Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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Right. 
In 1:19, Jesus tells John,
--"Write the things which thou hast seen" (John just described what he "saw" in 1:12-17a, including "IN THE MIDST of the seven candlesticks [/churchES] one like unto the Son of man...");
--"and the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3);
--"and the things which must take place AFTER THESE [things] [meta tauta - PLURAL]" (where "THESE [PLURAL] [things]" could very well refer to both of these LISTED items: [1] "the things which thou hast seen" [the one being described "IN THE MIDST of the candlesticks/churchES" ('where two or more are gathered...' )] *AND* [2] "the things WHICH ARE" [chpts 2-3]); and where 4:1 commences the "AFTER THESE THINGS [meta tauta]" part... (aka the "future" aspects of the Book)
In 1:19, Jesus tells John,
--"Write the things which thou hast seen" (John just described what he "saw" in 1:12-17a, including "IN THE MIDST of the seven candlesticks [/churchES] one like unto the Son of man...");
--"and the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3);
--"and the things which must take place AFTER THESE [things] [meta tauta - PLURAL]" (where "THESE [PLURAL] [things]" could very well refer to both of these LISTED items: [1] "the things which thou hast seen" [the one being described "IN THE MIDST of the candlesticks/churchES" ('where two or more are gathered...'
)] *AND* [2] "the things WHICH ARE" [chpts 2-3]); and where 4:1 commences the "AFTER THESE THINGS [meta tauta]" part... (aka the "future" aspects of the Book)-
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Please, my friend, PLEASE don't become like those that see "sun" and "moon" in two different passages about two different events and imagine they are speaking of the same thing.
First, there is no message being preached in Rev. 7:9. It is describing the group.
Yes, the time frame for the sealing is the same as the great crowd. I have explained that. God MUST see both these events accomplished before He can START the 70th week at the 7th seal.
1: He must see the 144,000 seals for their protection.
2: He must see the church safely in heaven before His wrath starts on earth.
IN THE VISION this is accomplished so God shows John the start of the week with the 7th seal opened.
Here is where you miss it. God and John have not yet started the week! See how an error at the first seal throws everything else off? The week does not start until the 7th seal. Your first paragraph is mostly myth. Theory being imposed on a scripture that really does not say what you imagine it does. I will agree, the "gospel of the Kingdom" is indeed part of the "everlasting gospel" but it is different from Paul's gospel. We agree in one small point!
Sorry, but your second paragraph seems to be mostly mistical. Why not just follow and believe John? BOTH the marraige AND the supper will take place in heaven before we return to earth.
Wow! You guessed SO WRONG! TIME passes in Revelation, but WHERE is most of the church age? It is hidden at the 5th seal. They are told that judgment cannot start until the final martyr (church age martyr) is killed.
There, my friend, is most of the church age. All in one seal. Judgment then starts at the NEXT seal, seal 6. That is the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath. (but the first event of His wrath may be the first trumpet)
The point is, chapter 7 TIMING is AFTER the Day of the Lord has started (IN OUR FUTURE) but BEFORE the 7th seal starts the 70th week.
First, there is no message being preached in Rev. 7:9. It is describing the group.
Yes, the time frame for the sealing is the same as the great crowd. I have explained that. God MUST see both these events accomplished before He can START the 70th week at the 7th seal.
1: He must see the 144,000 seals for their protection.
2: He must see the church safely in heaven before His wrath starts on earth.
IN THE VISION this is accomplished so God shows John the start of the week with the 7th seal opened.
Here is where you miss it. God and John have not yet started the week! See how an error at the first seal throws everything else off? The week does not start until the 7th seal. Your first paragraph is mostly myth. Theory being imposed on a scripture that really does not say what you imagine it does. I will agree, the "gospel of the Kingdom" is indeed part of the "everlasting gospel" but it is different from Paul's gospel.
We agree in one small point!Sorry, but your second paragraph seems to be mostly mistical. Why not just follow and believe John? BOTH the marraige AND the supper will take place in heaven before we return to earth.
Wow! You guessed SO WRONG! TIME passes in Revelation, but WHERE is most of the church age? It is hidden at the 5th seal. They are told that judgment cannot start until the final martyr (church age martyr) is killed.
