Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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rogerg

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I see, so you just reject scripture in favor of your personal favorite doctrine.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9
To understand the above verse, you need to drill down into the Bible to find what "obey" and "obedience" actually mean - how the Bible uses them. As can be seen below, to obey, or to be obedient, are in relation to the faith and its truth, and received as a gift given by the Spirit. They are not as you seem to imply, that which first must be attained by an individual. To those who gain it, it was a gift .

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
[Rom 5:19 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood
of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[1Pe 1:22 KJV] 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
 

rogerg

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please read again:

Post #1 (due to size limitation)


Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
The point is not that Jesus and others of God set-forth spiritual wisdom, edicts and commands, because the Bible is replete with them.
The point is who will understand, take to heart and obey them? The answer is : only those whom God has elected to salvation. The others will not.

The folks Jesus was talking to understood this point because just before He told them they must deny [themselves], and take up [their] cross, He told them:

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


While it may not be evident to you, it was evident to those He spoke to because Peter responded:

Matthew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.


to which the Lord Jesus Christ replied:

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Ahhhh, no. From a spiritual standpoint, they didn't understand, hence 16:23

[Mar 9:31-32 KJV]
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

So when I heed the instruction of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is nothing of "self" which I bring to the equation. However, you claim that the faith God placed within mankind when He created, formed, made mankind ... you claim that faith is somehow a "work" which "is a belief that is produced in-and-of themselves". You are in error concerning this point.


I believe faith is inherent within all mankind from the time God created, formed, made mankind ... that when we hear truth and believe, our faith is strengthened.
Oh absolutely not, I make no such claim. The faith that is of Christ (Christ's faith), including His works and His righteousness, are imputed to those He saves, when He saves them, not before. That is how, for those so blessed, faith is NOT a work, because, and only because, it is a gift, but for all others, a work. The claim I make is that for true faith to be true faith, it MUST have works as central to, and built upon it, However, in its entirety it was achieved by Christ alone, and cannot be duplicated or mirrored by us. It is imputed solely as a gift to those whom God has chosen for such. Therefore, should we claim that faith was initiated from ourselves, then it would have to be the equal to the works and righteousness Christ produced, which is impossible. Anything that is not a gift is a work.
But, if it is your contention that everyone is born with saving faith, then everyone must have been born saved, because as Eph
2:8 informs, we are saved through faith, (but I believe by Christ's faith, not ours). So, if what you believe is that every one is born with saving faith that would mean we, through that faith, were given eternal life from the moment of birth, then somehow during our live we lost that which is eternal (is it possible to lose the eternal?) dying spiritually, It then becomes (according to you) somehow our responsibility to reacquire it, at which time we are again granted eternal spiritual life. Is that how you perceive it?

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

not exactly sure why you have such a problem with the faith issue. It is clear from Ephesians 2:9 that faith is not "works":

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
We are saved by Christ, aren't we? He is the Savior, isn't He? So then, the faith of Eph 2:8 MUST be Christ's faith if it is
what saves us. How can you perceive it any other way? That Christ's faith is imputed is the ONLY way that it is not a work.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Post #2 due to size limitation

God is the gift. With God comes His salvation, His works His faith.

Back in Post #1337, Post #1341, and Post #1342 we discussed Eph 2:8-9. In Post #1342, you indicated God gave you faith "as a gift". Then you waffled and claimed that "faith" as used throughout Scripture is "Christ's faith".


Please clarify. thank you.
Sure no problem - happy to do so. First, Christ IS God and God was manifested in Christ. Christ, as the kinsman
redeemer, was assigned (for lack of a better word) certain tasks (for lack of a better word) that Christ had to accomplish
for our salvation as the Elect. Please observe:

[Jhn 6:36-38 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

In order for Christ to have been successful it His mission, He had to be perfectly faithful in achieving the Father's requirements that were given to Him to achieve. By accomplishing those, Christ was perfectly faithful to the Father, and because of that faithfulness, those who the Father "giveth" Him become saved. Christ's ministry alone satisfied the Father's requirements by Christ's faith.

The faith of Christ that satisfied the Father's requirements, has within it, faith and also works, and righteousness. The faith of Christ is imputed (gifted) freely to the Elect as though it was by them, and their sin had been imputed to Christ.

Please provide the verse which indicates faith is imputed to mankind.
Christ's faith is NOT imputed to mankind. It is imputed only to the Elect. Again, Christ's faith was NOT imputed to mankind.
These verses explain it but you seem to have a problem with either understanding and/or accepting them.
In Gal 2:16, if there was not by the "faith of Christ", then there couldn't be a "faith in Christ" . There must have been the first, to bring the second.

