50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[soberxp]

The DOTL is two things:

1) A 1000 year period of time.
2) The first [24-hour] day of that [very same] 1000 year period of time.

#1 is the 1000-year reign of Christ.
#2 is the [very same] day that Christ appears. (the 'Second Coming of Christ')

#3 one day is 1000-year in the eyes of Lord

 

[GaryA]

The expression 'Second Coming' just seems plain incorrect
as Jesus also comes back in judgment.
Obviously whenever he returns in judgment he is not physically appearing to those who look for him!

Once we understand the difference between appearance and coming,
then various confusing passages can be cleared up i think.

He will [physically] appear at His [Second] Coming.

'salvation' for the righteous; 'judgment' for the wicked

 

[GaryA]

https://www.deidrehavrelock.com/hair-is-a-womans-glory-but-why/

I believe the author of the article misinterprets 1 Corinthians 11:9–10.

 

[GaryA]

Preterism is literally scriptural terrorism.

Perhaps - I could probably agree - but, Historicism is not.

 

[GaryA]

" hey Ben i am coming to get you. Where are you?"
I am in milton fl. Just inside the city limit sign..

"Ok, i will pick you up at 6. Meet me at that sign"

Picks him up and drives off the other way...never crosses the city limit sign.

Postrib adherent ..." He never entered the city, so he never went to milton. He only appeared....never came"

Hair splitting is poor exegesis.

Then - the pre-trib hair-splitting idea that "If His feet don't touch the ground, it is not a 'coming'..." is really poor exegesis.

Your example is not accurate in the context of Jesus 'coming' to the earth. (from the 3rd heaven)

Anywhere in proximity to the earth constitutes a 'coming'.

 

[ewq1938]

Then - the pre-trib hair-splitting idea that "If His feet don't touch the ground, it is not a 'coming'..." is really poor exegesis.

Your example is not accurate in the context of Jesus 'coming' to the earth. (from the 3rd heaven)

Anywhere in proximity to the earth constitutes a 'coming'.

Agreed. I mean, how many months did Christ NOT touch the ground with his feet at the first coming when he was a baby?

 

[GaryA]

Using more verses is the high ground.
And yes humor is a plus to make the back and forth lighter

Put downs are heaviness.

Yes - "telling like it is" (or, "like I see it") is one thing - [personal] put-downs are unnecessary and counter-productive.

 

[GaryA]

DEPARTED "from the faith," NOT GENUINELY BORN AGAIN, Correct?

No - departing from the faith means leaving a state of being in the faith.

Not genuinely born-again is never actually being in the faith.

 

[GaryA]

I certainly don't believe that the 7th trumpet is the trumpet of the rapture.

What is obvious to me is that there will be 7 seal judgments, 7 trumpet judgments, and then 7 bowl judgments. And THEN, there will be the Second Coming, announced by the "last trumpet". Couldn't be simpler.

Order of Events

Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Resurrection & Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7

From:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

 

[GaryA]

I think you missed the salient point. That being born again true believers NEVER leave the faith.

There certainly will be millions upon millions of believing Christians on the earth at twilight, who will be raptured in the twinkling of an eye before the DARKNESS/DOTL comes.

To postulate that all Christians will (by some superior power or influence over and above Christ) become apostate is unscriptural and in fact impossible. Unless you believe in the heresy of "losing your salvation".

I think you missed the point...

A believer who departs from the faith (or, leaves the faith, if you prefer) is not the same thing as a believer "becoming unsaved" (or, loosing their salvation).

That is not the issue.

The passage says there would be a falling away (from the faith).

It does not say it will be everyone.

It does not say anyone will be lost.

It [only] says there will be a falling away.

The meaning of it is in the sense of forsaking the faith.

 

[OldSage]

Perhaps - I could probably agree - but, Historicism is not.

Well unless he defines what Preterism is, it is a meaningless statement to me and probably many others.
Even if he defined Preterism though, it surely will remain a totally stupid remark, unless Preterism involves taking
people hostage on planes and throwing grenades into supermarkets.
I await his exegesis, I am sure it will be extraordinarily instructive

 

[OldSage]

Agreed. I mean, how many months did Christ NOT touch the ground with his feet at the first coming when he was a baby?

You show a very poor grasp of scripture.

