Misconceptions

[Vindicator]

Another group of teachers teaching extra-Biblical false doctrine. I agree, they weren't that different from modern-day Pentecostals in this regard.

Resident Alien, I think you are too judgmental, and not just of Pentecostals. I believe I read a few of your posts where you were using the word "idiot" in describing others you disagreed with, and this is not of God. When used in derision, the use of such words is a sign of a contemptuous spirit. Be careful about condemning those who do not hold to the same doctrinal views as yourself. Scripture says we will all be held accountable for every word we speak, and using a word like "idiot" contemptuously borders on describing them as "fools," which the Lord warned about doing (Matthew 5:21-22)

How about if you explain why you hold Pentecostals and Charismatics in such contempt? Where is all this coming from? Did something happen in your life personally that you were negatively effected by them?

God bless,
Vindicator

 

[iTheophilus]

@Laura798

I agree about grace. But we don't have to choose one or the other. Grace is one thing and gifts are another. The point of this thread is 'Have the gifts ceased?' I take the position that they have not and the reasons we don't see them manifest is simply because we have been taught they have ceased. We need these gifts to be a fully alive church. Grace is how we receive God's gift of salvation, but to be a true church operating in the power of the Holy Spirit gifts should be manifested.

Also grace is defined as 'God's divine favor'--this is something bestowed upon us by God--we do not extend this grace. Love for God and our fellow man and the church as you say are what God requires of us, but it is different than the grace that He gives us.

As Evmur noted our Western Churches for the most part are dead. And I believe it is because we do not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit--scripture teaches us we must believe--if we don't believe and don't pray for the gifts then of course they cannot manifest.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

- 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV)

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

- 1 Corinthians 13 (KJV)

Laura, what would you say is “a more excellent way?”

 

[Laura798]

Greetings Laura, and blessings in Christ.

I'm not positive that being an eyewitness to His resurrection is an absolute requirement. And I think he asks a pertinent question in the following:

We know additional apostles besides these men exist because Christ, after His ascension, appointed “some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13). Are we there yet? Have we all attained to the unity of the faith? Or mature manhood? Or the fullness of Christ? Clearly, the apostolic ministry will continue until Christ returns!

I think the church, i.e. the true Spirit-filled church, is eventually going to arrive at this place one day. I think the end-times will bring severe trials, sufferings and persecutions, and these will help purify the church from the corruptions we see today, and cause her to led into ever-increasing intimacy with the Lord. Through this process, many false doctrines and interpretations that have divided the church and still keep her divided will be burned away, and through the returning ministry of the Holy Spirit Himself through Divine utterance and the prophetic gifts, the church will finally arrive at this place of possessing a true unity of the faith in Christ. As scriptures says, by the time He is returning, the church will have "made herself ready" (Revelation 19:7), and scripture implies elsewhere that this will be when she has become fully purified and "clothed in white." Paul said this was in fact his purpose (and by extension the purpose of the prophets, apostles, teachers, pastors, evangelists etc):

To the Corinthians:
2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2-3)

To the Ephesians:
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Paul referred to this as a "profound mystery" because the analogy suggested there existed the potential to become completely purified in Him and "one flesh" with Him, if His Spirit so fully embodied us that we manifested His purity and power in every way. This what Paul was desiring in telling the Galatians he wanted to present them to Christ as a "pure virgin." Revelation 19:8 suggests the church will one day finally get there, for the "white garments" she will be clothed in will be the righteousness of the saints:

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8 NKJV).

Hi Vindicator,

After some study I do believe that the apostles here are referring to the eyewitnesses sent out by Christ before His ascension. There are several commentaries you can read here: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/4-11.htm

Here is a brief excerpt of one of them:

Benson Commentary
Ephesians 4:11. Among other his free gifts; he gave some, apostles — His chief ministers and special witnesses, as having seen him after his resurrection, and received their commission immediately from him. The office of an apostle was to declare, in an infallible manner, the whole gospel doctrine: to qualify them for which they were endowed with the plenary and most abundant inspiration of the Holy Spirit, imparting to them a perfect knowledge of all those truths and mysteries which they were to publish to the world.


I left a church eight years ago after discovering their history and doctrine--sadly most if not all churches say we just need to agree on the fundamentals, all the rest doesn't matter. After I left that church I began visiting other churches, while at the same time studying denominations--it was a domino effect. Every single denomination without exception has some false teaching. And most even when given irrefutable evidence that what they believe can't be supported by scripture tenaciously hold on to their false doctrine. I would say nearly all churches I visited were dead--you can feel it--just like you feel a cold wind.

I meet so many Christians who have been going to church for years who do not know the foundational truths of scripture and live like the world--the non-denoms motto is "we're all broken" it's all about grace, we'ere not under the law"--and they just sit back with their bag of popcorn or latte and watch the show--the same show that is showing at the church down the street--and the churches in the next town. Same music, same script--same deadness. The church has become a business--and that is a whole other story....the reason I no longer attend church.

I do believe we are in the falling away--our world is like it was when the flood came--only this time the whole shebang will be destroyed. Thankfully, we will have a new heavens and a new earth, "Where righteousness dwells."

