Were the New Testament people that the Apostles taught really real?

[AworkINprogress]

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

I would like all of us to think about this question carefully. I know that some here have hot fingers ready to answer anything before a post is fully read, but I would like for anyone who is a true berean to think about this question.

Our first reaction from the mind, of course, would be yes. But when we teach end time prophecy from what we believe in our hearts, we really don’t.

The book of Revelation for example is an Old Testament book. Daniel wanted to know the contents of that book but the Angel told him to seal it up, “Until the time of the end”.

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind. We are at the Tower of Babel when everyone needs to find each other who speaks the same language.

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

So, when the seal was broken to finally see what Daniel longed to know, and the Angel stating that it was to be sealed until the time of the end, this is what was said of that book, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS……..”.

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words? Now remember, this thread is talking about people who we do not consider real. So, you are not a real person reading this in your day, 2000 years ago.

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

These not real brothers and sisters could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?” Didn‘t the document read at the end of the book, “Behold, I come quickly”. I wonder what “quickly” means to God? I remember when Peter was here the last time, he mentioned something about “shortly putting off his tabernacle“, I wonder if the same “shortly” he used is the same “shortly”” that is used at the beginning of the book? If I only knew greek, that might help with my child like faith. Wait a minute, John says it again in Revelation 22:6, ”must shortly comes to pass”. Oh God, why are you screwing with our minds? We were taught that the Anti Christ was coming and even now is IT in the world, and now you are telling us it’s off in the future for another group of people, why didn’t you open the seals in that generation? Why confuse us Father, you are not the author of confusion. We must not matter to You.”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

 

[Dino246]

It seems to me that you have a point, and I think it is correct, but you're rambling and obfuscating your point by wrapping it in silly notions of "real" versus "unreal" persons.

Maybe try stating your point simply and concisely.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind.

I can sort of see what you're saying here- because, in general, people don't like to be compartmentalized. At the same time, it's much easier for someone to say "Hi, I'm a Calvinist/Baptist/oneness pentecostal/Orthodox whatever" than to actually sit there and explain every single doctrine they adhere to. It's more of a convenience thing. But, like you said, not everyone needs to be shoved into one of those boxes.

The rest, on the other hand... I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like you are arguing against a futurist interpretation of Revelation, on the basis that it would somehow hurt the feelings of first century saints if they didn't live through every single thing that was written in Revelation. That seems like a very strange position to take. As a futurist, I feel pretty comfortable with the fact that what is perceived as a very long time to me, is not necessarily a long time for God. It doesn't really make a difference what time period you lived in- the message is the same.

The breakdown of the seven churches in the opening chapters- those, I think, were for Saints of the past- but like any scripture, useful for saints of the future. The rest of Revelation is meant to encourage those churches, and every church that reads it. It doesn't really matter when the final victory happens, the point is that it happens- so be strong and faithful in and out of persecution.

 

[Blik]

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

I would like all of us to think about this question carefully. I know that some here have hot fingers ready to answer anything before a post is fully read, but I would like for anyone who is a true berean to think about this question.

Our first reaction from the mind, of course, would be yes. But when we teach end time prophecy from what we believe in our hearts, we really don’t.

The book of Revelation for example is an Old Testament book. Daniel wanted to know the contents of that book but the Angel told him to seal it up, “Until the time of the end”.

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind. We are at the Tower of Babel when everyone needs to find each other who speaks the same language.

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

So, when the seal was broken to finally see what Daniel longed to know, and the Angel stating that it was to be sealed until the time of the end, this is what was said of that book, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS……..”.

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words? Now remember, this thread is talking about people who we do not consider real. So, you are not a real person reading this in your day, 2000 years ago.

