What do you believe 'hell' actually is?

[AnandaHya]

Because God has given the light of nature and conscience. Romans 1-3 teaches that no one has any excuse before God. Might be a good thing to read.

added to the fact that before Moses was given the tablets people where still judged guilty of sin. God writes His laws in the heart of His creation, but some refuse to listen or hear or behave decently as God ordained people to obey His commandments. even babies know injustice when it happens to them but they tend to have sinful selfish natures. everyone does until God touches the heart and causes repentance and love for righteousness to overcome the selfish desires of the flesh and world. when God causes people to care more about others and doing His will by loving others more then themselves. When God places the Holy Spirit inside a person and makes them His children.

Romans 10:8-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[a](that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[rainacorn]

Consequences for actions sounds great, we could work justice out of that. Eternal torture for not believing, however, is the furthest thing from justice. Consequences should be fair, anyone who thinks that being in excruciating pain FOREVER is a fair punishment for what I've done in my 19 years of life, what anyone did in their ?? years of life, or even what Hitler did in his 56 years of life... Let's just say that we have a MASSIVE disagreement as to the difference between disgusting cruelty and just consequences for actions.

You've told me that I don't deserve his love, and that I've done nothing for him. I can't argue with you on that, but what have I done to deserve hell? What has anyone done to deserve hell? Just think of the suffering here on Earth, think of a nonbeliever you love dearly being tortured and beaten on Earth for just a couple days. Could you visit them in the hospital and then think they not only deserved that, but deserve far WORSE than that for ETERNITY? Sickening, unnecessary cruelty is the issue here, nothing more.

If loving God and serving Him is 'deserving' of eternal bliss, then why shouldn't rejecting Him be 'deserving' of eternal torment?

Life on Earth is a high stakes situation. You can choose not to play, but living as if there is no God is the same as rejecting Him.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

If loving God and serving Him is 'deserving' of eternal bliss, then why shouldn't rejecting Him be 'deserving' of eternal torment?

Why shouldn't people deserve eternal torture? Really? I think this is a poor rationalization for the tens of billions of people who you believe will be suffering in pain worse than what they've ever experienced here on earth, forever, with no hope of escape or even death for it to be over. I shouldn't have to provide reasons for why human beings shouldn't be put through torture... But I would suppose the reasons are that human life is valuable, and that suffering is awful, pretty basic stuff.

Life on Earth is a high stakes situation. You can choose not to play, but living as if there is no God is the same as rejecting Him.

Here's something from my perspective... If there is a god, I don't know him, but I hope it's a god that appreciates people simply trying to live the best life they can and trying to benefit others along the way

 

[Crypto]

Here's something from my perspective... If there is a god, I don't know him, but I hope it's a god that appreciates people simply trying to live the best life they can and trying to benefit others along the way

There is a God, and He loves you and wants you to be in a relationship with Him by receiving by faith His Son Jesus Christ. You're a smart girl, I'll be praying that these discussions have provoked you to really think these things through. Can I recommend a couple books to you? The Case for Faith and the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. There is a whole chapter dedicated to objections to Hell in The Case for Faith (chapter 6).

 

[AnandaHya]

hell is a place without God's grace and decency to prevent people from fulfilling their basest lust and desires to harm others and themselves by their words and actions. it is the lack of love for another person. It is world where no one cares for another, where babies don't exist because noone would love enough to feed the child or mother. were all people do is look out for number one and greed runs rampant but there is no food for God gives rain and life to all things. without God there would be just a wasteland of starved and tortured souls. God does not DO anything to torture them except turn His face and allow them to destroy themselves and each other.

Before the return of Christ Earth will seem like Hell because the pits of Hell will be opened up and the demons will be allowed to torture anyone without the mark of the Lord upon their forehead.

It is not that God created evil but it is that the sinful world through their own choices refuse God's plan and chose instead to listen to their own selfish desires and whispering of demons. they are like cancerous cells on the body of the world. created to be part of the body but by not listening to the growth inhabiting factors they are now harmful and potentially deadly to the whole.

Hell is the lack of knowledge of God and it is also a place where all the lost souls are casted because they do not repent and turn back to God but curse Him all the more. Instead of repentant hearts they have anger ones full of pride and self righteousness.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

There is a God, and He loves you and wants you to be in a relationship with Him by receiving by faith His Son Jesus Christ. You're a smart girl, I'll be praying that these discussions have provoked you to really think these things through. Can I recommend a couple books to you? The Case for Faith and the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. There is a whole chapter dedicated to objections to Hell in The Case for Faith (chapter 6).

As this was my largest issue with the Christian faith, I read this material long ago when I still believed, hoping to strengthen the belief and find the answers to the questions regarding hell I could not answer. I cannot express how much I have thought about this particular issue, I was raised to believe it and it bothered me my whole life, I have studied. The book does not properly address the issues with hell, it simply glosses over many, misrepresents the reasons why hell is wrong, and provides broken counter arguments which are easily refuted, and nothing more. Needless to say, I found Strobel's book to dodge the reasons I could not believe in hell, not demolish them. If you would like I could link you an extremely thorough, point-by-point debunking of that chapter of the book.

