WHICH IS MOST IMPORTANT FOR A CHRISTIAN TO FOLLOW?
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Love you Brother, but I disagree with this statement.
While I can see what you believe from the Scripture, what I see in "practice" among the Churches of the World, there is a huge difference.
While everyone has zeroed in on water baptism only, in the OP, I stated three examples, and there are possibly other examples. There is a difference between obeying the instructions of Jesus and following the actions of the Apostles.
For a clear example of why this is important to understand, consider how Paul chastised Peter. Consider the argumentative climate in the Church at Jerusalem. Just two examples to consider when wondering if this is important to see and understand.
IN THE END...............I simply asked which way you were water baptized/which way your Church water baptizes. Apparently, not all understood this.
The simplistic answer to the Poll would have been Choice #1, or #2, or one of the others.
New Believers who have been water baptized surely remember what was spoken by the person baptizing them, right? I am not suggesting that one baptism becomes VOID if it differs from the other.
I am simply asking which should we use? The instructions of Jesus, or not?
Jesus instructed us on Communion. Can we change this up as we please? Jesus gave us a Prayer. Can we change up the words if it pleases us?
While I can see what you believe from the Scripture, what I see in "practice" among the Churches of the World, there is a huge difference.
While everyone has zeroed in on water baptism only, in the OP, I stated three examples, and there are possibly other examples. There is a difference between obeying the instructions of Jesus and following the actions of the Apostles.
For a clear example of why this is important to understand, consider how Paul chastised Peter. Consider the argumentative climate in the Church at Jerusalem. Just two examples to consider when wondering if this is important to see and understand.
IN THE END...............I simply asked which way you were water baptized/which way your Church water baptizes. Apparently, not all understood this.
The simplistic answer to the Poll would have been Choice #1, or #2, or one of the others.
New Believers who have been water baptized surely remember what was spoken by the person baptizing them, right? I am not suggesting that one baptism becomes VOID if it differs from the other.
I am simply asking which should we use? The instructions of Jesus, or not?
Jesus instructed us on Communion. Can we change this up as we please? Jesus gave us a Prayer. Can we change up the words if it pleases us?
Ahh..... Now I am understanding where you are coming from. You do not believe people should be water baptized. I DO NOT BELIEVE WATER BAPTISM is necessary for SALVATION! However, what water baptism is:
1) It is a witness to the Church that we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
2) It is a witness to the World that we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
The "one Baptism", the baptism of the Holy Ghost is not visible to the human eye, and this is why water baptism is important. As well, Jesus was water baptized, and instructed us to be water baptized, and that is why water baptism is the FIRST ACT OF OBEDIENCE to the Commandments of Jesus to new Believers.
1) It is a witness to the Church that we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
2) It is a witness to the World that we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
The "one Baptism", the baptism of the Holy Ghost is not visible to the human eye, and this is why water baptism is important. As well, Jesus was water baptized, and instructed us to be water baptized, and that is why water baptism is the FIRST ACT OF OBEDIENCE to the Commandments of Jesus to new Believers.
By churches of the world I suppose that would be the denominations. They do not agree or they would not have distinct titles and distinct doctrines. Therefore I can only go with the Word and how understanding has been given me. I respect your understanding but I can only believe what I believe based on the gift of faith given me by our Father.
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I do understand what you are saying
(Re. long hair......Pauls teaching about women and men and hair length....showing how Paul did not consider the mighty Lion...just an example)
Not sure you understand the difference between the Perfection of the Word of God and the perfection of the Apostles. While Gods Word is surely perfect, the Apostles were not perfect, and Paul speaks of this more than once.
The "PERFECT" of Gods Word is that it "perfectly" records the words/actions of the Apostles. The good, the bad, the ugly (so to speak) This is true throughout the Word of God.
If you truly believe there is no difference between the two statements used in water baptism by various Churches today, then I can not help you.
One: Is the instruction of Jesus the Christ to the Apostles.
One: Is the way the Apostles are recorded (in their words) did.
There have been numerous Threads here on CC concerning this, and there has arose a great hue and cry when I or others say we should water baptize new Believers as Jesus instructed, by saying : In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
You MAY be right about the possible reference to the Holy Trinity in the instruction of Jesus, but this can only be a problem for those that deny the Holy Trinity. Maybe that is the reason for the numerous disputations about all of this. There IS A DIFFERENCE. To say otherwise simply ignores what is written in RED and what is written in black...........
(Re. long hair......Pauls teaching about women and men and hair length....showing how Paul did not consider the mighty Lion...just an example)
Not sure you understand the difference between the Perfection of the Word of God and the perfection of the Apostles. While Gods Word is surely perfect, the Apostles were not perfect, and Paul speaks of this more than once.
