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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#41
Hello guys. Adam disobeyed the Father. For this he was punished.

Although the law was not yet given written down, it was still a sin for sin is defined as disobeying lae.

God told Adam not to eat of the tree.

Do not make things out of the reach of reason through vain theological philosophies.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,095
30,215
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#42
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13 For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16 Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,624
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#43
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1» Was Jesus a Christian?

Jesus was a Jew thru and thru who believed and practiced the Old
Testament in compliance with the Prophets and the various covenants; most
especially the one that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. (Gal 4:4)
_
he lives under the law until this moment

“And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at that point this exchange happened

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophets who kept telling the story of the messiah who was coming to teach the true judgements of God

he preached the gospel a few years and then afterwards he died on the cross , at that moment the words changed because it’s when a man dies that his will goes into effect not before but after his death the words in his will become immutable under any legal a situation no one can change a mans Will if it’s done correctly

“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


so when Jesus began to contradict the mosaic law in his preaching like this

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:( exodus 21:24-25 )


But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He wasn’t violating anything he was fulfilling what Moses always said would happen preaching the word of Gods requirement it wasn’t going to be Moses but Jesus

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s why Jesus was saying stuff like this constantly

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48

isreal asked that Moses would tell them Gods word instead of God himself because they were afraid he didn’t do that though he told Moses I’ll raise them up another prophet and he is the one they have to hear “ so then Moses told the people this thy at Peter explains perfectly and confirms what he said and that it’s Jesus who is that promised messiah

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18, 22-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the order is when he was baptized he began preaching the gospel by the spirit , then he shed the blood of his covenant and all he had said beforehand became the word of requirement and the temporal thkngs were left behind he fulfilled them and sent his gospel into the world for everyone who would believe jew or gentile

the law seperate jew from everyone else Christ includes everyone who believes regardless of nationality

the noment the atonement sacrifice is made for sin all of the testator a words become irrevocable according to the testament Christ was the fulfillment of the bold and giver of the new

His speaking his word and then shedding his blood is the truth behind this event

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s only a pattern for Jesus word and blood however the truth is the gospel

Covenant exists when the terms are set forth but the authority in thy relationship and the agreement is reached between two parties, and after the agreement of the word the blood is shed according to all the spoken Word of the covenant

if we have only a sacrifice we don’t have a covenant promise of we hear the word and the blood is shed upon us for sin according to the covenant all of the blessings and warnings become irrevocable based on thy bloodshed
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#44
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Rom 5:13 . . For until the law sin was in the world:

_
And once again.

Your verse says that sin was in the world.......but you left out this part..........>"where there is no Law there is no Transgression".

So, ....."sin", is in the world, as EVIL, but its not defined as "sin", until "the law came by Moses".
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#45
Although the law was not yet given written down, it was still a sin for sin

"where there is no law, there is no transgression".

There was no "law" in the Garden, as "the Law came by Moses".

So, what Adam did, was what Lucifer did....."iniquity was found in Him".......that is rebellion, which is the heart of sin.

Later, when Moses showed up, the Law and Commandments defined "sin" as all those different choices of rebellion that it Titled, per, "sin".
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,462
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#46
You seem to be studied and somewhat learned. There was the oral tradition handed down from Adam, then from Noah, and when man drifted sofar away from our Maker, the children of Israel too, Moses was given the oral tradition that was accoding to our Maker, and wrot id ot dpwm/

This included the law. As you havee said, where there is no law there is no sin.
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#47
You seem to be studied and somewhat learned. There was the oral tradition handed down from Adam, then from Noah, and when man drifted sofar away from our Maker, the children of Israel too, Moses was given the oral tradition that was accoding to our Maker, and wrot id ot dpwm/

This included the law. As you havee said, where there is no law there is no sin.

Paul.......the apostle to the Gentiles, ......teaches that the 10 commandments are "the ministration of Condemnation", and the Law, is the "letter that Killeth".

Here is something interesting..

On the Day that Moses gave the 10 commandments, ...3000 jews DIED.

On the Day that Pentecost arrived and the Holy Spirit was given, 3000 Jews were born again.

So, this is the situation you find............as.........being "under the law".........vs.......>"under Grace".
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,890
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#48
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18» What Is The Fallen Nature?