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

These not real brothers and sisters could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?” Didn‘t the document read at the end of the book, “Behold, I come quickly”. I wonder what “quickly” means to God? I remember when Peter was here the last time, he mentioned something about “shortly putting off his tabernacle“, I wonder if the same “shortly” he used is the same “shortly”” that is used at the beginning of the book? If I only knew greek, that might help with my child like faith. Wait a minute, John says it again in Revelation 22:6, ”must shortly comes to pass”. Oh God, why are you screwing with our minds? We were taught that the Anti Christ was coming and even now is IT in the world, and now you are telling us it’s off in the future for another group of people, why didn’t you open the seals in that generation? Why confuse us Father, you are not the author of confusion. We must not matter to You.”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

I would like all of us to think about this question carefully. I know that some here have hot fingers ready to answer anything before a post is fully read, but I would like for anyone who is a true berean to think about this question.

Our first reaction from the mind, of course, would be yes. But when we teach end time prophecy from what we believe in our hearts, we really don’t.

The book of Revelation for example is an Old Testament book. Daniel wanted to know the contents of that book but the Angel told him to seal it up, “Until the time of the end”.

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind. We are at the Tower of Babel when everyone needs to find each other who speaks the same language.

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

So, when the seal was broken to finally see what Daniel longed to know, and the Angel stating that it was to be sealed until the time of the end, this is what was said of that book, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS……..”.

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words? Now remember, this thread is talking about people who we do not consider real. So, you are not a real person reading this in your day, 2000 years ago.

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

These not real brothers and sisters could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?” Didn‘t the document read at the end of the book, “Behold, I come quickly”. I wonder what “quickly” means to God? I remember when Peter was here the last time, he mentioned something about “shortly putting off his tabernacle“, I wonder if the same “shortly” he used is the same “shortly”” that is used at the beginning of the book? If I only knew greek, that might help with my child like faith. Wait a minute, John says it again in Revelation 22:6, ”must shortly comes to pass”. Oh God, why are you screwing with our minds? We were taught that the Anti Christ was coming and even now is IT in the world, and now you are telling us it’s off in the future for another group of people, why didn’t you open the seals in that generation? Why confuse us Father, you are not the author of confusion. We must not matter to You.”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

To learn how the people of the first church thought we need a study of the first church fathers such as Origen, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Papias.

I don't know for sure, but I doubt that a study of Revelation was vital to their understanding of God. They were familiar with the three fall feasts God asked to be celebrated, those feasts tell is in plain words what the last days will be like.

The book of Revelations wraps its information so thoroughly into symbolic language that can be played out in different ways of the material world that we cannot know exactly how the Lord will make it all happen. Trying to solve it is foolishness.

 

[p_rehbein]

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

When you say "we do not believe" who are the "we?" I believe that many of the people "took it to heart." Elsewise, there would not have been so many converts to the Christian Faith.

As for their peing people that didn't matter........matter to who? They matter to me, for some of them are our Founding Fathers of the Faith, and they surely matter to God....

1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Methinks your OP is a whimsical review, and that is ok I suppose. However, you would do well to remember that History is a "recording of past KNOWN events." The future is the "unknown territory." I seriously doubt that the peoples back then gave much thought to some "distant futuristic peoples."

 

[Lanolin]

?

sorry you lost me.

John was obviously writing to people, not people in his imagination.

 

[crossnote]

@AworkINprogress What leads you to believe the New Testament people the Apostles taught were not real?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

If those people in the apostolic churches were not "really real" then the bulk of the New Testament would be a lie. So your fundamental premise is flawed. You are trying to imagine what went on in their minds, but we are not told that. Some false teachers were trying to mislead some Christians by telling them that the Resurrection/Rapture was already past, and Paul had to calm them down and explain to them that that was not true.

 

[Gideon300]

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

I would like all of us to think about this question carefully. I know that some here have hot fingers ready to answer anything before a post is fully read, but I would like for anyone who is a true berean to think about this question.

Our first reaction from the mind, of course, would be yes. But when we teach end time prophecy from what we believe in our hearts, we really don’t.