 

[Crypto]

As this was my largest issue with the Christian faith, I read this material long ago when I still believed, hoping to strengthen the belief and find the answers to the questions regarding hell I could not answer. The book does not properly address the issues with hell, it simply glosses over many, misrepresents the reasons why hell is wrong, and provides broken counter arguments which are easily refuted, and nothing more. Needless to say, I found Strobel's book to dodge the reasons I could not believe in hell, not demolish them. If you would like I could link you an extremely thorough, point-by-point debunking of that chapter of the book.

Well, what type of answers were you (are you) looking for? Ultimately it comes down to a faith thing and a trust thing. One must by faith, trust that God knows what He is doing (and I'd also say a desire to really understand what God says about sin is important too--Romans 1-3). I could share with you a first hand testimony of my struggle to come to those conclusions, but I digress, and I'll just say God wants you to believe what He says, but He won't force it on you by any measure.

This is something I found, I doubt it will sway you, but it's worth a read in my opinion.

Is Punishment Eternal? | thebereancall.org

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

Well, what type of answers were you (are you) looking for? Ultimately it comes down to a faith thing and a trust thing. One must by faith, trust that God knows what He is doing (and I'd also say a desire to really understand what God says about sin is important too--Romans 1-3). I could share with you a first hand testimony of my struggle to come to those conclusions, but I digress, and I'll just say God wants you to believe what He says, but He won't force it on you by any measure.

This is just an admittance that it's faith and trust that are the difference between suffering eternal torture and enjoying eternal bliss. Faith and trust are not a fair basis to judge that someone deserves eternal torture, and ultimately, you're right, it comes down to faith and trust. God wants me to believe what he says, but he requires me to use faith to believe it, he doesn't actually have what he says make sense so I would believe them, he wants faith. I suppose this wouldn't be so bad of him, if he really weren't forcing it upon me, but let's be honest, condemning every person who does not believe to everlasting pain is a 'convert or die' situation, except worse.

I was looking for answers that would have justified god's creation of hell and condemnation of all people to it. Because hell just screams injustice and cruelty from every angle I look at it, there is no justification that logically holds up. Only faith could cause me to believe that hell is justified or warranted, and I cannot have such an incredible amount of faith when it comes to everlasting suffering, nor am I ashamed of my lack of said faith.

 

[Crypto]

This is just an admittance that it's faith and trust that are the difference between suffering eternal torture and enjoying eternal bliss. Faith and trust are not a fair basis to judge that someone deserves eternal torture, and ultimately, you're right, it comes down to faith and trust. God wants me to believe what he says, but he requires me to use faith to believe it, he doesn't actually have what he says make sense so I would believe them, he wants faith. I suppose this wouldn't be so bad of him, if he really weren't forcing it upon me, but let's be honest, condemning every person who does not believe to everlasting pain is a 'convert or die' situation, except worse.

Hell just screams injustice and cruelty from every angle I look at it, there is no justification that logically holds up. Only faith could cause me to believe that hell is justified or warranted, and I cannot have such an incredible amount of faith when it comes to such suffering, nor am I ashamed of my lack of said faith.

That goes back to what I said about the justice of God in regarding our sin. It would not be justice if God just glossed over all of the sin in the world without doing anything about it. Would you want Adolf Hitler or someone like that to get away with everything he did? Sin is a BIG deal, as much as our society tends to downplay it, it's big.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

That goes back to what I said about the justice of God in regarding our sin. It would not be justice if God just glossed over all of the sin in the world without doing anything about it. Would you want Adolf Hitler or someone like that to get away with everything he did? Sin is a BIG deal, as much as our society tends to downplay it, it's big.

You cannot justify hell with Adolf Hitler, is not Mohandas Gandhi suffering the same fate? Don't pretend as if people are sent to hell for being wicked, and that people are allowed into heaven for being good, it's simply not true. That being said, I would never advocate the torture of Adolf Hitler, hypothetically, if we had captured the man, I would not think it acceptable to apply such barbaric methods of punishment, even temporarily just here on Earth. Hitler spent 56 years on Earth, yet you think that trillions of years later, he'll still be suffering, why? This is still not justice.

Human suffering is a BIG deal, violating and hurting others is a BIG deal, hell does both of these things to a cosmically extreme degree, that's why I'm against it.

 

[Crypto]

You cannot justify hell with Adolf Hitler, is not Mohandas Gandhi suffering the same fate? Don't pretend as if people are sent to hell for being wicked, and that people are allowed into heaven for being good, it's simply not true. That being said, I would never advocate the torture of Adolf Hitler, hypothetically, if we had captured the man, I would not think it acceptable to apply such barbaric methods of punishment, even temporarily just here on Earth. Hitler spent 56 years on Earth, yet you think that trillions of years later, he'll still be suffering, why? This is still not justice.

Human suffering is a BIG deal, violating and hurting others is a BIG deal, hell does both of these things to a cosmically extreme degree, that's why I'm against it.