[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And please do not use Gal 5:22 (fruit of the Spirit faith) or 1 Cor 12:9 (manifestation of the Spirit faith) as I do not believe unbelievers partake of fruit of the Spirit or manifestation of the Spirit. Only those who are born again are able to partake of Gal 5:22 and 1 Cor 12:9.
I agree with you in this. I never said the fruit of the Spirt were for mankind in general, just the opposite in fact. I say it is only for those who become born again by the Spirit, which are only of the Elect.


Please read with comprehension. I have maintained that faith has been given by God to all mankind.

I think the mistake you make is that you have a preconceived notion as to what others believe and instead of reading with comprehension what people have written concerning their understanding, you project your preconceived notion. In other words, you do not "hear" what people have indicated through their writing.
To the contrary, I understand your point precisely, I just completely disagree it. No one of themselves can have true faith unless it is
Again, when God formed, made, created mankind, faith was part of the package ... just as intellect, emotions, senses, etc., etc. All is of God. When we mis-utilize that which God has given, that is "self". When we deny self, and take up our cross, "self" does not get in the way. We crucify self and the faith which God gave to all mankind is utilized just as God intended. All is of God.
Where do you find in the Bible that "faith was part of the package"? I have never found any such verse.
Please see my reply above regarding everyone having been born with faith.

Faith is a gift. If a gift, then it couldn't have been present since before being given: when God created mankind. Grace and
faith are received when God, through the Holy Spirit, indwells someone, not before. How could it then be before
becoming saved by faith?

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

How many times do I have to tell you that faith is "of God" before you understand that I believe faith is "of God"???
I think you're being misleading. You say that faith is of God, but you believe it was to all mankind when He formed mankind,
but, if man goes astray they have to reacquire it of themselves, right? So, if you believe it has to be reacquired, then it is of man, isn't it? If you believe otherwise, please let me know that. If you can provide confirmation of your doctrine from within the Bible please post it.
 

rogerg

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Back in Post #1337, Post #1341, and Post #1342 we discussed Eph 2:8-9. In Post #1342, you indicated God gave you faith "as a gift". Then you waffled and claimed that "faith" as used throughout Scripture is "Christ's faith".
I've been thinking more about my prior reply and wanted to clarify it a little. When the Bible uses the word faith in regards to salvation or becoming saved, it has Christ's faith (faith OF Christ) in view, which is given freely as a gift to the elect at a time of God's choosing. In addition to His faith, those saved by Him are spiritually removed from under the law of sin and death, and placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Whereby are they made safe from law and from its eternal judgment.
After becoming born-again, and through the Holy Spirit, the elect are given faith IN Christ as a gift. But, faith IN Christ is not the faith that brings salvation. Instead, it is a fruit of the Spirit given to those born-again.

Please observe:
[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Christ alone is Savior, we are not.
 
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The one who does not believe. The wrath of God remains on him.

You are intent on insisting obedience retains Salvation. That's false Arminianism . Which teaches Salvation can be lost if we don't continue to labor to retain our Salvation.

That makes Jesus a liar.
When in truth Arminianism is the propagation of false doctrine.

No one will ever reason with proper exegesis the devout Arminian, Semi-Pelagian, away from their commitment to false doctrine.

Instead I find it best to leave them in their sense of eternal insecurity in their holding faith in Jacobus Arminius .

I see, so you just reject scripture in favor of your personal favorite doctrine.
 
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Because God called us to receive His free irrevocable gift of faith

Faith comes by hearing God speak His word.


His word must be obeyed for faith to produce salvation, healing or whatever He intends to accomplish in a persons life.



By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:8


This is where Abraham obeyed the Gospel and began his life of faith with the Lord.






JPT
 
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So, do you believe that Paul gave the jailer a false gospel when his answer to what the jailer MUST DO was "believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"?
Believe in the original means obey.


If a person believes but doesn’t obey the Lord, then there believing is just as useless as demons believing in God, but continuing to obey Satan.



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17
 
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To understand the above verse, you need to drill down into the Bible to find what "obey" and "obedience" actually mean

To understand what believe means you must stud the Bible.



He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV



He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB




If a person believes but doesn’t obey the Lord, then there believing is just as useless as demons believing in God, but continuing to obey Satan.




Eternal Salvation is given to those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord.




And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9






JPT
 

rogerg

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He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV



He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB
But no one can believe unless that belief is given to them by God as a gift, so consequently, no one of themselves is able to believe or obey
 
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But no one can believe unless that belief is given to them by God as a gift, so consequently, no one of themselves is able to believe or obey
This Calvinist talking point cannot be found in Scripture. They just made it up.

Believing comes from the heart, per Rom 10:10. No verse says that belief comes from God.

