Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

1 Cor 15:51-52 tells us that at the time that the dead are raised imperishable that we will also be changed. No one in Christ would have a mortal body at that time.

And that fact explains why the Millennial population will be the survivors of the Trib; all unbelievers. That also explains WHY there WILL BE a huge rebellion when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

If believers only are left to populate the earth during the Millennium, how in the world could there be a rebellion at Christ's reign?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm happy to see that someone realizes there are mortal and immortal on earth at this time.

I was beginning to think I was the only one! Good observation!

In fact, all mortals that enter the Millennium will be the unbelieving survivors of the Trib. They WILL rebel when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

The immortals are the glorified believers, which will be ALL believers when Christ returns to set up His kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The end goes right back to the beginning. God created man to live forever in the flesh and to reproduce.

Uh, glorified believers will be "like the angels in heaven" who neither marry or are given in marriage. And the idea that there will be unglorified believers after Christ resurrects and changes all believers, that would mean any believer after that who is still unglorified will NOT BE ABLE to live on the new earth. They won't have the right equipment (body) for it.

God is in the process of taking mankind in a 360 right back to the Garden of Eden. But the Garden will be the entire earth.

Please provide a verse that supports this "process". Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Zechariah says there will be children in the streets during the Millennial reign. Where does the scripture say this ends?

Just follow out Rev 20, which ends at v.15. All unbelievers will be "resurrected" for the GWT judgment and then cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Charlie24]

Just follow out Rev 20, which ends at v.15. All unbelievers will be "resurrected" for the GWT judgment and then cast into the lake of fire.

Where does it say reproduction ends? It doesn't, it carries on.

The resurrection of the just in Rev. 20 is the resurrection of the tribulation saints. The Church saints have been raptured some 7 years ago at this time and return with Christ at the second coming.

Zech. 14:5

"And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

This is referring to Israel, what is happening with them at the Second Coming. They are actually fleeing from the second invasion of the anti-christ when the Lord puts an end to it.

The Church saints come back with the Lord having already received their glorified body at the rapture. The tribulation saints are now resurrected and given glorified bodies, with the ones still living entering the reign of Christ with natural bodies along with Israel who has just seen the Messiah save them from the anti-christ and now believe.

These together will enter Christ's reign and reproduce, both Jew and Gentile. After the 1000 years millions will have been born on earth, this is where the insurrection will come from at the end, those born during the 1000 years who rejected Christ but was forced to obey until Satan is loosed and gathers them all in rebellion.

God destroys them with fire from heaven and nothing is left but the glorified immortal saints and the mortal natural body saints, all born-again. And life goes on forever just as God planned it from the Garden of Eden until sin came in the world. Which routed God to put and end to this sin and deal with man all these thousands of years to bring back perfection in man on earth.

 

[Charlie24]

Where does it say reproduction ends? It doesn't, it carries on.

The resurrection of the just in Rev. 20 is the resurrection of the tribulation saints. The Church saints have been raptured some 7 years ago at this time and return with Christ at the second coming.

Zech. 14:5

"And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

This is referring to Israel, what is happening with them at the Second Coming. They are actually fleeing from the second invasion of the anti-christ when the Lord puts an end to it.

The Church saints come back with the Lord having already received their glorified body at the rapture. The tribulation saints are now resurrected and given glorified bodies, with the ones still living entering the reign of Christ with natural bodies along with Israel who has just seen the Messiah save them from the anti-christ and now believe.

These together will enter Christ's reign and reproduce, both Jew and Gentile. After the 1000 years millions will have been born on earth, this is where the insurrection will come from at the end, those born during the 1000 years who rejected Christ but was forced to obey until Satan is loosed and gathers them all in rebellion.

God destroys them with fire from heaven and nothing is left but the glorified immortal saints and the mortal natural body saints, all born-again. And life goes on forever just as God planned it from the Garden of Eden until sin came in the world. Which routed God to put and end to this sin and deal with man all these thousands of years to bring back perfection in man on earth.