There, my friend, is most of the church age. All in one seal. Judgment then starts at the NEXT seal, seal 6. That is the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath. (but the first event of His wrath may be the first trumpet)
The point is, chapter 7 TIMING is AFTER the Day of the Lord has started (IN OUR FUTURE) but BEFORE the 7th seal starts the 70th week.
It would be nice if all posters had this attitude. I was taught from my early youth in pretribulational rapture. But when I was challenged to consider what verses clearly taught this (none do) I was open to that fact and through my own study realized the rapture (gathered up) occurs when Christ returns at the Second Advent.
When Christ returns, at that time all the previously dead believers are resurrected and all the living believers who endure to the end are changed (both get the same kind of bodies, just like the one Jesus received at His resurrection). And from several verses in Revelation that tell us about deaths, it figures out to at least half of the world's population die. So that leaves at most half of the world's population, the majority being unbelievers. They are the ones that Jesus will reign with a rod of iron. That also explains how Satan wlll be able to gather the world's population to attack and destroy Israel, where Christ's throne will be. If all mortals who survive the Trib are believers (pretrib view), it is hard to defend the fact that Satan will be able to deceive so many for the battle of Gog and Magog.
What I can't explain is whether any of the motrals who survive the trib will believe during Christ's reign. If so, do they receive resurrection bodies, and when?
My sense from Matt 5 is that Christ's rule with a rod of iron indicates that instead of ruling by the "letter of the Law" Christ will rule by the "spirit of the Law". iow, instead of justice for murder, those who hate will receive punishment, since hatred precedes murder.
Or instead of punishment for adultery, one will be punished for lusting in their heart.
I think this explains how Satan will be able to gather so many for that last battle. People will be highly resentful for being held to the spirit of the Law. iow, no one will be getting away with anything. When that happens, people tend to get resentful, and real quick.
If referring to 1 Cor 51, then yes. Being changed in the twinkling of an eye is a mystery, since we have no reference point for such a thing.
Yes, no mortal will or can "rule with Christ" in His kingdom. This is reserved for believers, who by this time have received their resurrection (or changed) bodies.
I can't wait!!
When Christ returns, at that time all the previously dead believers are resurrected and all the living believers who endure to the end are changed (both get the same kind of bodies, just like the one Jesus received at His resurrection). And from several verses in Revelation that tell us about deaths, it figures out to at least half of the world's population die. So that leaves at most half of the world's population, the majority being unbelievers. They are the ones that Jesus will reign with a rod of iron. That also explains how Satan wlll be able to gather the world's population to attack and destroy Israel, where Christ's throne will be. If all mortals who survive the Trib are believers (pretrib view), it is hard to defend the fact that Satan will be able to deceive so many for the battle of Gog and Magog.
What I can't explain is whether any of the motrals who survive the trib will believe during Christ's reign. If so, do they receive resurrection bodies, and when?
My sense from Matt 5 is that Christ's rule with a rod of iron indicates that instead of ruling by the "letter of the Law" Christ will rule by the "spirit of the Law". iow, instead of justice for murder, those who hate will receive punishment, since hatred precedes murder.
Or instead of punishment for adultery, one will be punished for lusting in their heart.
I think this explains how Satan will be able to gather so many for that last battle. People will be highly resentful for being held to the spirit of the Law. iow, no one will be getting away with anything. When that happens, people tend to get resentful, and real quick.
If referring to 1 Cor 51, then yes. Being changed in the twinkling of an eye is a mystery, since we have no reference point for such a thing.
Yes, no mortal will or can "rule with Christ" in His kingdom. This is reserved for believers, who by this time have received their resurrection (or changed) bodies.
I can't wait!!
I disagree that the 5th Seal martyrs are "church age" martyrs... but the rest ('their fellowservants and their brethren') being referred to are found in Rev20:4b having been BEHEADED under the reign of the "beast" [/AC / man of sin]" esp in the SECOND HALF of the trib yrs
(these "martyrs" under the 5th SEAL are who is being spoken of in Matt24:9... but again, those are ppl IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, and the "ye/you" is a consistent "ye/you" and a "proleptic 'ye/you'" referring to "all those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY," and HERE it is "THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" WAS PROMISED (that is, to BELIEVING ISRAEL... NOT to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," whose "citizenship is IN HEAVENS" instead! Phil3:20... "Set your minds ON THINGS ABOVE, not on the things on the EARTH" Col3:2 [not like the ones in Phil3:19 "who mind EARTHLY THINGS [/ISRAEL'S *EARTHLY* THINGS]" always READING THEMSELVES *INTO* Israel's role / place / assigned tasks / rewards, etc... instead of "correctly apportioning the word of truth" ])
(these "martyrs" under the 5th SEAL are who is being spoken of in Matt24:9... but again, those are ppl IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, and the "ye/you" is a consistent "ye/you" and a "proleptic 'ye/you'" referring to "all those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY," and HERE it is "THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" WAS PROMISED (that is, to BELIEVING ISRAEL... NOT to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," whose "citizenship is IN HEAVENS" instead!