What DOES come from God is God's very Word, the Bible. That is our "faith". It's a noun. Believing is a verb.

The gift is a noun. Believing what the gift (God's Word) says comes from the heart.

The real issue is trust. Do you trust who God is and what God says? That's believing.
 
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The point is who will understand, take to heart and obey them? The answer is : only those whom God has elected to salvation. The others will not.
I understand that is your point.




rogerg said:
reneweddaybyday said:
The folks Jesus was talking to understood this point because just before He told them they must deny [themselves], and take up [their] cross, He told them ...
Ahhhh, no. From a spiritual standpoint, they didn't understand, hence 16:23

[Mar 9:31-32 KJV]
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
Read the record in Mark 8:31-34


Mark 8:

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.


The record in Mark 8 is the same record as Matt 16 and Luke 9.

In Mark 9, Jesus was speaking to a different group of folks than in Mark 8, Matt 16, Luke 9.




rogerg said:
That is how, for those so blessed, faith is NOT a work, because, and only because, it is a gift, but for all others, a work.
:rolleyes:





rogerg said:
So, if what you believe is that every one is born with saving faith that would mean we, through that faith, were given eternal life from the moment of birth, then somehow during our live we lost that which is eternal (is it possible to lose the eternal?) dying spiritually, It then becomes (according to you) somehow our responsibility to reacquire it, at which time we are again granted eternal spiritual life. Is that how you perceive it?
Again, I believe everyone has faith (noun) and faith (noun) results in believing (verb). Just as everyone has intellect (noun) which results in thinking (verb).

When truth is revealed to "whosoever" and "whosoever" believes that truth, God then works within "whosoever" to increase faith concerning that truth.

Even unbelievers believe some of God's truth (example: most people believe that murder is wrong ... same with stealing ... lying ... etc., etc.). So an unbeliever may believe truth recorded in Scripture, and also remain without eternal life.




rogerg said:
... should we claim that faith was initiated from ourselves ...
I believe all who have posted in this thread are in agreement that God is the One Who gives faith to mankind ... and for you to continue to state the above claim is nothing but straw man on your part.




rogerg said:
Eph
2:8 informs, we are saved through faith, (but I believe by Christ's faith, not ours). So, if what you believe is that every one is born with saving faith that would mean we, through that faith, were given eternal life from the moment of birth, then somehow during our live we lost that which is eternal (is it possible to lose the eternal?) dying spiritually, It then becomes (according to you) somehow our responsibility to reacquire it, at which time we are again granted eternal spiritual life. Is that how you perceive it?
Ephesians 4:5 tells us there is one faith. What you refer to as "saving" faith is the same faith as faith that does not result in salvation.

Example: I believe what is written in Genesis 37 concerning Joseph being sold by his brothers to some ishmaelite merchantmen. My believing this truth in Scripture does not result in salvation. However, the faith (noun) which is properly utilized in believing (verb) this truth is the same faith (noun) which results in salvation when the gospel of Christ is believed (verb) for it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom 1:16).

There is only one faith. There are many truths in God's Word and we believe (verb) these truths through faith (noun) God placed within mankind. However, there is only one Truth which must be believed (verb) through faith (noun) which results in salvation.




rogerg said:
So then, the faith of Eph 2:8 MUST be Christ's faith if it is
what saves us.
God's Word tells us we are saved by grace through faith


Romans 10:17 So then faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




rogerg said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God is the gift.
salvation is the gift.




rogerg said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Back in Post #1337, Post #1341, and Post #1342 we discussed Eph 2:8-9. In Post #1342, you indicated God gave you faith "as a gift". Then you waffled and claimed that "faith" as used throughout Scripture is "Christ's faith".

Please clarify. thank you.
Sure no problem - happy to do so.
Your explanation did not answer my question. And I am tired of your avoidance of a simple "yes" or "no" as to whether you have faith.

As a result, I will stick with what I submitted in Post #1,499




rogerg said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Please read with comprehension. I have maintained that faith has been given by God to all mankind.

I think the mistake you make is that you have a preconceived notion as to what others believe and instead of reading with comprehension what people have written concerning their understanding, you project your preconceived notion. In other words, you do not "hear" what people have indicated through their writing.
To the contrary, I understand your point precisely, I just completely disagree it. No one of themselves can have true faith unless it is
Then just state you disagree instead of claiming I (and/or others) have stated something never asserted by me (and/or them).




rogerg said:
Faith is a gift.
Everything in mankind is a "gift". Faith, intellect, emotions, senses, all abilities and capabilities, etc., etc.

As thinking is to intellect ... so love is to emotions ... so smell is to senses ... so believing is to faith.

