proves that;
Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Why are good bible students thinking 2021 and future, when GOD was thinking 32AD?
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Why is the Holy Spirit still in the throne room here? Only one reason: Jesus (at this point in this part of John's vision has not yet ascended. (see 5:6 above.)
There are no thrones, no crowns, no white raiment In the Old?
Yes, John was seeing a VISION.
A vision can be about the past, present or future, or all mixed together. We determine the timing inside the vision by the context of the vision. I think we all agree in this.
The identifiers, characteristics, bequeathed status and gifts GIVEN to these 24 elders are those specific to the Church alone. This is a firmly established precident.
NOT the raptured church, still in our future. Determine the TIMING: The Holy Spirit is still there (4:5) showing us Jesus has not yet ascended to send Him down. (He is sent down in 5:6) How possibly can the elders be the raptured church before Jesus ascended? Impossible! Without a doubt these 24 John saw are elders of the OT who were raised up when Jesus was raised.
Why are saints today thinking future when the timestamps in these passages point to 32 AD?
Both of those verses run subsequent to the meta tauta of 4:1. No conflict there whatsoever.
Please, my friend, pay attention to the context:Rev 5:5
But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
This is a tell of course. These are Jewish titles of Yeshua HaMashiach.....because prophetic history has switched gears from the times of the gentiles/Church age to the 70th week of Daniel. Which is the time of wrath upon the earth-dwellers and the time of Jacob's trouble.
Jewish titles of Christ are never used in chapters 2 and 3.......
Chapter 4, the Holy Spirit still in throne room, but sent down in 5:6. You are 2000 years off here.
IN CONTEXT, just before Jesus ascended (after sending Mary away) WHAT did Jesus prevail over? (Hint: 3 days and 3 nights before He had died on the cross.)
Your paragraph I turned to orange is pure myth: you are 2000 years off from the timing of these passages.
The 24 elders are mentioned twice in ch 7.......among a number of other groups. This chapter alone quashes a lot of erroneous teachings.
7:11
All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
7:13
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
Right. One of the elders initiates a convo with John.
They are discussing the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (v.9) who the elder tells John are ones "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" v.14 (aka out of the SECOND HALF of the trib years--those ppl are not "the Church which is His body" that they are speaking about).
[vv.15-17 (speaking of same) is parallel Isaiah 49:10, an earthly MK passage]
You are building a tall building (your theory) on a faulty foundation!
John used "after this" or a similar phrase 6 times in Revelation, all when the vision he was watching changed subjects. Therefore this phrase "meta tauta" "after this" is only a transitional phrase with the meaning:
After God finished dictating the messages I was to send to each church, then God called me up to heaven. Was it church age in chapter 2? Yes, around 95 AD. Was it church age in chapter 3? Yes, around 95 AD. AFTER the "after this" when John was called up IT WAS STILL 95 AD! Please don't force human theories upon a scripture - all the scripture to say what IT SAYS. 4:1 is nothing more that JOHN called up in 95 AD. Every posttribber / prewrather knows this. Pretrib left the gate wide open for criticism here.
Now, in 4:2 John begins to see a vision - so the timing can be ANY time. If we study, we see the timing was history to john! Before Jesus ascended to after Jesus ascended.
Please explain why you are thinking future when John is talking about Christ's ascension?
Not a chance! You are rearranging Revelation and your theory will be proven wrong. (Sorry to be so blunt.)
The truth is, John has not yet started the 70th week, MUST LESS arrived at the second half of the week. The beheaded of the days of GT Jesus spoke of only begin showing up in chapter 15. NO WHERE ELSE in Revelation does John show "flashbacks" of "flash-forwards." His narrative is straight through time except for parentheses. Why then imagine this is a flash-forward?
First off, from the Greek, they are coming one by one and continuing to come. So the answer is not "how they got from earth to heaven" as many suppose: it is how they got into this group one by one. They came in by becoming born again.
So what about the mega "great" tribulation. It is speaking of the everyday tribulation that people are in when they get born again. But since they have been coming one by one since 32 AD, God called it mega - (2000 years) - tribulation.
IOW this is the just raptured church seen in heaven PRETRIB.
(and posttrib says we have no verse.)
He just finished "dropping off" the Church which is His body to their destination location ("sealed UNTO the day of REDEMPTION"--"hast redeemed US" is what the 24 elders say here, in 5:9.
[see also 1:5-6 "US... US"]). Not that all of His tasks are complete at this point in the chronology... (many more ppl will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure")[1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 = the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book ("TO SHOW UNTO" / "I WILL SHOW YOU...")]