I certainly don't speak for all those pre-trib believers out there, we have some differences among ourselves.

What I have given is the way I see it!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Just follow out Rev 20, which ends at v.15. All unbelievers will be "resurrected" for the GWT judgment and then cast into the lake of fire.

Where does it say reproduction ends? It doesn't, it carries on.

You didn't follow out Rev 20. Yes, reproduction WILL occur among unbelievers during the Millennium, of course. But at the end of the Millennium, ALL unbelievers will be ushered to the GWT judgment when ALL of them will be cast into the lake of fire, which is also described as the SECOND death, and is the SECOND resurrection, the FIRST one being ALL believer of all time at the Second Advent.

As to glorified believers, Jesus said at "the resurrection", they will be "like the angels in heaven, who neither marry or are given in marriage".

The resurrection of the just in Rev. 20 is the resurrection of the tribulation saints. The Church saints have been raptured some 7 years ago at this time and return with Christ at the second coming.

Nope. There are verses (plural) that clearly indicate that there is only ONE resurrection of believers. And the one in Rev 20 for the Trib martyrs is called the FIRST resurrection (v.5).

Here are the verses that clearly indicate there is only one resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. iow, one for each; saved and unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

"those who belong to Him" are ALL the believers from Adam forward. All resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes".

So, explain all these verses since you think there are multiple resurrections of saved people.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I certainly don't speak for all those pre-trib believers out there, we have some differences among ourselves.

What I have given is the way I see it!

Read post 1747. That's the way the Bible teaches it. One resurrection for saved people, all "when He comes", and ALL believers, for it's for "those who belong to Him". That's everyone.

 

[Charlie24]

FreeGrace2 said:
Just follow out Rev 20, which ends at v.15. All unbelievers will be "resurrected" for the GWT judgment and then cast into the lake of fire.

You didn't follow out Rev 20. Yes, reproduction WILL occur among unbelievers during the Millennium, of course. But at the end of the Millennium, ALL unbelievers will be ushered to the GWT judgment when ALL of them will be cast into the lake of fire, which is also described as the SECOND death, and is the SECOND resurrection, the FIRST one being ALL believer of all time at the Second Advent.

As to glorified believers, Jesus said at "the resurrection", they will be "like the angels in heaven, who neither marry or are given in marriage".


Nope. There are verses (plural) that clearly indicate that there is only ONE resurrection of believers. And the one in Rev 20 for the Trib martyrs is called the FIRST resurrection (v.5).

Here are the verses that clearly indicate there is only one resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. iow, one for each; saved and unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

"those who belong to Him" are ALL the believers from Adam forward. All resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes".

So, explain all these verses since you think there are multiple resurrections of saved people.

FreeGrace2 said:
Just follow out Rev 20, which ends at v.15. All unbelievers will be "resurrected" for the GWT judgment and then cast into the lake of fire.

You didn't follow out Rev 20. Yes, reproduction WILL occur among unbelievers during the Millennium, of course. But at the end of the Millennium, ALL unbelievers will be ushered to the GWT judgment when ALL of them will be cast into the lake of fire, which is also described as the SECOND death, and is the SECOND resurrection, the FIRST one being ALL believer of all time at the Second Advent.

As to glorified believers, Jesus said at "the resurrection", they will be "like the angels in heaven, who neither marry or are given in marriage".


Nope. There are verses (plural) that clearly indicate that there is only ONE resurrection of believers. And the one in Rev 20 for the Trib martyrs is called the FIRST resurrection (v.5).

Here are the verses that clearly indicate there is only one resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. iow, one for each; saved and unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

"those who belong to Him" are ALL the believers from Adam forward. All resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes".

So, explain all these verses since you think there are multiple resurrections of saved people.

Jesus was speaking of those who have died and been resurrected, they will have glorified bodies and will not be able to reproduce.