Which comes back to the point, hell has differing levels of punishment. I don't believe Hitler and Ghandi are suffering the same level of punishment in hell. The fact that eternity is on the line makes the way we live our lives here so important. We get one shot so we have to use it wisely.

 

[Laodicea]

Which comes back to the point, hell has differing levels of punishment. I don't believe Hitler and Ghandi are suffering the same level of punishment in hell. The fact that eternity is on the line makes the way we live our lives here so important. We get one shot so we have to use it wisely.

I agree that there is no second chances it is now or never
Joshua 24:15
(15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[shroom2]

Hell is the grave. The end result of the Lake of fire is death. Permanent death. God is love, there is no way He could subject people to eternal torment. What crime deserves -eternal- torment?

Even the devil himself will eventually be burned up. Ezekiel 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Laodicea]

Hell is the grave. The end result of the Lake of fire is death. Permanent death. God is love, there is no way He could subject people to eternal torment. What crime deserves -eternal- torment?

Even the devil himself will eventually be burned up. Ezekiel 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Amen brother I agree 100%

 

[Crypto]

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.--Revelation 20:10

 

[jimmydiggs]

I chose option one, would have prefered to chose more than one.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO3QO1vj_PU[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7n99WNb87M&NR=1[/video]

 

[Joshua175]

2 Peter 1:19-21 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

There is no private interpretation of any prophecy of scripture. Hell is a prophecy.

Mark 9:43-48 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

How many times did he say "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched"? It's kind of hard to miss interpret that. Even still the bible says that there is no private interpretation of biblical prophecy.

 

[shroom2]

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.--Revelation 20:10

It's the figure of speech hyperbole. It simply means a really long time. But as Ezekiel says, they will eventually burn up. Some will burn longer than others, but all will burn up.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

Quick refutation of Lee Strobel's apologetics for torturing people eternally...

"Hell is not a place where people are confined because they were pretty good blokes but they just didn't believe the right stuff."

Is he honestly saying that no one who goes to hell was a good person? Really? Are you kidding me? No one who isn't a Christian is a good person, I see Lee is off to a wonderful start. Not to mention he's wrong about the doctrine entirely, people are sent to hell for not believing "the right stuff" if they don't believe that Jesus was divine and paid for their sins and rose from the dead and repent to this Jesus, they go to hell, no matter who they were or what else they did, that is the doctrine.

"They're confined there because they defy their maker, and want to be at the center of the universe."

What about all the Muslims who press their face to the ground five times a day trying to humble themselves before Allah? Lee is just asserting once again, that everyone who isn't a Christian is self-centered, and thinks the world revolves around them, without backing it up one bit. In fact most atheists/agnostics believe that we're insignificant, that we're just on a speck of dust in a universe so large, that was not created for us. Christians believe the universe was created for humanity specifically, and that they'll live forever in heaven. I'm sorry Mr. Strobel, this is ridiculous.

"Hell isn't filled with people who have already repented, only god isn't gentle enough or good enough to let them out."

People are condemned to their fate from the moment they die on Earth. They don't get to go face to face with god, and see that they were wrong, and then change. Would the people burning in hell not desperately wish to be let out? Assuming it's true that they did deserve it, would they not repent over and over again as they writhe in pain? And god absolutely could have never created hell, or given a less cruel punishment, or could just let them out at any time, it's completely in his control. Lee, you're making no sense.

"It's filled with people who, for all eternity, still want to be at the center of the universe and persist in their god defying rebellion, what is god to do?"

I've already responded to his baseless assertion, so going to the end here... What is god to do? Well I'd start by not creating a torture chamber for everyone who doesn't follow him because they don't believe. Or maybe he could prove his existence to those who don't believe, or maybe he could judge people based on who they were instead of what they believed.

"For him to act in any other way in face of such blatant defiance, would be to reduce god himself."

Not only is it just lack of faith or many other factors, and many who go to hell were good people... How would showing more love reduce god?

This is ludicrous, Lee doesn't back up one word he says in this entire video, he states things and provides no reason for anyone to think they're true. This is pathetic, this is offensive, it blatantly insults everyone who is not a Christian, this kind of logic is unbecoming of any thinking individual or member of the civilized world. I'm embarrassed for Strobel.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Quick refutation of Lee Strobel's apologetics for torturing people eternally...

"Hell is not a place where people are confined because they were pretty good blokes but they just didn't believe the right stuff."

Is he honestly saying that no one who goes to hell was a good person? Really? Are you kidding me? No one who isn't a Christian is a good person, I see Lee is off to a wonderful start. Not to mention he's wrong about the doctrine entirely, people are sent to hell for not believing "the right stuff" if they don't believe that Jesus was divine and paid for their sins and rose from the dead and repent to this Jesus, they go to hell, no matter who they were or what else they did, that is the doctrine.

Strawman.


He said people go to hell because they don't believe the right stuff, not because they were criminals in a societal sense.

Also, by "don't believe the right stuff" I don't mean that in a manner that would indicate they just got bad evidence.

Not really interested in debating on all this, but I suspect that's where this will go.