Phil3:20... "Set your minds ON THINGS ABOVE, not on the things on the EARTH" Col3:2 [not like the ones in Phil3:19 "who mind EARTHLY THINGS [/ISRAEL'S *EARTHLY* THINGS]" always READING THEMSELVES *INTO* Israel's role / place / assigned tasks / rewards, etc... instead of "correctly apportioning the word of truth" ])-
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Runningman said:
I'm teachable on the millennial kingdom
Would be nice if you were as well.
Where do you get that he "sees" what you claim to see, or not see?
When have I gone to the OT? Never.
Except you can't defend your man made fantasy of this "spiritualized 1,000 years" and your placement of its end BEFORE Christ comes back at the Second Advent is clearly refuted by Rev 19-20.
I'm teachable on the millennial kingdom
Would be nice if you were as well.
Where do you get that he "sees" what you claim to see, or not see?
When have I gone to the OT? Never.
Millennialism is exactly the same as a pre-trib rapture, the ole bait and switch, hocus-pocus, wave the magicians wand
You "Falsely" suggest Jesus is going to rule the unsaved in your Millennial Kingdom with a (Rod Of Iron), as a King sits upon a throne?
Your claim is "False" Jesus will destroy the wicked in his "Wrath" at his return, as a potter destroy's his vessels with a (Rod Of Iron) as God's words below clearly teach.
Can You Be Taught, The Very Simple Truth Before Your Eyes?
Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Your claim is "False" Jesus will destroy the wicked in his "Wrath" at his return, as a potter destroy's his vessels with a (Rod Of Iron) as God's words below clearly teach.
Can You Be Taught, The Very Simple Truth Before Your Eyes?
Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Prove me wrong then. With real facts, not just what you claim is a fact.
He does apollumi the wicked. That occurs in Rev 20:11-15. He casts them into the eternal lake of fire.
Well, it's obvious you can't be.
I absolutely do believe all these verses. Every verse in the Bible, actually. So what's the problem?
Your problem is spiritualizing in order to make up whatever you want or have been taught.
You can't even defend your spiritualizing. All you can do is make your claims. Many (I'll bet most) scholars strongly disagree with your spiritualizing problem.
otoh, I have the clear and plain words of Scripture, which you blindly reject.
And 2 of the verses you quoted actually SAY that Christ RULES the nations. But you deny any literalness of that.
He does apollumi the wicked. That occurs in Rev 20:11-15. He casts them into the eternal lake of fire.
Well, it's obvious you can't be.
I absolutely do believe all these verses. Every verse in the Bible, actually. So what's the problem?
Your problem is spiritualizing in order to make up whatever you want or have been taught.
You can't even defend your spiritualizing. All you can do is make your claims. Many (I'll bet most) scholars strongly disagree with your spiritualizing problem.
otoh, I have the clear and plain words of Scripture, which you blindly reject.
And 2 of the verses you quoted actually SAY that Christ RULES the nations. But you deny any literalness of that.
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It would be nice if all posters had this attitude. I was taught from my early youth in pretribulational rapture. But when I was challenged to consider what verses clearly taught this (none do) I was open to that fact and through my own study realized the rapture (gathered up) occurs when Christ returns at the Second Advent.
When Christ returns, at that time all the previously dead believers are resurrected and all the living believers who endure to the end are changed (both get the same kind of bodies, just like the one Jesus received at His resurrection). And from several verses in Revelation that tell us about deaths, it figures out to at least half of the world's population die. So that leaves at most half of the world's population, the majority being unbelievers. They are the ones that Jesus will reign with a rod of iron. That also explains how Satan wlll be able to gather the world's population to attack and destroy Israel, where Christ's throne will be. If all mortals who survive the Trib are believers (pretrib view), it is hard to defend the fact that Satan will be able to deceive so many for the battle of Gog and Magog.