The book of Revelation for example is an Old Testament book. Daniel wanted to know the contents of that book but the Angel told him to seal it up, “Until the time of the end”.

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind. We are at the Tower of Babel when everyone needs to find each other who speaks the same language.

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

So, when the seal was broken to finally see what Daniel longed to know, and the Angel stating that it was to be sealed until the time of the end, this is what was said of that book, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS……..”.

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words? Now remember, this thread is talking about people who we do not consider real. So, you are not a real person reading this in your day, 2000 years ago.

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

These not real brothers and sisters could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?” Didn‘t the document read at the end of the book, “Behold, I come quickly”. I wonder what “quickly” means to God? I remember when Peter was here the last time, he mentioned something about “shortly putting off his tabernacle“, I wonder if the same “shortly” he used is the same “shortly”” that is used at the beginning of the book? If I only knew greek, that might help with my child like faith. Wait a minute, John says it again in Revelation 22:6, ”must shortly comes to pass”. Oh God, why are you screwing with our minds? We were taught that the Anti Christ was coming and even now is IT in the world, and now you are telling us it’s off in the future for another group of people, why didn’t you open the seals in that generation? Why confuse us Father, you are not the author of confusion. We must not matter to You.”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

Your first point is wrong for a start. Revelation starts with letters to the 7 churches, not to the Jews. It begins with messages from the risen Christ, not OT prophets.

As the apostle Peter points out, a thousand years is as a day to God. "Shortly" therefore depends on whose point of view we are looking at. In God's time scale, the church came into being 2 days ago.

God does not confuse people. We must depend on the illumination of the Holy Spirit, who will lead us into all truth. The problem with many Christians is that they rely on intellect, not the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

I take your point about denominationalism. I've hit my head against that wall quite a few times. However, being denominational does not make you a false believer. I trust you have other, better reasons to claim she was not a Christian.

 

[JaumeJ]

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

I would like all of us to think about this question carefully. I know that some here have hot fingers ready to answer anything before a post is fully read, but I would like for anyone who is a true berean to think about this question.

Our first reaction from the mind, of course, would be yes. But when we teach end time prophecy from what we believe in our hearts, we really don’t.

The book of Revelation for example is an Old Testament book. Daniel wanted to know the contents of that book but the Angel told him to seal it up, “Until the time of the end”.

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind. We are at the Tower of Babel when everyone needs to find each other who speaks the same language.

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

So, when the seal was broken to finally see what Daniel longed to know, and the Angel stating that it was to be sealed until the time of the end, this is what was said of that book, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS……..”.

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words? Now remember, this thread is talking about people who we do not consider real. So, you are not a real person reading this in your day, 2000 years ago.

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

These not real brothers and sisters could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?” Didn‘t the document read at the end of the book, “Behold, I come quickly”. I wonder what “quickly” means to God? I remember when Peter was here the last time, he mentioned something about “shortly putting off his tabernacle“, I wonder if the same “shortly” he used is the same “shortly”” that is used at the beginning of the book? If I only knew greek, that might help with my child like faith. Wait a minute, John says it again in Revelation 22:6, ”must shortly comes to pass”. Oh God, why are you screwing with our minds? We were taught that the Anti Christ was coming and even now is IT in the world, and now you are telling us it’s off in the future for another group of people, why didn’t you open the seals in that generation? Why confuse us Father, you are not the author of confusion. We must not matter to You.”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

The full understanding of Daniel and Revelation will be for those of the last moments of what is called time.

I see many people talking about these books using words like theory, opinion, and more but thee true understanding will come to all who believe when it is time. It will not be the election of one individudal. Wait on the Lord.

 

[jb]

..."obfuscating"....

Had to look this word up...

So, not only is CC a Christian website, but one for English grammar...

 

[Grandpa]

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[ImageofGod]

@AworkINprogress What leads you to believe the New Testament people the Apostles taught were not real?

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words?

