Under Law? Under Grace? or both?
- Thread starter BenAvraham
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Beware of misguided teachers of the law who teach "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9) 
From several versions of the Word here below is what I have always found contentment with in describing our Father's grace towards all who believe Him. It is credited to David, the King, from Psalm 32
Psalms 32:2
(ABP+) Blessed be G3107 the manG435 to whomG3739 in no wayG3766.2 the LORD should imputeG3049 G2962 sin,G266 norG3761 isG1510.2.3 [2inG1722 G3588 3his mouthG4750 G1473 1treachery].G1388
(ASV) Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile.
(Brenton) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, and whose mouth there is no guile.
(CEV) You bless them by saying, "You told me your sins, without trying to hide them, and now I forgive you."
(French LS) Heureux l'homme à qui l'Éternel n'impute pas d'iniquité, Et dans l'esprit duquel il n'y a point de fraude!
(French OB) Heureux l'homme à qui l'Éternel n'impute pas l'iniquité, et dans l'esprit duquel il n'y a point de fraude!
(German EB) Glückselig der Mensch, dem Jahwe die Ungerechtigkeit nicht zurechnet, und in dessen Geist kein Trug ist!
(Hebrew OT) אשׁרי אדם לא יחשׁב יהוה לו עון ואין ברוחו רמיה׃
(ISV) How blessed is the person against whom the LORD does not charge iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
(Italian GD) Beato l'uomo a cui il Signore non imputa iniquità, E nel cui spirito non vi è frode alcuna!
(JPS) Happy is the man unto whom the LORD counteth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(KJV) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(KJV+) BlessedH835 is the manH120 unto whom the LORDH3068 imputethH2803 notH3808 iniquity,H5771 and in whose spiritH7307 there is noH369 guile.H7423
(KJV-1611) Blessed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquitie: and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(KJVA) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(MKJV) Blessed is the man to whom Jehovah does not charge iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(Spanish RV) Bienaventurado el hombre á quien no imputa Jehová la iniquidad, y en cuyo espíritu no hay superchería.
(Spanish RV+) BienaventuradoH835 el hombreH120 á quien noH3808 imputa JehováH3068 la iniquidadH5771, y en cuyo espírituH7307 noH369 hay supercheríaH7423.
Psalms 32:2
(ABP+) Blessed be G3107 the manG435 to whomG3739 in no wayG3766.2 the LORD should imputeG3049 G2962 sin,G266 norG3761 isG1510.2.3 [2inG1722 G3588 3his mouthG4750 G1473 1treachery].G1388
(ASV) Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile.
(Brenton) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, and whose mouth there is no guile.
(CEV) You bless them by saying, "You told me your sins, without trying to hide them, and now I forgive you."
(French LS) Heureux l'homme à qui l'Éternel n'impute pas d'iniquité, Et dans l'esprit duquel il n'y a point de fraude!
(French OB) Heureux l'homme à qui l'Éternel n'impute pas l'iniquité, et dans l'esprit duquel il n'y a point de fraude!
(German EB) Glückselig der Mensch, dem Jahwe die Ungerechtigkeit nicht zurechnet, und in dessen Geist kein Trug ist!
(Hebrew OT) אשׁרי אדם לא יחשׁב יהוה לו עון ואין ברוחו רמיה׃
(ISV) How blessed is the person against whom the LORD does not charge iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
(Italian GD) Beato l'uomo a cui il Signore non imputa iniquità, E nel cui spirito non vi è frode alcuna!
(JPS) Happy is the man unto whom the LORD counteth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(KJV) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(KJV+) BlessedH835 is the manH120 unto whom the LORDH3068 imputethH2803 notH3808 iniquity,H5771 and in whose spiritH7307 there is noH369 guile.H7423
(KJV-1611) Blessed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquitie: and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(KJVA) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(MKJV) Blessed is the man to whom Jehovah does not charge iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(Spanish RV) Bienaventurado el hombre á quien no imputa Jehová la iniquidad, y en cuyo espíritu no hay superchería.
(Spanish RV+) BienaventuradoH835 el hombreH120 á quien noH3808 imputa JehováH3068 la iniquidadH5771, y en cuyo espírituH7307 noH369 hay supercheríaH7423.
Moses wrote down the law as given him on the mount, given by God.
The entire Bible is for all who believe God is and who believe Him
To call any law of the Bible to be that of Moses is absurd. Yes, Moses gave us the law, but it was first given to him.
The Word is to be studied in it entirety, otherwise those of the OT will be stuck in the law, while false brethren of the NT will claim Jesus teaches the law is abolished,.