What I can't explain is whether any of the motrals who survive the trib will believe during Christ's reign. If so, do they receive resurrection bodies, and when?
My sense from Matt 5 is that Christ's rule with a rod of iron indicates that instead of ruling by the "letter of the Law" Christ will rule by the "spirit of the Law". iow, instead of justice for murder, those who hate will receive punishment, since hatred precedes murder.
Or instead of punishment for adultery, one will be punished for lusting in their heart.
I think this explains how Satan will be able to gather so many for that last battle. People will be highly resentful for being held to the spirit of the Law. iow, no one will be getting away with anything. When that happens, people tend to get resentful, and real quick.
If referring to 1 Cor 51, then yes. Being changed in the twinkling of an eye is a mystery, since we have no reference point for such a thing.
Yes, no mortal will or can "rule with Christ" in His kingdom. This is reserved for believers, who by this time have received their resurrection (or changed) bodies.
I can't wait!!
When Christ returns, at that time all the previously dead believers are resurrected and all the living believers who endure to the end are changed (both get the same kind of bodies, just like the one Jesus received at His resurrection). And from several verses in Revelation that tell us about deaths, it figures out to at least half of the world's population die. So that leaves at most half of the world's population, the majority being unbelievers. They are the ones that Jesus will reign with a rod of iron. That also explains how Satan wlll be able to gather the world's population to attack and destroy Israel, where Christ's throne will be. If all mortals who survive the Trib are believers (pretrib view), it is hard to defend the fact that Satan will be able to deceive so many for the battle of Gog and Magog.
What I can't explain is whether any of the motrals who survive the trib will believe during Christ's reign. If so, do they receive resurrection bodies, and when?
My sense from Matt 5 is that Christ's rule with a rod of iron indicates that instead of ruling by the "letter of the Law" Christ will rule by the "spirit of the Law". iow, instead of justice for murder, those who hate will receive punishment, since hatred precedes murder.
Or instead of punishment for adultery, one will be punished for lusting in their heart.
I think this explains how Satan will be able to gather so many for that last battle. People will be highly resentful for being held to the spirit of the Law. iow, no one will be getting away with anything. When that happens, people tend to get resentful, and real quick.
If referring to 1 Cor 51, then yes. Being changed in the twinkling of an eye is a mystery, since we have no reference point for such a thing.
Yes, no mortal will or can "rule with Christ" in His kingdom. This is reserved for believers, who by this time have received their resurrection (or changed) bodies.
I can't wait!!
Whatever the MK is, I don't think it will be an entirely righteous world. As you pointed out, there remains the potential for war and violence.
The battle of Gog and Magog isn't much of a battle. To me it reads more like a bloodbath, a no contest slaughter that's ended before it begins in a span of just a few verses. Imagine an army attempting to go toe to toe with the Creator of the universe. As expected, God wipes out the entire massive army with fire from heaven:
Revelation 20:7-9
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
I would say the MK is not the new heaven and new earth due to their being wicked individuals still present. The new heaven and new earth will be creation restored to righteousness:
2 Peter 3:13
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
I am also open to the battle of Gog and Magog being a parallel teaching to the battle of Armageddon. After all, we must reconcile how the return of Christ is like the flood in the days of Noah where the wicked are destroyed. So where do the people from the battle of Gog and Magog come from?
The temptation to spiritualize the MK or call it an alternative parallel teaching is normally the result of this discussion. It's a difficult concept to mesh with scripture. I think it's ok to not know, we can wait and see and trust God will make it all good.
Be sure to read the entire context of Psalm 2 (not merely v.9 you quoted apart from its context).
Sure, only the RIGHTEOUS will ENTER that age (the one coming, that Jesus spoke of, and what we call the MK age)... but this "He SHALL RULE / SHEPHERD [G4165 - poimanei] them [/the nations]" (*future tense*) is being said even at the Rev19:15b point in time, so *future* to THAT, even (just as other passages also show the same chronology).
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/19-15.htm
Sure, only the RIGHTEOUS will ENTER that age (the one coming, that Jesus spoke of, and what we call the MK age)... but this "He SHALL RULE / SHEPHERD [G4165 - poimanei] them [/the nations]" (*future tense*) is being said even at the Rev19:15b point in time, so *future* to THAT, even (just as other passages also show the same chronology).
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/19-15.htm
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Right.