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

think about it from their perspective i think is what they are saying. think about if from their perspective, not ours now in the future here.

 

[Blain]

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

I would like all of us to think about this question carefully. I know that some here have hot fingers ready to answer anything before a post is fully read, but I would like for anyone who is a true berean to think about this question.

Our first reaction from the mind, of course, would be yes. But when we teach end time prophecy from what we believe in our hearts, we really don’t.

The book of Revelation for example is an Old Testament book. Daniel wanted to know the contents of that book but the Angel told him to seal it up, “Until the time of the end”.

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind. We are at the Tower of Babel when everyone needs to find each other who speaks the same language.

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

So, when the seal was broken to finally see what Daniel longed to know, and the Angel stating that it was to be sealed until the time of the end, this is what was said of that book, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS……..”.

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words? Now remember, this thread is talking about people who we do not consider real. So, you are not a real person reading this in your day, 2000 years ago.

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

These not real brothers and sisters could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?” Didn‘t the document read at the end of the book, “Behold, I come quickly”. I wonder what “quickly” means to God? I remember when Peter was here the last time, he mentioned something about “shortly putting off his tabernacle“, I wonder if the same “shortly” he used is the same “shortly”” that is used at the beginning of the book? If I only knew greek, that might help with my child like faith. Wait a minute, John says it again in Revelation 22:6, ”must shortly comes to pass”. Oh God, why are you screwing with our minds? We were taught that the Anti Christ was coming and even now is IT in the world, and now you are telling us it’s off in the future for another group of people, why didn’t you open the seals in that generation? Why confuse us Father, you are not the author of confusion. We must not matter to You.”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

To understand your intial reasoning you have to understand that bible prophecy often foreshadows or repeats itself several times. it isn't that they weren't real because they didn't go through what the book of revelations speaks of but they did go through many of the persecutions the book speaks of, not to mention that book was not written until the end of the era
The book of revelation and the generation in which all end times bible prophecy was to be true enough was not the early church but they could not have known at the time that they were part of a larger story being played out but it doesn't mean they weren't real

 

[Runningman]

I am asking this question because I don’t believe we really do.

I would like all of us to think about this question carefully. I know that some here have hot fingers ready to answer anything before a post is fully read, but I would like for anyone who is a true berean to think about this question.

Our first reaction from the mind, of course, would be yes. But when we teach end time prophecy from what we believe in our hearts, we really don’t.

The book of Revelation for example is an Old Testament book. Daniel wanted to know the contents of that book but the Angel told him to seal it up, “Until the time of the end”.

Right now, your putting me into a category so I can be addressed properly, but look how the rendering is rendered. I remember a so called Christian asked me, ”what denomination do you belong to?”, I replied, I don’t have a denomination. She said, “oh everyone has a denomination”. I finally told her, I grew up Pentecostal. She was elated that I told her that, now she has me in a compartment in her mind. We are at the Tower of Babel when everyone needs to find each other who speaks the same language.

I digress. The people in the New Testament are not real because we do not believe that when the Apostles spoke of end time wordings to them, they didn’t take it to heart. The Apostles were speaking to people that didn’t matter.

So, when the seal was broken to finally see what Daniel longed to know, and the Angel stating that it was to be sealed until the time of the end, this is what was said of that book, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS……..”.

Picture us back in that day reading that document that was sent out to all the Churches in Asia. What would be your reaction, after reading those words? Now remember, this thread is talking about people who we do not consider real. So, you are not a real person reading this in your day, 2000 years ago.

Claudius and Sapphira are reading the letter that John sent after he unsealed what Daniel sealed up, and they were reading the parchment.