It is a wicked deed to deny any of God's Word, for that is denying Jesus-Yeshua.
The entire Bible is for all who believe God is and who believe Him
To call any law of the Bible to be that of Moses is absurd. Yes, Moses gave us the law, but it was first given to him.
The Word is to be studied in it entirety, otherwise those of the OT will be stuck in the law, while false brethren of the NT will claim Jesus teaches the law is abolished,.
It is a wicked deed to deny any of God's Word, for that is denying Jesus-Yeshua.
In the beginning was the Word... you know the rest. Jesus-Yeshua is the Word, and He is God.
Jesus-Yeshua cannot be separated from what He, Himself, gave to Moses, however in learning from Him exactly how the law may be utilitarian to those under grace, and how they are NOT abolished according to Yeshua-Jesus, we have no more need to argue the law for He has elaborated on it and perfected all in the Gospel. This is not an invitation to a debate. I know I am saved by grace, and I know that all laws which contain the qualities Jesus-Yeshua teaches must be are ok to obey. Do you thing the Ten Commandments or any of the laws making up love are completed? God is Love, and Love is eternal. God bless you. Allow for not understanding completely the posting of others. This must occur among those being saved.
Jesus-Yeshua cannot be separated from what He, Himself, gave to Moses, however in learning from Him exactly how the law may be utilitarian to those under grace, and how they are NOT abolished according to Yeshua-Jesus, we have no more need to argue the law for He has elaborated on it and perfected all in the Gospel. This is not an invitation to a debate. I know I am saved by grace, and I know that all laws which contain the qualities Jesus-Yeshua teaches must be are ok to obey. Do you thing the Ten Commandments or any of the laws making up love are completed? God is Love, and Love is eternal. God bless you. Allow for not understanding completely the posting of others. This must occur among those being saved.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with Scripture instead of throwing around ignorant attempts at slander.
When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (Luke 2:22)
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” (Luke 24:44)
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:2)
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Romans 13:9
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. (Romans 2:14)
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (Luke 2:22)
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” (Luke 24:44)
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:2)
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Romans 13:9
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. (Romans 2:14)
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
-
1
- Show all
We are not under the law of Moses, but the law of Christ. Here is a statement below from an SDA who promotes “salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works.”
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
-
2
- Show all
Christ FULFILLED the Law of Moses
Think not that I am come to destroy [καταλῦσαι (katalysai) = to destroy or overthrow, annul, abrogate, subvert, or discard] the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil [πληρῶσαι (plērōsai) = to make full, to complete, or make complete in every particular, to consummate] (Matthew 5:17)
What did the Lord Jesus Christ mean when He said that He had come to fulfil the Law?
The Law He was referring to was in the Torah, also called by Him the Law of Moses. So we need to see what there was within the Torah which was fulfilled by Christ, and why the Law of Moses is now NULL AND VOID.
1. Christ fulfilled all the prophecies concerning Himself which were given in the first five books of the Bible.
2. Christ fulfilled all the types and shadows about Himself which were in the Torah.
3. Christ fulfilled the just demands of a holy God that a Man should obey the Law perfectly and live thereby.
4. Christ brought out the inner and spiritual meaning of the Ten Commandments which are necessary for the New Covenant.
5. Christ fulfilled all the sacrifices of the Law within Himself as the Lamb of God. He became the Whole Burnt Offering, the Meal Offering (called the Meat Offering in the KJV), the Peace Offering, the Sin Offering, the Trespass Offering, and all the sacrifices of the Day of Atonement. He also became the Passover Lamb.
6. Christ took the curse of the Law upon Himself by hanging on that cross, thus cancelled out the curse on sinners.
7. Christ brought the entire system of worship contained within the Law to an end. The Levitical priesthood, the temple, the temple sacrifices, the feasts, festivals, and holy days connected with this worship, and all the ceremonial observances which were enjoined on Israel came to an end when the veil in the temple was supernaturally torn from top to bottom on the day He died.
8. Christ ushered in the New Covenant with His death, and ratified it with His shed blood. He also fulfilled the Feast of Passover on that day, the 14th of Nisan in the year AD 30.
9. Christ fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits on the day of His resurrection (the first day of the week, or the morrow after the Sabbath).
10. Christ brought the need for physical circumcision to an end through the necessity of the New Birth, which requires the circumcision of the heart through repentance.
11. Christ brought the promise of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to fulfillment on the day of Pentecost, and thus fulfilled that feast.
12. Christ entered into the heavenly Sanctuary with His own blood, and sprinkled it on the heavenly Mercy Seat. At the same time He became our Great High Priest and Advocate in Heaven, thus opening the way for each one to come directly to the Throne of Grace.