In 1:19, Jesus tells John,
--"Write the things which thou hast seen" (John just described what he "saw" in 1:12-17a, including "IN THE MIDST of the seven candlesticks [/churchES] one like unto the Son of man...");
--"and the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3);
--"and the things which must take place AFTER THESE [things] [meta tauta - PLURAL]" (where "THESE [PLURAL] [things]" could very well refer to both of these LISTED items: [1] "the things which thou hast seen" [the one being described "IN THE MIDST of the candlesticks/churchES" ('where two or more are gathered...' )] *AND* [2] "the things WHICH ARE" [chpts 2-3]); and where 4:1 commences the "AFTER THESE THINGS [meta tauta]" part... (aka the "future" aspects of the Book)
In 1:19, Jesus tells John,
--"Write the things which thou hast seen" (John just described what he "saw" in 1:12-17a, including "IN THE MIDST of the seven candlesticks [/churchES] one like unto the Son of man...");
--"and the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3);
--"and the things which must take place AFTER THESE [things] [meta tauta - PLURAL]" (where "THESE [PLURAL] [things]" could very well refer to both of these LISTED items: [1] "the things which thou hast seen" [the one being described "IN THE MIDST of the candlesticks/churchES" ('where two or more are gathered...'
)] *AND* [2] "the things WHICH ARE" [chpts 2-3]); and where 4:1 commences the "AFTER THESE THINGS [meta tauta]" part... (aka the "future" aspects of the Book)
Your answer on "which are" reflects your preconceptions and limits your scope.
That was a slick "slight of hand." I wonder if anyone caught it? What the verse really said:
"the things which shall be hereafter; " You took part of another verse from another chapter and substituted - as if hereafter really meant "after these [things]. "
Let's get one thing straight before we go any farther:
Was John in "the church age?" Answer: He certainly was, but in the beginning.
WHO was caught up in 4:1? Answer: John was caught up.
Is Rev. 4:1 - John being caught up - in the church age? Answer: certainly it was.
Was John still alive at the end of Rev. 22? Answer: Certainly He was: He wrote the book.
Therefore it is nothing more than nonsense to imagine the church age was over just before the two words, "after this." John did NOT write, "after the church age" but it seems 98% of the evangelical church world reads it that way. The actual event of John being caught up probably happened around 95 AD - near the beginning of the church age. We are still in the church age today.
Therefore, every time such a thing is mentioned - that the church age ended when John finished the message to the churches - if I see it - I will again call it what it is: nonsense or myth. The truth is, the church age is ONGOING in Revelation up to and including the 5th seal.
Where you missed it: All John is saying is, "after I finished writing to the churches what God dictated to me, God called me up to heaven. IOW this phrase is related to John and the vision John saw, not the content's of the vision.
I am trying to save you the embarrassment when Jesus asks you, "Why did you not believe John? Why did you think I was talking 70th week when I was still in the church age?
4:1 is CLEARLY John caught up, around 95 AD so we could have this book to read, but you are blinded by your preconceptions. I understand, preconceived glasses can be very thick, but they can be removed!
Your teaching and belief is contrary to scripture, you have believers being resurrected in glorified bodies, as human mortals continue to live on earth, dying in physical death?
Gods word clearly teaches the believers are resurrected on (The Last Day)
John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Gods word clearly teaches the believers are resurrected on (The Last Day)
John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I don't think it is "potential". It's real.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
The red words are WHEN Christ destroys the enemy. At the battle of Gog and Magog.
I won't argue. It sure will be. However, v.8 says Satan gathers them "for battle". I'll go with that.
Correct! Absolutely not. The NHNE won't occur until after the GWT judgment of Rev 20:11-15. The NHNE occurs at the beginning of Rev 21. And only believers will be on the NE.
Agreed!
I don't see the 2 battles as being the same, if that is what you are suggesting. The BofA occurs at the end of the Tribulation. The BoGaM occurs at the end of the Millennial reign, after Satan has been loosened for a short season.
So, the people are the "deceived nations" from v.8, who survived the Tribulation and have been ruled by Christ with a rod of iron.
From Matt 5 we learn that Christ will hold people accountable by the spirit of the Law, not the letter of the Law. This will create a whole lot of resentment among all these unbelievers, which lasts for 1,000 years. That's a long time for resentment to build up.
We sure will have to wait and see what actually occurs. But I don't see how one can defend spiritualizing Rev 20:1-6 or any part of ch 20. It's all quite literal and logical to me.