In a nutshell: the so-called fallen nature is a preference for unobstructed,
unrestrained, self rule; i.e. deciding for one's self what determines right and
wrong and/or what determines good and evil. In that respect, the fallen
nature tends to be its own God and resists cooperating with the real God.
(Gen 3:22 and Rom 8:7-8)
_
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#49
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18» What Is The Fallen Nature?

In a nutshell: the so-called fallen nature is a preference for unobstructed,
unrestrained, self rule;
_
That is not correct.

The "fallen nature" is the "Adamic Nature" that came to be the nature of Adam, that is the result of Adam's Spirit becoming separated from God's Spirit, because of his disobedience.
"spiritual UNION" with God was lost, because of Adam's Disobedience.
The 2nd Adam, who is Jesus The Christ, came to resolve for all the world what Adam lost.
That is for the born again to become again, "ONE WITH GOD",.. SPIRITUALLY = exactly as Adam's Spirit existed, before this was broken by Adam's disobedience.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,890
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Oregon
#50
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That is not correct.

What did I just tell you this morning about making yourself truth police?

» If you're not sure what truth police are, you might profit by taking the
time to read a synopsis of Georg Orwell's novel "Nineteen Eighty-four" or
maybe looking into the machinations of the so-called cancel culture
so prevalent these days on social media.
_
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,462
6,721
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#51
I am very well placed in the Ministery of Truth, at least that is what George told me.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,890
1,084
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Oregon
#52
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19» Did Jesus' Mom expect Him Back From Death?

A search of the names of the women who went out to Christ's grave site on
Easter morning doesn't find her mentioned among them, nor does 1Cor
15:1-8.

None of Christ's original disciples believed he was going to recover from
crucifixion, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that Christ's mom didn't believe
either. It's not like she committed some kind of heinous atrocity or gross sin.
Her doubt was simply status quo among Christ's followers.

There's really very few plausible Bible reasons why Christ's mom wasn't out
in the cemetery waiting to greet her son Easter morning.

1) She didn't believe he was coming back

2) She didn't believe he could come back

3) She forgot he said he was coming back

4) She didn't know he said he was coming back

5) She was indisposed when he came back

6) She was out of town when he came back

In regards to No.1; because normal mothers are so bonded to their own
flesh and blood, this reason seems to me the most likely.

In regards to No.2; the physical mess Jesus was in after his ordeal makes
this a likely possibility; but no excuse.

In regards to No.3; that actually happened to a number of the disciples-- but
would a normal mother forget something like that?

In regards to No.4; it's highly unlikely Jesus would confide such an
important matter with his disciples and not his own mom-- the alleged
Queen Of Heaven and the Mother Of All Christians?

In regards to No.5; there's nothing in the Gospel narratives suggesting
Christ's mom was indisposed.

In regards to No.6; it's highly unlikely Christ's mom would leave Jerusalem if
she knew her boy was going to recover from crucifixion. Any truly loving
mother would want to be on hand when her boy was restored to life and his
injuries healed. Surely that would be just as much cause for a joyous
reunion as a son coming home alive and well from Afghanistan.

I don't know if any hereabouts have children of their own, but I can tell you
from 39+ years of parental experience with a very sensitive woman, that if
my son were to be killed, and his mother expected him back in three days;
she would have been camped out in that cemetery all three of those days
waiting for him; and threats to cut her throat wouldn't persuade her.
otherwise. Any normal mother would have been out there in that cemetery
even if there was only a remote chance their boy might recover. I know,
because I've seen that kind of mother's love right here in my own home.

If Christ's mom truly believed her boy would recover, and truly expected him
to; then if she was even half the mother my wife is; she would have been
out there at the very least on the third day waiting for him with food and
water and fresh clothing; but alas, she wasn't: not because she didn't love
her son; but simply because she wasn't expecting him to be there.
_
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,890
1,084
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Oregon
#53
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20» Why Did The Man In Luke 16:19-31 Address Abraham As "father"?

Abraham, in turn, addressed the man as "son" which strongly suggests to
me that the man is a Jew; and as such would be related to Abraham as
grandfather/grandson via Isaac and Jacob.

The rich man is reported to have five brothers. Those would be related to
Abraham too.
_
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#54
The Crucifixion started the "time of the Gentiles'"

It would be correct to teach that a person's salvation begins when they are born again.
And would not be incorrect to teach that when Jesus "breathed on the Apostles, and said, Receive ye the Spirit", that they became saved, which was before Pentecost.