God is the One Who made mankind and He placed within mankind that which was necessary in order for mankind to believe.

You don't agree? okey-dokey




rogerg said:
I think you're being misleading. You say that faith is of God, but you believe it was to all mankind when He formed mankind,
but, if man goes astray they have to reacquire it of themselves, right?
You are again projecting your preconceived notion ...




rogerg said:
So, if you believe it has to be reacquired, then it is of man, isn't it?
why would faith have to be "reacquired"? do you have to "reacquire" your intellect if/when you make a mistake? do you have to "reacquire" your emotions when you react improperly in any given situation?



 
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FreeGrace2 said:
So, do you believe that Paul gave the jailer a false gospel when his answer to what the jailer MUST DO was "believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"?

No it doesn't. It means believe, accept, trust.


You are wrong again.


Biblical believing requires the action of obedience.

If you believe what Jesus says says but don’t obey it, then your “believing” is useless, like demons who believe in God, but continue to serve Satan.


  • He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

  • He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



Your hyper grace doctrine is not from God and is leading people astray.





JPT
 
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But no one can believe unless that belief is given to them by God as a gift, so consequently, no one of themselves is able to believe or obey


Please present the scripture that says “no one can believe unless that belief is given to them by God as a gift”
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
So, do you believe that Paul gave the jailer a false gospel when his answer to what the jailer MUST DO was "believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"?

No it doesn't. It means believe, accept, trust.
Nope. I have the Greek word definition on my side.

Biblical believing requires the action of obedience.
Prove this "requirement".

If you believe what Jesus says says but don’t obey it, then your “believing” is useless, like demons who believe in God, but continue to serve Satan.
Please don't abuse James 2:19. All James was saying in that verse was that demons (fallen angels) believe (KNOW) that God is One.

They KNOW (believe) that because when they were created by God, they experienced that fact.

What the demons believe in 2:19 has NOTHING to do with saving faith.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV
What is your point here? Those who believe possess eternal life (John 5:24) and shall never perish (John 10:28).

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB
OK, different translation. So what? The Greek word is 'apietho' and means to 'disbelieve'.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9
When the entirety of Scripture is considered, this verse refers to what Jesus said in John 3:15,16 and 14:6.

Your hyper grace doctrine is not from God and is leading people astray.
You just gave yourself away with your attempted perjorative words "hyper grace".

There is NO SUCH THING. God's grace is greater than all. If that's what you call "hyper" then your problem is with God Himself. Take it up with Him.

James 4:6 -
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

2 Peter 1:2 - Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Those who use the term "hyper grace" only demonstrate that they are actually ANTI-grace. As if God's grace only goes so far.

Pitiful.
 

rogerg

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Please present the scripture that says “no one can believe unless that belief is given to them by God as a gift”
[1Pe 21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Mat 13:11 KJV] 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
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Please present the scripture that says “no one can believe unless that belief is given to them by God as a gift”
A fair reference request. If we dive deeper into the parables such as the wheat vs. tares and sheep vs. goats, we see this concept of "spiritual species" where the tares or goats are incapable of producing spiritual fruit unto salvation despite outwardly seeming similar or the same as their saved counterpart.

We also see a wider mercy when Jesus says that the Father could raise the very rocks into children of Abraham unto that promise of salvation. That is an indication of transmutation of spiritual species where the gift of salvation and true belief can be bestowed to those that would not otherwise have it.
 

rogerg

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Biblical believing requires the action of obedience.

If you believe what Jesus says says but don’t obey it, then your “believing” is useless, like demons who believe in God, but continue to serve Satan.
If that were true, then we become responsible for saving ourselves. thus making ourselves our own savior.
What can make someone change from non-believing to believing? Can someone make themselves believe
something they just don't believe in?

What I'm saying is only this: Christ alone is Savior -- He must be the one who saves.

Anything pertaining to salvation that does not come to us (solely) as a gift, is a work because we would have to do
something to acquire it - which is impossible. There is no other alternative.
 
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What can make someone change from non-believing to believing? Can someone make themselves believe something they just don't believe in?
Believing, like ALL thoughts of the mind (heart) come from within. Rom 10:10 says that man believes from his his own heart.

What I'm saying is only this: Christ alone is Savior -- He must be the one who saves.
And He does. He gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe. Those who trust in Christ's saving work receive this free gift.

Believing what Jesus say doesn't make man "his own savior". That is a demonic lie.

Anything pertaining to salvation that does not come to us (solely) as a gift, is a work because we would have to do
something to acquire it - which is impossible. There is no other alternative.
What you fail to comprehend is that believing or faith isn't a work. Paul's answer to the jailer explains it all very clearly-- believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE saved.

Based on that, do you think the jailer became his own savior?