You openly state there will be a future Millennial Kingdom on earth, with mortal wicked humans present?
By all means, please show me where this Literal Kingdom on this earth is found, with mortal humans present for 1,000 years, waiting
Jesus Is Gonna Redeem The Earth, By (Fire)!
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.
This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
By all means, please show me where this Literal Kingdom on this earth is found, with mortal humans present for 1,000 years, waiting
Jesus Is Gonna Redeem The Earth, By (Fire)!
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.
This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
I have a suggestion: why not just read Rev. 20 as if it was literal and true? It is, my friend!
Perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?
1.) No Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) No Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) No Physical Mortal Humans?
The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)
Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?
100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)
2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
You can't prove my belief is contrary to Scripture. You can't even defend all your spiritualizing fantasy.
The human mortals are the ones who have survived the Trib. Do you think every unbeliever was destroyed by the end of the Trib? Why?
This is what the Bible says about how many will die in the Trib:
Rev 6:8 - I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 9:18 - A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
Yes, there will be deaths from other plagues, but none indicate such huge numbers.
So, do the math and you will come up with about HALF of the population dying, plus others from other plagues.
In any case, there will be still a fairly big number of survivors of the Trib. At this time, the world population is 7.5 Billion. Half of that is 3.5 B. Huge.
Let's define "the last day". Given all the rest of what has been written, "the last day" easily refers to the last day BEFORE the Millennial Kingdom. Oh, whoops! You have already closed your mind and spiritualized the Millennium, so you won't be able to process this information. Sorry.
Yeppers.
The resurrection and rapture (gathering up) all occur when Christ returns at the end of the Trib. The world as we know it will END when Christ takes the Throne, even though you don't believe it.
I do believe in dispensations, because they define and explain the history of mankind better than any other. And the Millennial Reign is a dispensation in and of itself.
The human mortals are the ones who have survived the Trib. Do you think every unbeliever was destroyed by the end of the Trib? Why?
This is what the Bible says about how many will die in the Trib:
Rev 6:8 - I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 9:18 - A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
Yes, there will be deaths from other plagues, but none indicate such huge numbers.
So, do the math and you will come up with about HALF of the population dying, plus others from other plagues.
In any case, there will be still a fairly big number of survivors of the Trib. At this time, the world population is 7.5 Billion. Half of that is 3.5 B. Huge.
Let's define "the last day". Given all the rest of what has been written, "the last day" easily refers to the last day BEFORE the Millennial Kingdom. Oh, whoops! You have already closed your mind and spiritualized the Millennium, so you won't be able to process this information. Sorry.
Yeppers.
The resurrection and rapture (gathering up) all occur when Christ returns at the end of the Trib. The world as we know it will END when Christ takes the Throne, even though you don't believe it.
I do believe in dispensations, because they define and explain the history of mankind better than any other. And the Millennial Reign is a dispensation in and of itself.
I don't think it is "potential". It's real.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
The red words are WHEN Christ destroys the enemy. At the battle of Gog and Magog.
I won't argue. It sure will be. However, v.8 says Satan gathers them "for battle". I'll go with that.
Correct! Absolutely not. The NHNE won't occur until after the GWT judgment of Rev 20:11-15. The NHNE occurs at the beginning of Rev 21. And only believers will be on the NE.
Agreed!
I don't see the 2 battles as being the same, if that is what you are suggesting. The BofA occurs at the end of the Tribulation. The BoGaM occurs at the end of the Millennial reign, after Satan has been loosened for a short season.
So, the people are the "deceived nations" from v.8, who survived the Tribulation and have been ruled by Christ with a rod of iron.
From Matt 5 we learn that Christ will hold people accountable by the spirit of the Law, not the letter of the Law. This will create a whole lot of resentment among all these unbelievers, which lasts for 1,000 years. That's a long time for resentment to build up.
We sure will have to wait and see what actually occurs. But I don't see how one can defend spiritualizing Rev 20:1-6 or any part of ch 20. It's all quite literal and logical to me.
Revelation 19:19-21
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Those who take the mark of the beast are destined for fire so to me it eliminates the possibility that those in the Battle of Gog and Magog could be mark of the beast recipients from the civilian population (non-militaty):
Revelation 14:9-11
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
So it still leaves me with lingering questions about the MK and where all of these wicked people keep coming from.