I would teach that "all who believe on Jesus, shall be saved".
That includes Mary who was at Jesus's Tomb, and Lazareth's family and thousands more who believed that Jesus was Messiah before he was Crucified and before He ascended.

The Bible is always progressive revelation, so, even in the beginning of the "church" in Acts 2, ...this changed, as Paul arrived and preached what He called "my Gospel"...
You have probably been answered by others later in the thread. I just give my two cents. The apostles was not saved by Jesus breathing on them. Jesus was their path, that they had to walk, then the God marks them through the holy spirit and they are save for now. And after that they were saved by praying to get saved. And the release from the worldly life through death, they entered the gates of heaven and was at home with God.
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#55
You have probably been answered by others later in the thread. I just give my two cents. The apostles was not saved by Jesus breathing on them..

Receiving the Spirit of God, is what happens to everyone who is born again.
So, you have a case of Jesus performing upon the Apostles, exactly what God did with Adam, that caused Him to become a "living soul/spirit".

I dont teach this as being born again, but i would not teach that what Jesus did with the Apostles before Pentecost, is not the same as Acts 2.
The reason is...... In the case of the 3000, and in the case of these apostles,...... the FAITH in Christ was the same.

Notice that in Acts 2.....the verse says that 3000 were added TO "THEM">

Who is the THEM?
That would be the 12 who already HAVE what the 3000 just received, which caused the 3000 to be added to "them".


Let me paraphrase.

The 3000 were added to the Church that already existed as the 12. ("them")
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#56
Receiving the Spirit of God, is what happens to everyone who is born again.
So, you have a case of Jesus performing upon the Apostles, exactly what God did with Adam, that caused Him to become a "living soul/spirit".

I dont teach this as being born again, but i would not teach that what Jesus did with the Apostles before Pentecost, is not the same as Acts 2.
The reason is...... In the case of the 3000, and in the case of these apostles,...... the FAITH in Christ was the same.

Notice that in Acts 2.....the verse says that 3000 were added TO "THEM">

Who is the THEM?
That would be the 12 who already HAVE what the 3000 just received, which caused the 3000 to be added to "them".


Let me paraphrase.

The 3000 were added to the Church that already existed as the 12. ("them")
I have not read the bible in it's entirety. Just started reading some of the books that seem important since I became christian some time ago. Just knew verses out of context before, so I had better read this book soon. Doing some mice en place about the history of the pentacoscost stuff now. Getting to know the characters in the book first and the political situations at the time, borders, wars, etc. Informing myself of the two different herodes kings, I was not awere that there was two. Then perhaps finish the other book, and move on to this one, but getting a bit tired, and should take a break from studying to get sharp again first.

Anyways, this is just my personal opinion from what I know, and a personal expirience. Jesus points you to God, reveals the tools you need on your journey, then you make your choice or not, and when you are ready and have true faith, the holy spirit marks you. Then you are on the last leg of the path, and you can make the ask to God. And then you can relax in total peace, while you live out your remaining years on earth in perfect peace. It is up to each individual how much information that require before they can have faith and give trust. Maybe I just need less information before believing, or maybe I know enough of the meaning in the stories from movies, documentaries, preachers, etc, to know the points made, and further details and reading is not needed. But it is so very interesting to read it for myself.
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#57
I have not read the bible in it's entirety. Just started reading some of the books that seem important since I became christian some time ago. Just knew verses out of context before, so I had better read this book soon. Doing some mice en place about the history of the pentacoscost stuff now. Getting to know the characters in the book first and the political situations at the time, borders, wars, etc. Informing myself of the two different herodes kings, I was not awere that there was two. Then perhaps finish the other book, and move on to this one, but getting a bit tired, and should take a break from studying to get sharp again first.
Anyways, this is just my personal opinion from what I know, and a personal expirience. Jesus points you to God, reveals the tools you need on your journey, then you make your choice or not, and when you are ready and have true faith, the holy spirit marks you. Then you are on the last leg of the path, and you can make the ask to God. And then you can relax in total peace, while you live out your remaining years on earth in perfect peace. It is up to each individual how much information that require before they can have faith and give trust. Maybe I just need less information before believing, or maybe I know enough of the meaning in the stories from movies, documentaries, preachers, etc, to know the points made, and further details and reading is not needed. But it is so very interesting to read it for myself.
Are you born again?

