Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
5,722
113
And give us complete victory over sin.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
Is English your first language? Those verses plainly tell us Who led the Israelites out of Egypt and to the Promised Land: the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ.

Want another example of how the New Testament confirms it was Christ in the OT?

The God of the OT said in Psalms 78:1-2 KJV:
"Give ear, O my people, [to] My law: incline your ears to the words of My mouth.
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:"

Matthew 13:34-35 KJV:
All these things SPAKE JESUS unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
All the old testament is a shadow of the kingdom and of Christ, Christ fulfilled all the old testament. It is important to learn the law that kills us, that Christ saves us from in both testaments. What has that to do with that it was God (Christ, the Father and the Holy Ghost) whose finger wrote the law in stone, the law that Christ fulfilled by saving us so it does not kill?
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
You falsely suggest the 10 commandments have been removed from the Christian's observance

Adultery is found as common place in the world, as people everywhere are married to others while their awful spouses live (Adultery), including what is called the Church
2. Corinthians ch.3.

For the written code kills but the Spirit giveth life.

Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, [the 10 commandments] came with such splendour that the Israelites could not look upon the face of Moses because of the brightness, fading though it was.

will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour? for if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, fading as this was, will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour?

For if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendour.

Indeed in this case what once had splendour has come to have no splendour at all because of the splendour that surpasses it. For if what faded away came with splendour what is permanent must have much more splendour.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
im Having a hard time understanding what your position is honestly

what are you advocating ? And what are you claiming others have wrong ?

Can you take a moment to explain your position
Oh, sorry. You said the Holy Father - which I assume you mean to be the First Person in the Godhead - gave the Ten Commandments.

I showed that the Bible actually says that it was Jesus in the OT Who gave the Ten Commandments at Sinai.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
//the choice not to climb out the window// Firstly . In heaven can you jump out back to earth? secondly, I'm not a Calvinist, so I believe we choose . Having free will has nothing to do with staying saved . The analogy makes no sense . Noah would have committed suicide by 'jumping 'out the window ( assuming he could) Why would he have committed suicide ? But anyway ,its a bad analogy. The equivalent would be asking God directly ,purposely to un seal un regenerate us and to throw us in hell . Now your going to say " yes that's what they indirectly are doing when they sin intentionally and such . But thats not the same as Noah Jumping out the window of the Ark ,so the anology doesn't work .
I think you're getting caught up in semantics. Generally speaking, Noah jumping from the Ark of Safety would result in the same fate as when one jumps from the Ark of Salvation: suffering eternal loss.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
2. Corinthians ch.3.

For the written code kills but the Spirit giveth life.

Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, [the 10 commandments] came with such splendour that the Israelites could not look upon the face of Moses because of the brightness, fading though it was.

will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour? for if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, fading as this was, will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour?

For if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendour.

Indeed in this case what once had splendour has come to have no splendour at all because of the splendour that surpasses it. For if what faded away came with splendour what is permanent must have much more splendour.
You Antinomianists are so screwed up in your thinking.

When Paul says "the letter killeth", he doesn't mean "Christians will die if they try to keep the commandments" because Paul, Jesus, Peter, James, John, Luke and everyone else all say the Christian is to be obedient to God's Law!

Paul means, "the letter killeth him who tries to obtain salvation by keeping the law."

There's no other way to understand this verse - yet you OSAS folks are willing to introduce massive Scriptural contradiction into the mix so that you can make the verse teach Antinomianism SMH
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
That's not how a person is saved today . In order for there to be a sensible discussion ,where your points would at least try to hit the mark ,you need to understand how salvation works today , the components of it ,how its appropriated and the prerequisite for it . Nothing you've said so far is even close . Your adding what you think eternal security is to what you think salvation is . You probably think your making great points ,but your way off base . Take the time to understand the position ,because your firing missiles at the wrong thing.
Sorry, but salvation has NEVER CHANGED. The blood of bulls and goats never tooka away sin.

The OT folks were saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah and evidenced that faith by obeying the law.

Now NT folks are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah Who came, and we evidence that faith the same way.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
circumcision is greater than sabbath.

the covenant with Abraham is greater than the covenant at Sinai - one remains and the other is obsolete.
circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic covenant; sabbath of the Mosaic.


a child is circumcised on the 8th day if it falls on a 7th.
the priests must work in the temple, but no one uncircumcised could even enter
Hey, there Bonesman, nice to see you. Y'know I'm still waiting for you to show just one verse where the wicked are said to possess "agape"...not "agapeo" which not the same.

Matthew 24:12-13 KJV is speaking about converted saints who allow their agape to grow cold and dead through abounding iniquity, which renders them unable to endure to the end and be saved...there's no understanding this any other way, unless you can point to a verse where the wicked are said to possess "agape".

