50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[GaryA]

I used to think that too. But since the Bema is 1,000 yrs before the GWT judgment, only unbelievers will be there, in the "second resurrection" and will be facing the "second death".

What? No believers during the Millennium?

I suggest that the absolute majority of people that live during the Millennium will be saved.

When will they have their Judgment Day?



Let me "clue you in" on something --- the "BEMA" judgment and the GWT judgment are one-and-the-same.

And - everyone will be there...

 

[GaryA]

And 1Th 4:16 says the dead are resurrected BEFORE anyone is in the clouds proving they do resurrect in heaven. There is NOTHING about the dead resurrecting in the clouds. Even the raptured saints are made immortal BEFORE being in the clouds. The same is true about the dead being immortal before they arrive at the clouds.

Why is this so difficult?????

The dead in Christ are resurrected on earth - and subsequently "caught up" to the clouds.

 

[GaryA]

If you are trying to be a teacher you need to make things so your students can understand them. I am not sure about the person that wrote this to you but they may only be a bab in Christ and need a little more milk and not so much meat. Jesus met the people on their level. Thewatchman

I agree with the intent of this statement - and, I try to do the best I can; however, how many "babes in Christ" do you know that study End Times prophecy?

 

[GaryA]

The Great Tribulation is great persecution of Christians and that ends when the 7th trump sounds signalling the second coming. At that point no Christian can be further persecuted because they will be made immortal then moved upwards to the clouds to join Christ and his second coming army. This is found in various passages like Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 11 and 19 and some others.

So - you are saying that the '7th trump' marks the end of the GT?

 

[ewq1938]

Why is this so difficult?????

The dead in Christ are resurrected on earth - and subsequently "caught up" to the clouds.

The dead in Christ are in heaven where the new body is also located. I've posted scripture proving this already so scroll back if you want to see it.

The dead in Christ resurrect and DESCEND from heaven down to the clouds of the Earth.
The living in Christ are changed and then ASCEND from the Earth up to the clouds of the Earth.

 

[ewq1938]

So - you are saying that the '7th trump' marks the end of the GT?

Yes. It is impossible for any persecution or tribulation to be brought upon Christians from Satan and his forces once the 7th trump sounds and that's because all Christians past and present plus OT saints are immortal at that time.

 

[GaryA]

(because I think you and I agree on ONE SMALL point, in that, I believe that the "2W's 1260 days" runs concurrently with the first SIX TRUMPETS

Yes. But, I think it is the only thing in your post we agree on... (haha)

 

[GaryA]

I'm not saying that's how it went down.

I *am* saying that this is how the Spirit had each of them TO RECORD it, though, see...

...and so the Matthew account is much longer (spanning two whole chapters)...

...and why Matthew's account includes the word "[when] THEREFORE [G3767]" in v.15, that Luke's account does not use (when it comes to the items they were to "SEE--" [...in each instance])

All three accounts are saying the same thing.

 

[GaryA]

I disagree because I see the items in Daniel 9:24-27 as being SEQUENTIAL

(and I showed how each "connects" [to other things in scripture] in past posts, so I won't go into all that here, again )

If that were true, you would have 69 weeks + 62 weeks + some time of unknown length + 7 weeks + some more time of unknown length...

Not sequential.

Has overlaps.

490 consecutive years

no breaks

ended in 34 A.D.

 

[GaryA]

The "5th Seal"/and thus "5th Seal martyrs" AND the ones BEHEADED for not worshiping the beast (2nd half of trib, martyrs) are BOTH "killed" DURING / WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 [/ 4:1 / 1:19c] speaks of... (i.e. within the 7-yr trib... not a near-2000-yr one )

Nope.

 

[GaryA]

Yes. It is impossible for any persecution or tribulation to be brought upon Christians from Satan and his forces once the 7th trump sounds and that's because all Christians past and present plus OT saints are immortal at that time.

In that case, do you realize the Trumpet Events (1-6) are in conflict?

Matthew 24:29 says they are post-trib.

 

[GaryA]

It is impossible for any persecution or tribulation to be brought upon Christians from Satan and his forces once the 7th trump sounds and that's because all Christians past and present plus OT saints are immortal at that time.

I agree with this statement.

Also...

Praise the Lord when that day comes!

 

[ewq1938]

In that case, do you realize the Trumpet Events (1-6) are in conflict?

Matthew 24:29 says they are post-trib.

There is no conflict. The 6th trumpet is the Great Tribulation, trumps 1-5 happen before thousand years Great Tribulation. The 7th and last trump is the second coming signifying the end the of Great Tribulation and the beginning of the wrath of God.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come , and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If that were true, you would have 69 weeks + 62 weeks + some time of unknown length + 7 weeks + some more time of unknown length...