Do you have a date on the Calendar, that you know is the day you believed in Jesus and took Him into your heart as your Savior, because you knew you are a sinner, and need to be forgiven, to go to heaven. ?????
Do you have this Day?
If not, do it today, just in case, you die tomorrow. Hebrews 9:27
That's a head's up for you....., just in case you are not a true believer, and are instead just....>"starting to think that this Christian stuff, might be real"""".
Its real.
Jesus is ALIVE...

So...... if you are born again, let me give you a real nugget of truth that will change everything for you, if you will do it.

Understand.....that The born again, START, day one, born again...... exactly as the same Holiness, as God Himself.
We dont try to get there........we become this, Spiritually, when be are born again, as "the righteousness of God in Christ", "made Righteous".
So, if you are born again, then you dont need to try to spend your life trying to become what you already became the instant, you were born again.
Instead, learn quickly why this has happened, and the cause, and let this always be your REAL FAITH.

And also..... start here...

Hebrews 13:9...........do what that verse tells you to do, so that you dont become what that verse tells you can happen to most believers.

And Study this..... Romans 3:21-28.

Now, if im your teacher, and you are in my Classes, then i will tell you to read Paul's epistles., and stay there for the rest of your life.
As this is "Pauline Theology", and you need to look that up, and BECOME THAT.
If you do, God will use you.
If you don't, and you are born again, then you will live your life wondering why He never did.
Believe it., as that is the choice.

See, ...... God calls and uses those who are usable, and those.... = are invested in this, 100%..... >"Pauline Theology".

Paul said...>"be a follower of ME.......as i follow Christ".
Paul isn't your savior, but he is your divinely appointed "time of the Gentiles' "gentile apostle" ..... Teacher- Leader.

Study carefully and continuously what He teaches, so that it pours out of you, and God will take you places and show you things.
If you dont do this......you'll end up on forums, years from now,..... if the Lord tarries..... RANTING about water baptism, pre-destined elect, and why you can lose your salvation.

You dont want to end up as that Heretic, as described in Hebrews 13:9
You want God to actually use you to help and not harm.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,890
1,084
113
Oregon
#58
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21» What Is Meant By Man As The Image Of God?

According to Gen 5:3 and Heb 1:1-3, image and likeness basically refers to
progeny, i.e. offspring.

Natural children are born in that position. But Man wasn't born from God-
-i.e. via procreation --rather, Man was created, viz: Man exists as God's
handiwork, sort of like how Geppetto made for himself a little wooden son
named Pinocchio.

Now, Geppetto and Pinocchio both look human, though one is for real and
the other a doll. But Man's creator isn't human, nor does He look human.
God is spirit whereas Man is physical, and God is eternal whereas Man is
temporal, and God is self-sustaining whereas Man requires sustenance. So
we have to be careful to keep the progeny aspect within reason.

It's likely best to assume that the creator endowed Man with His image and
likeness rather than Man inheriting the status as a child born in the home.
_
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,462
6,721
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#59
Has not our Father begun a work in each of us? This is His on-going work that will only be complete upon His great and glorious day. We are not doing it; He is doing this, not we.

Are we not all to be risen in the exact image of Jesus Yeshua?o

All the above being so, when Elohim said, "Come, let us make man in our image," I believe this was the message to all who believe, that is who come to believe.

It is glorious for whatever our Maker does is glorious, and He is going this glory in you and in me. Praise God, amen.
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#60
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But Man wasn't born from God-
-i.e. via procreation --rather, Man was created, viz: Man exists as God's
handiwork, sort of like how Geppetto made for himself a little wooden son
named Pinocchio.
_
Not at all.

Here is how it works.
Man, just like God is a Spirit.
God is "A" Spirit.

God the Father has no body, and Man lives in a body.
The body returns to the DIRT, and the Spirit does not.

Adam, was just a jar of clay, until God put into Adam his Spirit and then Adam became ALIVE.
As the "Spirit is Life".

So, the "image of God," is not Adam's Body as God the Father has no Body, and at the time that God created Adam, Christ the Word, was pre-incarnate.
This means all of the Trinity is Spirit....... which means that Adam being made in the "image of God" who has no BODY, is pretty clear.
This would be the Life of the Spirit, and Adam has a mentality that belongs to God.
Part of this mentality is Free Will.