The "PERFECT" of Gods Word is that it "perfectly" records the words/actions of the Apostles. The good, the bad, the ugly (so to speak) This is true throughout the Word of God.
If you truly believe there is no difference between the two statements used in water baptism by various Churches today, then I can not help you.
One: Is the instruction of Jesus the Christ to the Apostles.
One: Is the way the Apostles are recorded (in their words) did.
There have been numerous Threads here on CC concerning this, and there has arose a great hue and cry when I or others say we should water baptize new Believers as Jesus instructed, by saying : In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
You MAY be right about the possible reference to the Holy Trinity in the instruction of Jesus, but this can only be a problem for those that deny the Holy Trinity. Maybe that is the reason for the numerous disputations about all of this. There IS A DIFFERENCE. To say otherwise simply ignores what is written in RED and what is written in black...........
The sinful actions of the Apostles were recorded but just as you said God's Word is perfect. What we are told is exactly what God wanted us to know. If there are in your mind two different accounts of baptism then for perfection it is not either or, one or the other, but one plus one. You use the example of both molded into one. It is this simple.
Where JESUS said baptize In the name of the FATHER ,SON and HOLY GHOST and where Peter said baptize In the name of JESUS.
Matthew 28:19
King James Version
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and ofthe Holy Ghost
+++
Acts 2:38
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Extra scripture for clarification
Matthew 3:11
King James Version
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 28:19
King James Version
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and ofthe Holy Ghost
+++
Acts 2:38
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Extra scripture for clarification
Matthew 3:11
King James Version
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
they all taught the gospel the apostles never parted from the gospel those four books we have in the Bible were written by them and those appointed like Luke and mark.
the apostles role is this here when they each received the spirit and thier calling as one of the twelve appointed witnesses this was going to be thier role in the church
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
John 16:12-14
the apostles weren’t creating doctrine in the epistles the epistles are companions to the gospel the gospel Jesus preached is the doctrine , but there was a lot of explaining of thkngs he left out because they weren’t grasping a lot of it yet they had no revelation
so if we look at what Jesus began to teach , and the epistles we are they are companions the epistles help us better grasp the gospel because some of it is very parabolic , and somewhat hidden when Jesus spoke it , Peter and Paul and Johns role was to share the revelation given to them when they each received the holt spirit and revelation of the prophets and apostles witness of the gospel
the apostles are all
Preaching the gospel it’s firther more opened understanding so more can grasp it without knowing the prophets they offer revelation of the prophets like this summary of the old and foretelling of the new it’s the apostles doctrine also just a quick summary
“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:44-
revelationtells us that Christ was the promised messiah the law and prophets witnesses would come and now the gospel is preached in Christs name to all
People by the apostles and all the early church when Paul scattered them by persecution it spread the gospel
“As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.”
Acts 8:3-4 KJV
the word is the gospel that Jesus preached when he was on earth the epistles are all companion writings to help us grasp the gospel and it’s applicable faith To our daily lives so we can walk in the things of salvetion
There’s no conflict between the apostles doctrine and the gospel it’s a matter of revelation so it appears somewhat different it’s better understood in some points
the apostles role is this here when they each received the spirit and thier calling as one of the twelve appointed witnesses this was going to be thier role in the church
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
John 16:12-14
the apostles weren’t creating doctrine in the epistles the epistles are companions to the gospel the gospel Jesus preached is the doctrine , but there was a lot of explaining of thkngs he left out because they weren’t grasping a lot of it yet they had no revelation
so if we look at what Jesus began to teach , and the epistles we are they are companions the epistles help us better grasp the gospel because some of it is very parabolic , and somewhat hidden when Jesus spoke it , Peter and Paul and Johns role was to share the revelation given to them when they each received the holt spirit and revelation of the prophets and apostles witness of the gospel
the apostles are all
Preaching the gospel it’s firther more opened understanding so more can grasp it without knowing the prophets they offer revelation of the prophets like this summary of the old and foretelling of the new it’s the apostles doctrine also just a quick summary
“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:44-
revelationtells us that Christ was the promised messiah the law and prophets witnesses would come and now the gospel is preached in Christs name to all
People by the apostles and all the early church when Paul scattered them by persecution it spread the gospel
“As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.”
Acts 8:3-4 KJV
the word is the gospel that Jesus preached when he was on earth the epistles are all companion writings to help us grasp the gospel and it’s applicable faith To our daily lives so we can walk in the things of salvetion
There’s no conflict between the apostles doctrine and the gospel it’s a matter of revelation so it appears somewhat different it’s better understood in some points
first example what Jesus said to baptise in the name of Father, son and Holy Ghost, I reckon he wasnt going to name HIMSELF when instructing the disciples/apostles but they all knew WHO he meant.