But the ones I spoke of who don't die, but carry on from the 1000 year reign into the Perfect Age will have natural bodies. They did not go through the resurrection.

 

[lamad]

No. The wording of v.7 and v.9 shows preparation FOR it. Not anything about it occurring in heaven.

Pretribbers sure have to lean leavily on assumption to come up with support for their theory.


The preparation is come. That's what is occurring.

Explain v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Let me point something out to you. IF the wedding WAS occurring IN heaven, John would have written "blessed are those who were invited to the wedding."


Of course I'll be there. ALL believers from all time will be there.

Don't you know heaven will be emptied of all the believers who are now there? Up until the Second Advent?

So you don't know what "is come" means.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I have yet to see a concise explanation for pretrib rapture that does not rely on unnecessary assumptions.

Precious friend, Jocund, how about concise, And, "comparing spiritual things
with spiritual," In God's Contexts, Rightly Divided?:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

Why would I "make an Unnecessary assumption of a post-trib rapture" here?:

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

to be continued...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

Part II

God's Prophetic Program, and second earthly coming

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

 

[lamad]

No. The wording of v.7 and v.9 shows preparation FOR it. Not anything about it occurring in heaven.

Pretribbers sure have to lean leavily on assumption to come up with support for their theory.


The preparation is come. That's what is occurring.

Explain v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Let me point something out to you. IF the wedding WAS occurring IN heaven, John would have written "blessed are those who were invited to the wedding."


Of course I'll be there. ALL believers from all time will be there.

Don't you know heaven will be emptied of all the believers who are now there? Up until the Second Advent?

Often in Revelation John writes similar to a newspaper headline. For example, in covering the marriage and supper, He gives us just the barest of headlined only telling us WHEN: "is come."

Did you search out other uses of this Greek word "ἔρχεται?"

You will find this Greek word "erchomai " is used for past tense, present tense and future tense. Why is that? Because it has NO TENSE. There is no way to translate such verbs into English accurately because we have zero verbs that show "no tense."

Just as with all scripture presented on these forums, either by pretribbers or postribbers, each one reads the scriptures differently.
I read "is come" for both His wrath and for the marriage as happening right then in the verse of mention.
if he meant it for later, did John then cover it more in depth later? No. What comes later is the battle of Armageddon. That is why I think the intent is that the marriage and supper take place right then, at John's first mention.

 

[lamad]

And that fact explains why the Millennial population will be the survivors of the Trib; all unbelievers. That also explains WHY there WILL BE a huge rebellion when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

If believers only are left to populate the earth during the Millennium, how in the world could there be a rebellion at Christ's reign?

You FORGOT! It will be many generations later.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus was speaking of those who have died and been resurrected, they will have glorified bodies and will not be able to reproduce.

Everyone who has a glorified body will NOT reproduce. But why do you think otherwise?

[QUOET]But the ones I spoke of who don't die, but carry on from the 1000 year reign into the Perfect Age will have natural bodies. They did not go through the resurrection.[/QUOTE]
Because they are unbelievers is why. The ones who survive the Tribulation but aren't raptured with believers who "are alive and remain" until the coming of our Lord, will be able to reproduce during the Millennium.

Do you have an answer as to why the whole world will rebel against the King of kings after Satan is released?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you don't know what "is come" means.

No, so I DO. It's you who don't.

If the wedding supper is before the Second Advent, then only dead saints in heaven will be there, since there is only 1 resurrection, which won't occur until Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

The Bible teaches that there will be only 1 resurrection, so your theory cannot hold up to scrutiny.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Often in Revelation John writes similar to a newspaper headline. For example, in covering the marriage and supper, He gives us just the barest of headlined only telling us WHEN: "is come."

He gave us enough to know what is about to occur, but hasn't yet. And if that wedding supper will occur before the Second Advent occurs, then there will be believers who will MISS the wedding supper, a theory I reject.

The Bible teaches there is ONE resurrection, and Rev 20:5 plainly describes the resurrerction of Trib martyrs as the FIRST.
Your theory does not hold up.