These not real brothers and sisters could have thought, “Oh right, this is not meant for us, this is meant for the Church way off in an undetermined future. Hmm, I wonder why it was sent to us?” Didn‘t the document read at the end of the book, “Behold, I come quickly”. I wonder what “quickly” means to God? I remember when Peter was here the last time, he mentioned something about “shortly putting off his tabernacle“, I wonder if the same “shortly” he used is the same “shortly”” that is used at the beginning of the book? If I only knew greek, that might help with my child like faith. Wait a minute, John says it again in Revelation 22:6, ”must shortly comes to pass”. Oh God, why are you screwing with our minds? We were taught that the Anti Christ was coming and even now is IT in the world, and now you are telling us it’s off in the future for another group of people, why didn’t you open the seals in that generation? Why confuse us Father, you are not the author of confusion. We must not matter to You.”

Try to stand in their shoes before replying,. Imagine yourself, immerse yourself in that period and think how they would have thought if they heard or read about bible prophecy.

I see everything you're saying except one part. I am not ready to comment much further until I understand why you think the people in the New Testament are "not real." I feel like that isn't exactly what you meant, but chose a poor way to describe them. Maybe you meant to say they were not given a change to represent themselves?

Outside of the Gospels, Acts, and Romans, most of the New Testament does not include peoples' responses or their commentary. That explains their seeming absence; the Bible doesn't contain all of the exchanges of letters that occurred.

 

[AworkINprogress]

Thank you for your input. Some are getting what I was trying to convey. So, let me be absolutely clear.

We all know that the the early church believers were most certainly real. Why give information to a people and then say, “encourage one another with these words”? Couldn’t God have raised up a “Paul” in our generation to explain the coming of the LORD in more detail and that ”soon, shortly and quickly” can be more appropriately applied?

Sure, one day is like a thousand years to God and vis a vis, but that is for God because He is timeless, but we are not timeless, we require time. And when God says words like, “Soon, Quickly, and Shortly”, those words are for us, not for Him.

The seals and trumpets in the book of Revelation was what Daniel sealed, and was opened by the Lamb of God. The angel said to Daniel, “Seal up the book Daniel until the time of the end, many shall run to and fro [gospel into all the Roman world] and knowledge [of the LORD] shall increase. [emphasis mine].

As a child, reading the book of Revelation after reading the book of Daniel, I would automatically see the chain reference that “the time of the end” was when that book became unsealed.

What if we never learned the PRE-MID-POST tribulation that our denomination had taught us. And it was taught to us, because the Holy Ghost did not teach such madness. It took the likes of Scofield and his reference bible that gave us all that rot. It only takes a little leaven to leaven the whole lump.

Cyrus Schofield, hailed as a modern day Saint Paul of his day for his dispensational teachings, and inserting his notes to show an Anti Christ instead of Christ Himself. His legacy, the chain reference is the copy of choice today.

Someone said on here that I was rambling. I apologize for doing so, I don’t mean to, but this subject is so exhaustive, that it will take an earthquake in the spiritual body of Christ to get everyone’s mind back into the right gear. When explaining bible prophecy, everyone demands a visual material manifestation of everything that is read. And that is difficult to do because most of bible prophecy are images. Take for example the Rapture, believers really believe that they will see spirits rise out of the earth, attach themselves to a regenerated body that they once housed and then float up into the air to meet the LORD in the atmosphere, and then their vile body will put on a new body and so shall we ever be with the LORD.

The Jews were expecting Jesus to come as a military general like King David, wipe out the Roman occupation, and set up a universal kingdom of God on earth in Jerusalem. They literally believed what the prophecies were telling them, but when Jesus came on the scene, there was much confusion about Him. They weren’t expecting a preacher of righteousness, healing the sick and casting out devils. But this is exactly what they did when Joshua went into the promise land, they cast out the inhabitants. But with Christ, it was all to be in the spirit. Nothing had changed, it still is spiritual all the way through to the book of Revelation. Why we expect to visually see people running around with a tattoo on the forehead and hand is not how that word should ever have been received.