What Jesus did and what the apostles did of course would have been diffferent according to how they interpreted wat Jesus was telling them to do. For example. Paul was specifically instructed to reach gentiles. None of the other apostles were told to go to the gentiles, and so they didnt.
The foot washing thing. This was common practice, and it would seem everyone in Israel did this anyway as a mark of hospitality. Why it fell out of favour I am not sure. Maybe it was because socks were invented or as the gospel moved to cooler climes it wasnt needed.
I reckon dont get so hung up on these things otherwise you are going to be constantly judging people on what they eat, their jobs how much they earn, and how they dress. Which, by account of Galatians and James letters people were STILL doing, even when Jesus clearly taught it was wrong to do so.
What Jesus did and what the apostles did of course would have been diffferent according to how they interpreted wat Jesus was telling them to do. For example. Paul was specifically instructed to reach gentiles. None of the other apostles were told to go to the gentiles, and so they didnt.
The foot washing thing. This was common practice, and it would seem everyone in Israel did this anyway as a mark of hospitality. Why it fell out of favour I am not sure. Maybe it was because socks were invented or as the gospel moved to cooler climes it wasnt needed.
I reckon dont get so hung up on these things otherwise you are going to be constantly judging people on what they eat, their jobs how much they earn, and how they dress. Which, by account of Galatians and James letters people were STILL doing, even when Jesus clearly taught it was wrong to do so.
Washing hands seems to be back in vogue now cos of covid, but the whole hand sanistising thing goes a bit far.
Back in Bible times, it was foot sanitising. Or sanistising full stop. Water was precious. It still is, but the way some people waste it and flush it down the toilet now you wonder.
Back in Bible times, it was foot sanitising. Or sanistising full stop. Water was precious. It still is, but the way some people waste it and flush it down the toilet now you wonder.
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Yes, Precious friend, agree, we SHOULD be of "one mind" =
I Totally agree With God On This Very Issue:
Php 1:27 "Only let your conversation be as it becometh The Gospel Of CHRIST:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of
The Gospel;"
Because to the "carnal And DIVIDED" assembly at Corinth,
God Inspired Paul to write:
1Co 1:9 "God is Faithful, By Whom ye were called unto
The Fellowship Of His SON, JESUS CHRIST our LORD."
1Co 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, By The Name Of our
LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all speak the same thing, and
that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be
perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Just so I understand you correctly, we disagree, and are Divided, because
you "ALWAYS follow what Jesus Himself said! ALWAYS." Correct?
Humbly and kindly, I will try ONE more Clarification of This IMPORTANT
Matter/Doctrine Of God, By The Scriptures, Of "why I Respectfully Disagree.
Since "you want to know what others believe," Fair enough?
Ok, since I am "misunderstanding," let us E-X-P-A-N-D What JESUS Said TO
The Twelve to "teach ISRAEL," and find out IF they are "The Same," shall we?:
Mat 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father Which is in heaven is perfect." How? JESUS Made it Very Plain And Clear!:
Mat_19:21 "JESUS Said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow ME."
Ok, now, according to your belief of "peoples Divisive arguments," is
that "the apostles Record is that they DID SOMETHING DIFFERENT"?
(As YOU Plainly said: "I KNOW THIS because there have been numerous
arguments here concerning this subject." Correct?)
But, How About According To "The RECORD" Of God's Pure And HOLY Word!?:
Act 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"
Act 2:45 "And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men,
as every man had need."
Act 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and
of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he
possessed was his own; but they had all things common."
Act 4:34 "Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as
were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices
of the things that were sold,"
Act 4:35 "And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution
was made unto every man according as he had need."
So, how is it that What God's Says are "the same" man says are different?
Surely, I'm confused and misunderstand, p_rehbein, as you say
you "ALWAYS follow this," Correct?
So, have you yourself obeyed/followed CHRIST by being PERFECT by
selling everything And following HIM, as Clearly Clarified And Shown
to ALL of us, By The Scriptures Above?
Does not God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, SOLVE
this misunderstanding and Confusion? Since "you want to know,"
The Following is "what I "believe And follow" i.e:
For ISRAEL, Under Prophecy/Law on earth, Christ Commanded
The Twelve, And they OBEYED Perfectly, Be Perfect/Sell! But!:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
For The Body Of CHRIST, of Which I am a "member," Under GRACE, And The
"Revelation Of The MYSTERY," From CHRIST, In Heaven, HE Commanded
ONE "apostle to the Gentiles," Paul {my "Pattern to FOLLOW!"}, the following:
{sell everything?} OR:
1Th_4:11 "And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to
work with your own hands, as we commanded you;"
Eph 4:28 "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with
his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."