According to 2 Timothy 3:13, "Evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” Matthew 24:6-7 tell us that "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

"10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."--Matthew 24:10-13

 

[Vindicator]

Laura, what would you say is “a more excellent way?”

Hello Theophilus. This is Hidden In Him (My name was taken over here already, so I improvised, Lol)

Long time since I've spoken to you. Hope you are well. I know this wasn't directed to me, but it's an interesting question, so let me give you my answer as food for thought:

Technically, the Greek reads "I will show you a way according to excellence." There is no comparative in the Greek, but the implication is that there is a way of doing things here that is truly excellent, and by that I believe he was talking about operating in the gifts in an excellent way, and that is through love. If we desire just to operate in gifts for the sake of doing so, we can get into errors like the Corinthians were doing, where they were just speaking in tongues indiscriminately without providing interpretation on what the Spirit was saying to anyone. But if you are motivated by love, then your use of the gifts is specifically for the sake of ministering to others, and when this is your motivation the Lord is more inclined to use you. Hence it is a "way" according to true excellence.

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798



Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

- 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV)

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

- 1 Corinthians 13 (KJV)

Laura, what would you say is “a more excellent way?”

I guess you missed my point--yes I know Love comes first, but again I'm simply saying spiritual gifts haven't ceased, since that is what the forum is about--no one is saying they are more important than love, certainly not me. PS btw, they vanish at the end of the age, not now--we will have no need of them when Christ comes, but love will remain.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Here are the 25 Apostles mentioned in the New Testament--note again that Christ had sent out 70--all apostles, just not part of the 12, who represented the 12 tribes of Israel.

You are trying to make God a liar. That is a very dangerous path, but this is not the first time that you are doing this. The Bible does NOT call the seventy "apostles". It simply says "other seventy". But the Bible definitely calls the twelve "apostles" and Paul spoke of "the signs of an apostle". There are only TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. Period.

 

[Vindicator]

Every single denomination without exception has some false teaching.

Yes, they do unfortunately. It's why I just try to appreciate denominations for the good they teach, and try not to reject any. I think God can still use anyone in something, although for most of the denominational world things seem to be getting worse rather than better.

I do believe we are in the falling away--our world is like it was when the flood came--only this time the whole shebang will be destroyed. Thankfully, we will have a new heavens and a new earth, "Where righteousness dwells."

According to 2 Timothy 3:13, "Evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” Matthew 24:6-7 tell us that "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

"10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."--Matthew 24:10-13

I would say stay hopeful. I believe what's going to happen is that the church is going to be whittled down to a remnant (i.e. a relative few compared to what we have today) in the next few decades, because Christianity will be held in increasing derision by the world, driven by the kingdom of darkness to do so. This will separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, but of necessity, because too many Christians today are misrepresenting God in one way or another. Yet this relative few who stand their ground and refuse to knuckle under to the opposition of the times but continue to preach true Christianity in the face of great hatred and even persecution will eventually have the Spirit poured out upon them in great measure, and will perform signs and wonders unprecedented in the history of man which will begin the true end-time harvest as prophesied by our Lord.

Not sure if you subscribe to that theory or not, but I thought I'd at least share that there are prophecies to the effect that things end up in a much better state than what we are seeing at present.

Btw, sorry about the errors in my previous post. I don't always check, and this site apparently gives you all of about three minutes to try and go fix things, Lol.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, God said that to Paul, no He did not make it clear when and no, those gifts have NOT ceased.

Really? Kindly send us all a list of the GENUINE apostles and prophets which are in the world today. And if you are unable to do so, then have the grace to say that those spiritual gifts have ceased. Self-deception helps no one.

 

[Vindicator]

You are trying to make God a liar. That is a very dangerous path, but this is not the first time that you are doing this. The Bible does NOT call the seventy "apostles". It simply says "other seventy". But the Bible definitely calls the twelve "apostles" and Paul spoke of "the signs of an apostle". There are only TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. Period.

No she isn't, LoL.

Relax, Nehemiah. You are stressing out when this should be a polite discussion over scripture. Speaking of which, why are you ignoring the scriptural references that have been made in several posts already about how there were clearly more than twelve?

1 For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain. 2 But even after we had suffered before and were spitefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we were bold in our God to speak to you the gospel of God in much conflict. 3 For our exhortation did not come from error or uncleanness, nor was it in deceit. 4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts. 5 For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness. 6 Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ. (1 Thessalonians 2:1-6)

Now who is he speaking about in these verses?

 

[Laura798]

You are trying to make God a liar. That is a very dangerous path, but this is not the first time that you are doing this. The Bible does NOT call the seventy "apostles". It simply says "other seventy". But the Bible definitely calls the twelve "apostles" and Paul spoke of "the signs of an apostle". There are only TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. Period.

You are trying to make God a liar. That is a very dangerous path, but this is not the first time that you are doing this. The Bible does NOT call the seventy "apostles". It simply says "other seventy". But the Bible definitely calls the twelve "apostles" and Paul spoke of "the signs of an apostle". There are only TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. Period.