13. Christ distilled all 613 commandments of the Torah into the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love or the Law of Liberty, thus called the Royal Law. Now Love is the fulfilled of the Law for those who have been saved by grace and washed in the blood of the Lamb.
14. The Law of Moses contained the Old Covenant. But the Law of Christ contains the New Covenant, which is infinitely better according to the epistle to the Hebrews. Thus anyone who now reverts to Torah observance is in direct disobedience and rebellion.
Think not that I am come to destroy [καταλῦσαι (katalysai) = to destroy or overthrow, annul, abrogate, subvert, or discard] the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil [πληρῶσαι (plērōsai) = to make full, to complete, or make complete in every particular, to consummate] (Matthew 5:17)
What did the Lord Jesus Christ mean when He said that He had come to fulfil the Law?
The Law He was referring to was in the Torah, also called by Him the Law of Moses. So we need to see what there was within the Torah which was fulfilled by Christ, and why the Law of Moses is now NULL AND VOID.
1. Christ fulfilled all the prophecies concerning Himself which were given in the first five books of the Bible.
2. Christ fulfilled all the types and shadows about Himself which were in the Torah.
3. Christ fulfilled the just demands of a holy God that a Man should obey the Law perfectly and live thereby.
4. Christ brought out the inner and spiritual meaning of the Ten Commandments which are necessary for the New Covenant.
5. Christ fulfilled all the sacrifices of the Law within Himself as the Lamb of God. He became the Whole Burnt Offering, the Meal Offering (called the Meat Offering in the KJV), the Peace Offering, the Sin Offering, the Trespass Offering, and all the sacrifices of the Day of Atonement. He also became the Passover Lamb.
6. Christ took the curse of the Law upon Himself by hanging on that cross, thus cancelled out the curse on sinners.
7. Christ brought the entire system of worship contained within the Law to an end. The Levitical priesthood, the temple, the temple sacrifices, the feasts, festivals, and holy days connected with this worship, and all the ceremonial observances which were enjoined on Israel came to an end when the veil in the temple was supernaturally torn from top to bottom on the day He died.
8. Christ ushered in the New Covenant with His death, and ratified it with His shed blood. He also fulfilled the Feast of Passover on that day, the 14th of Nisan in the year AD 30.
9. Christ fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits on the day of His resurrection (the first day of the week, or the morrow after the Sabbath).
10. Christ brought the need for physical circumcision to an end through the necessity of the New Birth, which requires the circumcision of the heart through repentance.
11. Christ brought the promise of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to fulfillment on the day of Pentecost, and thus fulfilled that feast.
12. Christ entered into the heavenly Sanctuary with His own blood, and sprinkled it on the heavenly Mercy Seat. At the same time He became our Great High Priest and Advocate in Heaven, thus opening the way for each one to come directly to the Throne of Grace.
13. Christ distilled all 613 commandments of the Torah into the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love or the Law of Liberty, thus called the Royal Law. Now Love is the fulfilled of the Law for those who have been saved by grace and washed in the blood of the Lamb.
14. The Law of Moses contained the Old Covenant. But the Law of Christ contains the New Covenant, which is infinitely better according to the epistle to the Hebrews. Thus anyone who now reverts to Torah observance is in direct disobedience and rebellion.
-
1
- Show all
"However, as members of God’s family, we now should “walk in and follow the “Instructions of God” (The Torah) which consists of His commandments, not for salvation purpose but because we ARE SAVED. The commandments, which are 613, are for our education, welfare, and spiritual maturity. "
Lets point out some facts you said this..it is not in His word. One likened it to a train which has come to the end yet some do not want to get off. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. " "For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior]. "
Its not my word. Its not about US it about HIM. How convenient we don't have keep 613 yet fact.. you keep all or you fall in all. For me I never get the idea thought I as a believer in Yeshua/Jesus Christ I must now keep the law. His word makes it clear. I wonder sometimes if some do not fully believe the NT as in Hebrews, Romans etc. Matt-John Christ was still here.. didn't die rise (YES AMEN) yet. What happen after He rose? Before that there was no Church there was no Christian they were still keeping the law... then He died then He ROSE PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS!
Read how God treated them when He set them free.. He met all there needs no matter how much they cried and got upset.. God still did everything for them yet when they get to the MTN..after that something changed Israel says to GOD "All that the LORD has spoken we will do". A truth yet ignorant.