Yes, let's turn the Christian world upside down and argue the wicked can obtain "agape" from God so that you can stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the truth - that Jesus was talking about SAINTS failing to endure to the end and be saved :rolleyes:
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
If you need commandments to keep you from committing adultery and murder you are in big trouble. true salvation is to be saved from sin .... how can we still be living in it then?
Once again, your theology is upside down...the only purpose of the commandments is to show us our sin so that we can go to Jesus for cleansing and victory.

James says the law is a mirror into which we gaze to see the dirt on our face - the job of the mirror ain't to clean anything - that what the cleansing Word Jesus is for.

You OSAS Antinomianists for some reason think that the solution to a dirty face in the mirror is to break the flippin mirror.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
question it seems you are only concerned about the 4th Commandment why?
Several reasons:


It's the one commandment that tells us to "rest"but for some reason it gets everyone worked up over it.

It's the only one that begins with the word "Remember" that Christians claim we can forget.

It's a commandment and God says the church that is on Earth just before Jesus comes is going to be keeping.

It has to do with the fulfillment of end times prophecy - the Little Horn aka Beast aka Antichrist aka Man of Sin is said "will think to change the times and laws" and teach "for doctrines the commandments of men".

It's a commandment which, if a man keep it, proves he genuinely knows Christ, unlike those who do not keep the commandments which are "liars and the truth is not in him".

It's a commandment that the observance of which will continue for all eternity.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
All the old testament is a shadow of the kingdom and of Christ, Christ fulfilled all the old testament. It is important to learn the law that kills us, that Christ saves us from in both testaments. What has that to do with that it was God (Christ, the Father and the Holy Ghost) whose finger wrote the law in stone, the law that Christ fulfilled by saving us so it does not kill?
Jesus told a reluctant John the Baptist to baptize Him anyway so as to "fulfill all righteousness".

So, Jesus fulfilled "all righteousness" by getting baptized, which means we can forget about living "righteous", right?

That's not what Titus 2:12 KJV says.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
Several reasons:


It's a commandment and God says the church that is on Earth just before Jesus comes is going to be keeping.

It has to do with the fulfillment of end times prophecy - the Little Horn aka Beast aka Antichrist aka Man of Sin is said "will think to change the times and laws" and teach "for doctrines the commandments of men".
It is amazing to me that you arrived at the keeping of the Sabbath from the scripture above, which says no such thing!

Attempting to bring Christians under the law is the work of Satan, plain and simple!

Keeping the law as a requirement for salvation, is salvation by works. There is no direct command from the Lord or the apostles to keep the Sabbath or to abstain from certain foods, or anything else. There are no rebukes from the Lord in the letters to the seven churches regarding not keeping the Sabbath.

Why do you continue to ignore the scriptures that I provide that, unlike the one you provided above, which address the issue directly, such as the following:

"Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ."

Paul wrote the above because of those who were still trying live according to the law and who would confront believers who had freedom in Christ, who understood that they were no longer under the old covenant. Notice in the verse that the food law, a Sabbath (meaning any and all Sabbaths).

Anyone who keeps the Sabbath or anything else as a means of salvation, will not inherit the kingdom of God. And that because the person who does so is attempting to take credit in part for salvation, but their own works. It takes their eyes of the finished work of Christ and puts it on their efforts.

Jesus doesn't need any help in fulfilling the law, as He's already satisfied it fully and that on behalf of every believer. And NO not being under the law does not mean that we have freedom to break it. We are under a new covenant, where we follow Christ and are led by the Spirit. When we as believer sin regardless of what it is, we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. And then you continue in the process of going from faith to faith and being transformed into the Lord's image, which is the fruit of the Spirit. I posted the following in a previous post. Read it and believe it!

"One person regards one day as better [or more important] than another, while another regards every day [the same as any other]. Let everyone be fully convinced (assured, satisfied) in his own mind."

Meaning that, if one person wants to observe a day as special to the Lord, then he can do that. If another considers everyday alike, then he can do that, I happen to be one of those who worships the Lord every day, meditating upon God and His word and not just on a specific day. But when you teach to others that the Sabbath must be kept, then it becomes a requirement for salvation.