There were at least 70 apostles according to Luke and that includes the 12--the 12 are the apostles who represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Apostles were eyewitnesses to Christ resurrection and sent out by Christ HIMSELF.

You said: "A very dangerous path and... this is "not the first time I am doing this." Do you realize how arrogant that sounds? You say it simply because you believe you are RIGHT and I am WRONG. One thing I've discovered on this forum is the more knowledgeable a person is regarding scripture, the more humble and Christlike--the less knowledgeable, the more arrogant and rude. Also, they are often speaking from their own opinions vs supporting it with scripture.

This strange 'The Great and Mighty Oz' behavior really is off putting. If you had studied it before responding you would now have your tail between your legs for saying I am calling God a liar.

 

[Nehemiah6]

However we have Paul speaking to the church in Corinth regarding spiritual gifts given to believers as well.

Did you see me denying that spiritual gifts were given to believers? I said that signs, wonders and miracles were given to the apostles. And here is the evidence:

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:3,4).

I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12:11,12)

"Signs, wonders, and divers miracles" are the same as "signs, wonders, and mighty deeds". And the context makes it perfectly clear that Paul is telling us that he was not inferior to any of the other apostles in these spiritual gifts. But later on we see that Paul could not use these gifts in certain situations.

 

[Nehemiah6]

6 Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ. (1 Thessalonians 2:1-6) Now who is he speaking about in these verses?

How does this nullify the fact that there were only twelve apostles, Paul being one of them?

 

[Vindicator]

How does this nullify the fact that there were only twelve apostles, Paul being one of them?

Answer the question and I will tell you. Who specifically was Paul referring to in that passage?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Also, they are often speaking from their own opinions vs supporting it with scripture.

Looks like you are the one spouting opinions with 70 apostles, 25 apostles, etc. (1) the seventy are NOT called apostles and (2) more significantly the twelve foundations of the wall of New Jerusalem have only the twelve apostles of the Lamb written therein. That should be enough for all the naysayers.

 

[Vindicator]

This strange 'The Great and Mighty Oz' behavior really is off putting. If you had studied it before responding you would now have your tail between your legs for saying I am calling God a liar.

If I could initiate a conversation with you I would, but don't let that kind of post bother you. Sometimes people just get way too wound up in their doctrinal positions, and get too heavy-handed in the process.

 

[tourist]

How does this nullify the fact that there were only twelve apostles, Paul being one of them?

If the other 12 were still alive the total including Paul would be 13. Does it state somewhere the total who were still alive by the time Paul became an apostle?

 

[Laura798]

Looks like you are the one spouting opinions with 70 apostles, 25 apostles, etc. (1) the seventy are NOT called apostles and (2) more significantly the twelve foundations of the wall of New Jerusalem have only the twelve apostles of the Lamb written therein. That should be enough for all the naysayers.

Looks like you are the one spouting opinions with 70 apostles, 25 apostles, etc. (1) the seventy are NOT called apostles and (2) more significantly the twelve foundations of the wall of New Jerusalem have only the twelve apostles of the Lamb written therein. That should be enough for all the naysayers.

Spouting off opinions? How so when what I've written is supported by scripture (and I always support my position with Scripture).

Read ALL of Matthew Chapter 9 and 10--these chapters go together--the bible was divided into chapters and verses much later--Matthew and all the rest of the epistles were NOT written with chapters and verses.

I see my numbers are off 12+72 = 84 Apostles!

Matthew Chapter Nine

When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.3 He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5 If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 6 So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.

Matthew Chapter 10

"AFTER THIS A the Lord appointed seventy-two OTHERS and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road. 5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you."

 

[Laura798]

If I could initiate a conversation with you I would, but don't let that kind of post bother you. Sometimes people just get way too wound up in their doctrinal positions, and get too heavy-handed in the process.

Thank you, Vindicator--if my outsides looked like my insides right now, I'd say your avatar would be just about right--except my hair would be a little longer and my sword would be up!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Answer the question and I will tell you. Who specifically was Paul referring to in that passage?

He is specifically referring to the other eleven apostles. And here is another Scripture to confirm that: Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? (1 Cor 9:5)

Paul here distinguishes between (a) the other apostles and (b) the brethren of the Lord (who were all faithful disciples of Christ at this time). He could have lumped them in with the apostles but did not do so. Why? Because of Luke 6:13-16: And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

We know that the traitor Judas Iscariot was removed from his apostleship and Paul was the 12th. But what is extremely significant is that out of all His disciples, Jesus chose just those twelve men. And that is why they are called "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" Matthew's list is only slightly different, and calls Judas the brother of James "Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus" .

 

[Vindicator]

Thank you, Vindicator--if my outsides looked like my insides right now, I'd say your avatar would be just about right--except my hair would be a little longer and my sword would be up!

View attachment 233259

Thanks for the laugh, LoL. With that, I do believe I will check out for awhile. Always good to end on a positive note : )

P.S. If it gets bad enough, you can always change your avatar, LoL.