The Lord made many comings before coming to Israel in the first century-

Genesis 17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

18 And the Lord appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre:

 

[OldSage]

He will [physically] appear at His [Second] Coming.

'salvation' for the righteous; 'judgment' for the wicked

That's the point here Gary. Christ coming and Christ making a physical appearance are not the same thing.
That is why it is worth paying very close attention to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Christ appeared to Abraham, but he came to Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[OldSage]

The "falling away" event is a large group of Christians falling away at the same time and is directly associated with the man of sin.

How can they 'fall away' if they never followed Christ in the first place?
You don't make any sense.

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Probably doesn't mean much considering that you believe Christians actually go through the time of the wrath of the Lamb. Whatever you think of this so-called apostasy is going to be wrong.

Let's examine some Scripture that pretribbers quote as proof of a pretrib rapture.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

First, this is addressed to a church of faithful believers (kept My command to endure patiently).

Second, the result is that THEY will be kept from the hour of trial. So Jesus wasn't saying He was going to take ALL the believers to heaven before the Trib, as typically assumed. He is saying that the FAITHFUL believers will be kept from the hour of trial.

God is perfectly capable of keeping anyone He chooses away from His wrath when it will be poured out on the earth.

This is why I am confident that no believer will ever take the mark of the beast. Such believers will prove hardly faithful or obedient. And they will not survive to the time when the mark will be made available.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I certainly don't believe that the 7th trumpet is the trumpet of the rapture.

What is obvious to me is that there will be 7 seal judgments, 7 trumpet judgments, and then 7 bowl judgments. And THEN, there will be the Second Coming, announced by the "last trumpet". Couldn't be simpler.

Order of Events

Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Resurrection & Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7

From:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

OK, so it seems you are a "pre-wrath" kind of guy. That Jesus comes for believers in the middle of the trib.

So then, please explain 2 Thess 2:1 in the same style as I do:

"Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

OK, now your turn. Just put in the parentheses what you think the words "coming" and "being gathered" refers to, as I have.

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[OldSage]

FreeGrace2 said:
I certainly don't believe that the 7th trumpet is the trumpet of the rapture.

What is obvious to me is that there will be 7 seal judgments, 7 trumpet judgments, and then 7 bowl judgments. And THEN, there will be the Second Coming, announced by the "last trumpet". Couldn't be simpler.

OK, so it seems you are a "pre-wrath" kind of guy. That Jesus comes for believers in the middle of the trib.

So then, please explain 2 Thess 2:1 in the same style as I do:

"Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

OK, now your turn. Just put in the parentheses what you think the words "coming" and "being gathered" refers to, as I have.

Looking forward to your reply.

'episynagogue epi autos' means 'our blessed religious assembling in Christ'

So what Paul is talking about here is the coming of Christ in judgment on Jerusalem, and the Jewish Church's blessed
religious gathering to Christ - i.e. their escape from Jerusalem

 

[Absolutely]

I don't know what makes you "unique," but it doesn't matter to me what "apostasia" literally means to a Greek person as much as how the word is being used in context. If I want to know about the word in the original language, I would ask my brother, who is somewhat trained to find out.

And he is but another human.

We have anything he can reference also.

I looked into the rabbit trail you reference many years ago, around the mid eighties.

It is inconclusive as i have already stated.

The FACTS i showed you is what makes it "special"

Reading your post however, suggests you are exalting the messenger over the facts.

 

[Absolutely]

Wrong. It is pre-tribbers who change the word from it's true meaning of a departure from a religious belief to a physical departure which the word does not mean and has never meant. Pretrib is not in the bible so changes like this must be made so they can seem to have support for their view.

I am pretrib and i am fine with where you parked on the "falling away from the faith"

I am also fine with " departure"

It is pretrib rapture either way.

Win win.

Glad i do not need it to say this or that.
I can read it and enjoy what it says.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, I do believe Christians are here to the end, with probably many experiencing wrath--not as directed at them, but only because they happen to share the world with those who are unworthy. There will be Christians who are "alive and remain" till the coming of the Lord.

Uh no.
The AC DEMANDS that ALL TAKE THE MARK.
That alone removes ANY hope of your postrib rapture.

NO SUCH THING AS A POSTRIB RAPTURE.

....and NO VERSES supporting it

None