When the angel sealed the 144,000 (12 thousand from each tribe) so that they would not be included in the destruction, this fulfills this prophecy, “Though Israel be as the sand of the sea shore, only a remnant would be saved”. This is that remnant. This is the testimony of the Old Testament. The next verse talks about a host of people both great and small, innumerable out of every nation and tongue. This is an embarrassment to the Jews, seeing that the gentiles over took them when it came to faith.

Innumerable! We know what it means, it means that there will never be an end of the world. The everlasting Gospel will be preached to the sinner because you see my friends, the lamb of God has taketh away the [power of] sin of the world. [by crucifying the flesh]. [emphasis mine]

How did He take it away? By removing the need to keep the law. We are justified by faith and free from sin.

Again, when we think of sin, we think of our own individual flaws, and the way the world is and the state it’s in, but God isn’t talking about those sins. He is talking about the problem of not being able to keep the law. Paul spoke of it and said, every time I wanted to obey the law, evil was present with me. He found out that the only way to observe the law was just to appreciate it. Look at it, declare that it’s true and that is about the end of our association with it. Because if we try to obey the law, not only evil is present with us, but we have left the realm of faith by which we are saved.

Each time we visit bible prophecy, we will always veer off into many different directions because it demands it. We can’t just stay in one book, all the books must agree and we must go there to make it all work properly for us to understand and rightly divide the word of truth.

In the end, it all points to Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Amen

 

[AworkINprogress]

Your first point is wrong for a start. Revelation starts with letters to the 7 churches, not to the Jews. It begins with messages from the risen Christ, not OT prophets.

As the apostle Peter points out, a thousand years is as a day to God. "Shortly" therefore depends on whose point of view we are looking at. In God's time scale, the church came into being 2 days ago.

God does not confuse people. We must depend on the illumination of the Holy Spirit, who will lead us into all truth. The problem with many Christians is that they rely on intellect, not the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

I take your point about denominationalism. I've hit my head against that wall quite a few times. However, being denominational does not make you a false believer. I trust you have other, better reasons to claim she was not a Christian.

My apologies, I said “so called Christian” because I didn’t know who she was. She was someone I struck up a conversation with on the street. I couldn’t connect with her on any level. Everything seems about the church she was going to, the pastor. I don’t think I heard anything about Jesus. So, I didn’t know what kind of believer she was.

 

[tourist]

?

sorry you lost me.

John was obviously writing to people, not people in his imagination.

Yes, in a sense they were real.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

"Behold I am coming soon "

Is rendered more accurately as:

"I come quickly" Quickly, swiftly, promptly.

From the Greek: ταχύς (tachus) Definition: swift, fleet, quick;, met. ready, prompt,
Jas. 1:19; Mt. 28:7f.; Mk. 9:39; Lk. 15:22; Jn. 11:29

Gloss: quick, swift; (adv.) quickly, momentarily, soon

Strongs: 5035


His return will unfold quickly. When the appointed time- The Father knows, arrives.
The events of that time will happen rapidlly.
Similar to the way we've watched the world change seemingly overnight due to Covid panic.
2019 was normal. 2020 became "The New Normal" Quickly.

Jesus told us we will not know the time (date & hour) but we should recognise the season.
The generation alive when these things begin to happen will not have time to pass away.
At that time he will come quickly.

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon (tachu | ταχύ | adverb). Hold on to what you have, so that no one can take away your crown.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon (tachu | ταχύ | adverb).

Revelation 22:7 “Behold, I am coming soon! (tachu | ταχύ | adverb) Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy
of this book.”

Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon (tachu | ταχύ | adverb), and my recompense is with me, to repay everyone according to what he has done.

Revelation 22:20 The one who testifies to these things says: “Yes, I am coming soon!” (tachu | ταχύ | adverb)
Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

 

[Dino246]

To people alive when Paul, Peter and John were alive, “soon” meant within their lifetimes. It happened just as the biblical authors said, but not how we think it says.

I would encourage all readers to study the events of 66-70 AD, and to suspend what Scofield or other commentators have said.