Are you reading the same text I am? lol

1) "FROM... UNTO the Messiah the Prince" = 7 Wks + 62 Wks (or "69 Wks" TOTAL, to this point); [not sure where you got "69 + 62"]

2) "AFTER" which He shall be "CUT OFF" and "have nothing [or, but not for himself]" (32ad--His rejection/trials and Cross); [see my posts on "CUT OFF" passages];

3) then "the people OF" do the 70ad things (... "the ppl OF" a certain other "prince THAT SHALL COME"--not he himself) "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (i.e. the 70ad events, corresponding with Luke 21:12-24a and Matthew 22:7 and Luke 19:41-44 and Mark 13:1-2/Luke 21:5-6/Matt24:1-2 etc etc);

4) [following on from that...] "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" (Matt23:38[37] being one AMONG them... [but note v.39's "UNTIL" thing also --SAID TO "Jerusalem" see...]);

5) [then toward the end of *that*...] the "FOR ONE [1] WEEK [7 yrs]" thing, done by the v.26b "prince THAT SHALL COME" himself will be present to DO *all* he is slated to DO over those "7 yrs" (this makes up the "70 Wks" TOTAL) [not sure how you came up with "Weeks" that ADD UP to *OVER* "70"... how is that??]; at the END of THIS Jesus "RETURNS" to the earth (Rev19) and Daniel will "STAND IN THY LOT" (i.e. be "resurrected" to stand again [on the earth], that is, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which will be commencing at that point in the chronology)




[see how the BLUE numbers above ADD UP to "70"??... and that every "point" speaks to "Jerusalem [/thy holy city]" as I've pointed out in past posts (I've not supplied the references in this post so much, though...), which is the SUBJECT of the Dan9:24-27 prophecy itself, see...]

 

[GaryA]

There is no conflict. The 6th trumpet is the Great Tribulation, trumps 1-5 happen before thousand years Great Tribulation. The 7th and last trump is the second coming signifying the end the of Great Tribulation and the beginning of the wrath of God.

We can disagree. I was just trying to help you understand what I and my chart were saying.

What "thousand years Great Tribulation" exactly?

 

[GaryA]

Are you reading the same text I am? lol

1) "FROM... UNTO the Messiah the Prince" = 7 Wks + 62 Wks (or "69 Wks" TOTAL, to this point); [not sure where you got "69 + 62"]

2) "AFTER" which He shall be "CUT OFF" and "have nothing [or, but not for himself]" (32ad--His rejection/trials and Cross); [see my posts on "CUT OFF" passages];

3) then "the people OF" do the 70ad things (... "the ppl OF" a certain other "prince THAT SHALL COME"--not he himself) "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (i.e. the 70ad events, corresponding with Luke 21:12-24a and Matthew 22:7 and Luke 19:41-44 and Mark 13:1-2/Luke 21:5-6/Matt24:1-2 etc etc);

4) [following on from that...] "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" (Matt23:38[37] being one AMONG them... [but note v.39's "UNTIL" thing also --SAID TO "Jerusalem" see...]);

5) [then toward the end of *that*...] the "FOR ONE [1] WEEK [7 yrs]" thing, done by the v.26b "prince THAT SHALL COME" himself will be present to DO *all* he is slated to DO over those "7 yrs" (this makes up the "70 Wks" TOTAL) [not sure how you came up with "Weeks" that ADD UP to *OVER* "70"... how is that??]; at the END of THIS Jesus "RETURNS" to the earth (Rev19) and Daniel will "STAND IN THY LOT" (i.e. be "resurrected" to stand again [on the earth], that is, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which will be commencing at that point in the chronology)




[see how the BLUE numbers above ADD UP to "70"??... and that every "point" speaks to "Jerusalem [/thy holy city]" as I've pointed out in past posts (I've not supplied the references in this post so much, though...), which is the SUBJECT of the Dan9:24-27 prophecy itself, see...]

Well --- you said 'sequential'....




Teasing you...

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[ewq1938]

We can disagree. I was just trying to help you understand what I and my chart were saying.

What "thousand years Great Tribulation" exactly?

That was a type-o...thousand years should have just been "the"...I have software that types "thousand years" when I type "th" as a shortcut.

 

[OldSage]

I can't recall if I've asked you this before (as I've addressed this with others), what do you think Jesus meant when He said (to the 12):

--"[when...]... ye also shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel." - Lk22:30 / Matt19:28 [with this latter verse paralleling the TIMING also shown in Matt25:31-34]


...In your view, what and when is this referring to?

I think your ideas on Matt 24 are wildly wrong. I am not sure how you explain away the fact that Jesus was talking about people in Judea fleeing to the hills. All his advice is 1st Century.

I have no idea what bits of Rev you are trying to cobble into Matt and Dan, but I assume for it to work Jesus would have said 'when they try to insert a chip under your skin' or something like that.......

Regarding the 12 thrones. Not really sure. Why do you ask?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @OldSage , I'll have to come back later tomorrow to address your question... but earlier today it came to my mind that there had been a thread on the subject of "Preterism" last year, and this particular post from that thread had come to mind (for this thread, and some of your points here), so I thought I'd just place it here for now (no time to talk right now, sorry)... posted in May 2020:

[re: my question in the following post]

Post #88 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4261976



Later...

 

[OldSage]

^ @OldSage , I'll have to come back later tomorrow to address your question... but earlier today it came to my mind that there had been a thread on the subject of "Preterism" last year, and this particular post from that thread had come to mind (for this thread, and some of your points here), so I thought I'd just place it here for now (no time to talk right now, sorry)... posted in May 2020:

[re: my question in the following post]

Post #88 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4261976




Later...

Why is Preterism in view here TDW?
What is in view is you butchering what Jesus said on the Mt of Olives,
and butchering the prophecies given to Daniel.
I don't even know what Preterism is, so why are you shifting the debate
Into something that is extra-biblical and beyond the scope of the discussion? Makes no sense.
But once again I see you have avoided answering a plain and direct question. Sorry but it has to be said.