I don't know how we are going to make this any clearer to you. Stop trying to bring believers back under the law. We are not going to trade salvation by grace through faith, for the keeping of the Law which Jesus fulfilled. Why can't you understand the full meaning of the following:

==============================================================================
But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
=============================================================================

So, the claim by the Pharisee group is that the Gentile believers must be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses, which would include everything written in the law, including the keeping of Sabbaths, food laws and any other law. And what was the answer? Why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples (Gentile believers) a yoke (the law) that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? The council just wrote a letter to the Gentile churches to abstain from eating blood and abstaining from sexual immorality and that was it! And that was in answer to the question of being circumcised and obeying the law of Moses.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
I think you're getting caught up in semantics. Generally speaking, Noah jumping from the Ark of Safety would result in the same fate as when one jumps from the Ark of Salvation: suffering eternal loss.
No your using inaccurate analogies that don't represent the thing your arguing. Why don't you stick to an accurate representation?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
I think you're getting caught up in semantics. Generally speaking, Noah jumping from the Ark of Safety would result in the same fate as when one jumps from the Ark of Salvation: suffering eternal loss.
No . And your just restating the same faulty analogy even stronger . Its not the same. This would be like Noah having a metal breakdown/ psychotic episode ,then commits suicide . The closest you could get to this is reality would be Christians praying to God ,begging him to send them into the lake of fire. Even then ,its not the same.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Sorry, but salvation has NEVER CHANGED. The blood of bulls and goats never tooka away sin.

The OT folks were saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah and evidenced that faith by obeying the law.

Now NT folks are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah Who came, and we evidence that faith the same way.
There you go . Now we see the issue . This is where you are in error . No the blood of Goats and bulls did not , but Jesus did . After the cross redemption and remission is available by Faith, not Faith + the works of the law . This is the difference . What your teaching is Jesus life, death, burial and resurrection, plus the giving of the Holy spirit , made no difference.
.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
2. Corinthians ch.3.

For the written code kills but the Spirit giveth life.

Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, [the 10 commandments] came with such splendour that the Israelites could not look upon the face of Moses because of the brightness, fading though it was.

will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour? for if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, fading as this was, will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour?

For if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendour.

Indeed in this case what once had splendour has come to have no splendour at all because of the splendour that surpasses it. For if what faded away came with splendour what is permanent must have much more splendour.
Is all the scripture below is teaching, is that the letter of the laws of "Moses" have been abolished, the "Penalties" for breaking the 10 commandments

The 10 Commandments are written by the very finger of God, and have never been abolished or replaced

Throughout the New Testament, you see Jesus Christ teaching, and upholding them (Fact)

2 Corinthians 3:6-7KJV
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
5,722
113
Oh, sorry. You said the Holy Father - which I assume you mean to be the First Person in the Godhead - gave the Ten Commandments.

I showed that the Bible actually says that it was Jesus in the OT Who gave the Ten Commandments at Sinai.
honestly I think you have only shown that to yourself while you have refused to read what others have said that would have imparted some better clarity for you in the future regarding the Old Testament law and the gospel.

Tour totally missing the unveiling of the eternal covenant because you are like the Israelites in Jesus day you are fixed on a faded covenant that was never meant to save anyone or impart righteousness

there is a veil over Moses testament the Old Testament law the whole entire testament from genesis forward has a veil of sin over it . We’re looking through mans sin at God when we see that law it’s specifically for sinners who won’t repent

it’s only when we turn to Christ and his words that the veil is lifted and we can see the true God in person and hear his teachings for salvation of all who believe

the law of Sinai is not Gods law ot is born because of our sin Gods law is before that and after it but the law is not faith and cannot save
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Sorry, but salvation has NEVER CHANGED. The blood of bulls and goats never tooka away sin.

The OT folks were saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah and evidenced that faith by obeying the law.

Now NT folks are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah Who came, and we evidence that faith the same way.
//expand...Sorry, but salvation has NEVER CHANGED. The blood of bulls and goats never tooka away sin//
You do see the contradiction here surely ? Because that's one of the precise reasons it has changed .
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
Is all the scripture below is teaching, is that the letter of the laws of "Moses" have been abolished, the "Penalties" for breaking the 10 commandments

The 10 Commandments are written by the very finger of God, and have never been abolished or replaced

Throughout the New Testament, you see Jesus Christ teaching, and upholding them (Fact)

2 Corinthians 3:6-7KJV
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
... that's right NOT of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
Once again, your theology is upside down...the only purpose of the commandments is to show us our sin so that we can go to Jesus for cleansing and victory.

James says the law is a mirror into which we gaze to see the dirt on our face - the job of the mirror ain't to clean anything - that what the cleansing Word Jesus is for.

You OSAS Antinomianists for some reason think that the solution to a dirty face in the mirror is to break the flippin mirror.
Yes yes

We go to Jesus for cleansing and victory .. did He cleanse you then? did He gi' you the victory? if you now go back to the law you are in UNBELIEF. It PROVES you do not believe Jesus cleansed you, that He won the victory.

You are denying the cross as efficacious, you are holding it up to shame and making a mock of it. "look ... you are saying ... I went to Jesus to be saved but He failed"

The law did not save you but you are gone back to the law oh foolish Galatian.