Lets point out some facts you said this..it is not in His word. One likened it to a train which has come to the end yet some do not want to get off. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. " "For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior]. "
Its not my word. Its not about US it about HIM. How convenient we don't have keep 613 yet fact.. you keep all or you fall in all. For me I never get the idea thought I as a believer in Yeshua/Jesus Christ I must now keep the law. His word makes it clear. I wonder sometimes if some do not fully believe the NT as in Hebrews, Romans etc. Matt-John Christ was still here.. didn't die rise (YES AMEN) yet. What happen after He rose? Before that there was no Church there was no Christian they were still keeping the law... then He died then He ROSE PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS!
Read how God treated them when He set them free.. He met all there needs no matter how much they cried and got upset.. God still did everything for them yet when they get to the MTN..after that something changed Israel says to GOD "All that the LORD has spoken we will do". A truth yet ignorant.
When you out and out misrepresent scripture, making assertions not meant by the Lord, how can you have such blatant gall to defy the Lord and call me a liar?
You over and over say scripture is to Israel, not gentiles and that God had to cancel the old testament, it was wrong. That is telling us you don't believe in scripture for you. Then you call me a liar for believing in scripture!!!!!
I don't know how it should be that you feel I have so pulled your tail. You have gunned for me for a long time, saying I may not disagree with you. You are often rude to others as you find reasons they are wrong and seem to glory in that, but I am especially selected to be called a liar. I wonder what you think this gains for you? Your "only Israel" and "God made a mistake so he cancelled it" message, do you think they are worth it?
You over and over say scripture is to Israel, not gentiles and that God had to cancel the old testament, it was wrong. That is telling us you don't believe in scripture for you. Then you call me a liar for believing in scripture!!!!!
I don't know how it should be that you feel I have so pulled your tail. You have gunned for me for a long time, saying I may not disagree with you. You are often rude to others as you find reasons they are wrong and seem to glory in that, but I am especially selected to be called a liar. I wonder what you think this gains for you? Your "only Israel" and "God made a mistake so he cancelled it" message, do you think they are worth it?
You are unable to QUOTE me where I have misrepresented Scripture. I have the "blatant gall" to call you a liar because you made a false accusation about me and did not even begin to support it with evidence.
I say that the Law, not "scripture," was given to Israel.
I have never stated that "God had to cancel the old testament".
No; that is your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my words.
I didn't call you a liar for believing in Scripture; how ridiculous can you be? I called you a liar for lying!
I say that the Law, not "scripture," was given to Israel.
I have never stated that "God had to cancel the old testament".
No; that is your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my words.
I didn't call you a liar for believing in Scripture; how ridiculous can you be? I called you a liar for lying!
-
1
- Show all
When I give you evifdernce you post a sign signifying that you ignore my evidence. Then you make a statement that I don't give you evidence. You do not tell the truth, both in your interpretations of scripture and in your posts. If i repeat something you have stated, you declare you didn't say it. It would be impossible, given your actions, to make peace with such behavior. I am going to put you on ignore as an impossible person to have any dialogue with because you twist anything to make it a fight. Goodbye. I'll let you free to teach blasphemy, the Lord will take care of His word and protect it from you.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
By Moses came the law and death and by our Savior, Jesus-Yeshua, came life.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
None of the above says the law is abolished, however it is now with grace for all who believe. Jesus teaches all how the law should be undefrstood and kept under grace for without mercy a law is no longer. I spaeak only of the laws pertaining to our behavior since our Lord fulfilled the laws of sacrifice, food, priesthoot, etc.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
None of the above says the law is abolished, however it is now with grace for all who believe. Jesus teaches all how the law should be undefrstood and kept under grace for without mercy a law is no longer. I spaeak only of the laws pertaining to our behavior since our Lord fulfilled the laws of sacrifice, food, priesthoot, etc.
The very first sin in the bible was eating of the Fruit of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
The Law is the absolute, and irrefutable, definition of Good and Evil. The carnal mind says "do good and abstain from evil", easy peasy.
The only problem is that Knowledge of good and evil doesn't provide Power to produce that which is good. All that the Knowledge of good and evil gives us is the Knowledge that we CAN'T perform that which is good.
So we come to Christ. To remove that burden from us. To be removed from the curse and to be placed into Gods Grace.
Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The Law is the absolute, and irrefutable, definition of Good and Evil. The carnal mind says "do good and abstain from evil", easy peasy.
The only problem is that Knowledge of good and evil doesn't provide Power to produce that which is good. All that the Knowledge of good and evil gives us is the Knowledge that we CAN'T perform that which is good.
So we come to Christ. To remove that burden from us. To be removed from the curse and to be placed into Gods Grace.
Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
-
1
-
1
- Show all