What Exactly Did Paul Do, with THESE COMMANDS Of CHRIST, From Heaven?:
Was he "an apostle {according to Divisive arguments} that did SOMETHING
Different Than What CHRIST Commanded him {And us!}"
Did he actually Disobey God, And SELL EVERYTHING? God's RECORD!:
Act 18:2 "And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately
come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; ( because that Claudius had
commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them."
Act 18:3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with
them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers."
Act 20:33 "I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel."
Act 20:34 "Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have
ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me."
Act 20:35 " I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye
ought to support the weak, and to remember The Words Of The
LORD JESUS, How HE Said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thus, I "follow Paul, as he follows CHRIST!":
1Co_11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of CHRIST."
1Ti_1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first
JESUS CHRIST might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to
them which should hereafter believe on HIM to life everlasting."
Thanks Be To God For HIS Truth! Amen?
Why is this so Difficult to "understand"?
Be Blessed!
I Totally agree With God On This Very Issue:
Php 1:27 "Only let your conversation be as it becometh The Gospel Of CHRIST:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of
The Gospel;"
Because to the "carnal And DIVIDED" assembly at Corinth,
God Inspired Paul to write:
1Co 1:9 "God is Faithful, By Whom ye were called unto
The Fellowship Of His SON, JESUS CHRIST our LORD."
1Co 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, By The Name Of our
LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all speak the same thing, and
that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be
perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Just so I understand you correctly, we disagree, and are Divided, because
you "ALWAYS follow what Jesus Himself said! ALWAYS." Correct?
Humbly and kindly, I will try ONE more Clarification of This IMPORTANT
Matter/Doctrine Of God, By The Scriptures, Of "why I Respectfully Disagree.
Since "you want to know what others believe," Fair enough?
Ok, since I am "misunderstanding," let us E-X-P-A-N-D What JESUS Said TO
The Twelve to "teach ISRAEL," and find out IF they are "The Same," shall we?:
Mat 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father Which is in heaven is perfect." How? JESUS Made it Very Plain And Clear!:
Mat_19:21 "JESUS Said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow ME."
Ok, now, according to your belief of "peoples Divisive arguments," is
that "the apostles Record is that they DID SOMETHING DIFFERENT"?
(As YOU Plainly said: "I KNOW THIS because there have been numerous
arguments here concerning this subject." Correct?)
But, How About According To "The RECORD" Of God's Pure And HOLY Word!?:
Act 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"
Act 2:45 "And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men,
as every man had need."
Act 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and
of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he
possessed was his own; but they had all things common."
Act 4:34 "Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as
were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices
of the things that were sold,"
Act 4:35 "And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution
was made unto every man according as he had need."
So, how is it that What God's Says are "the same" man says are different?
Surely, I'm confused and misunderstand, p_rehbein, as you say
you "ALWAYS follow this," Correct?
So, have you yourself obeyed/followed CHRIST by being PERFECT by
selling everything And following HIM, as Clearly Clarified And Shown
to ALL of us, By The Scriptures Above?
Does not God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, SOLVE
this misunderstanding and Confusion? Since "you want to know,"
The Following is "what I "believe And follow" i.e:
For ISRAEL, Under Prophecy/Law on earth, Christ Commanded
The Twelve, And they OBEYED Perfectly, Be Perfect/Sell! But!:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
For The Body Of CHRIST, of Which I am a "member," Under GRACE, And The
"Revelation Of The MYSTERY," From CHRIST, In Heaven, HE Commanded
ONE "apostle to the Gentiles," Paul {my "Pattern to FOLLOW!"}, the following:
{sell everything?} OR:
1Th_4:11 "And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to
work with your own hands, as we commanded you;"
Eph 4:28 "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with
his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."
What Exactly Did Paul Do, with THESE COMMANDS Of CHRIST, From Heaven?:
Was he "an apostle {according to Divisive arguments} that did SOMETHING
Different Than What CHRIST Commanded him {And us!}"
Did he actually Disobey God, And SELL EVERYTHING? God's RECORD!:
Act 18:2 "And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately
come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; ( because that Claudius had
commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them."
Act 18:3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with
them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers."
Act 20:33 "I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel."
Act 20:34 "Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have
ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me."
Act 20:35 " I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye
ought to support the weak, and to remember The Words Of The
LORD JESUS, How HE Said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thus, I "follow Paul, as he follows CHRIST!":
1Co_11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of CHRIST."
1Ti_1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first
JESUS CHRIST might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to
them which should hereafter believe on HIM to life everlasting."
Thanks Be To God For HIS Truth! Amen?
Why is this so Difficult to "understand"?
Be Blessed!