Did you search out other uses of this Greek word "ἔρχεται?"

You will find this Greek word "erchomai " is used for past tense, present tense and future tense. Why is that? Because it has NO TENSE.

Well, it appears that you are faily ignorant of the Greek. If you had only searched a lexicon, you wouldn't be making such erroneous comments.

EVERY verb has as tense. To say there is a verb without a tense is beyond unaware.

The Greek word you typed out is in the present tense in my lexicon. My lexicon lists 21 different forms in the Greek, representing various tenses and other parsings.

There is no way to translate such verbs into English accurately because we have zero verbs that show "no tense."

Please cite any scholarly work that makes this bogus claim.

Just as with all scripture presented on these forums, either by pretribbers or postribbers, each one reads the scriptures differently.

Well, then. If you really believe that, you haven't even bothered to read my posts, because the verses I quote actually SAY what I claim.

There's nothing to "read" into the verses. I believe what they plainly say. Such as there is only ONE resurrection for believers. I've quoted 4 verses repeatedly that make this clear.

I read "is come" for both His wrath and for the marriage as happening right then in the verse of mention.

You are free to do whatever you want. But that doesn't mean it's true or correct. Since there is just 1 resurrection for believers, the wedding CANNOT before that resurrrection, of those "who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" will miss out on it.

if he meant it for later, did John then cover it more in depth later? No.[/QUOTE]
The wedding wasn't the focus of his writings. It was the return of Jesus Christ. John also didn't mention that Jesus would set up His kingdom when He came back, but it's sure obvious that He will.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And that fact explains why the Millennial population will be the survivors of the Trib; all unbelievers. That also explains WHY there WILL BE a huge rebellion when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

If believers only are left to populate the earth during the Millennium, how in the world could there be a rebellion at Christ's reign?

You FORGOT! It will be many generations later.

Since Trib martyrs will be resurrected at Christ's return, why do you assume that the living believers won't be "changed" as 1 Cor 15:52 plainly says, along with 1 Thess 4?

Please explain why surviving believers from the Trib miss out on both the wedding supper, and receiving a glorified body.

Your theory is just full of holes.

 

[Charlie24]

Everyone who has a glorified body will NOT reproduce. But why do you think otherwise?

[QUOET]But the ones I spoke of who don't die, but carry on from the 1000 year reign into the Perfect Age will have natural bodies. They did not go through the resurrection.

Because they are unbelievers is why. The ones who survive the Tribulation but aren't raptured with believers who "are alive and remain" until the coming of our Lord, will be able to reproduce during the Millennium.

Do you have an answer as to why the whole world will rebel against the King of kings after Satan is released?[/QUOTE]

I've already addressed that at least twice! When Christ returns He immediately destroys the anti-christ, those who believed during the tribulation and are saved (still alive) at this point of His coming are carried over into the Kingdom reign.

These mortal natural bodies will continue through the 1000 years and eventually over into the Perfect Age.

The difference between our views, as I see it in my belief, is that the rapture Paul speaks of takes place before the tribulation.

In this view, when the Lord returns, the resurrection of Rev. 20 is for the tribulation saints only with the Church saints having been taken away 7 years prior. So the tribulation saints that are alive will remain mortal and reproduce during the 1000 years, along with the 1/3 of the Jews who lived through the tribulation and have natural bodies.

As the population grows by 10's of millions over the 1000 years, there will be many who will not accept Christ but will be forced to obey until Satan is released and stirs them into rebellion. That's the way I see it.

As far as the unbelievers at the Second Coming, they are dealt with by Christ in Matt. 25:31-46, whose end is everlasting fire.

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
And that fact explains why the Millennial population will be the survivors of the Trib; all unbelievers. That also explains WHY there WILL BE a huge rebellion when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

If believers only are left to populate the earth during the Millennium, how in the world could there be a rebellion at Christ's reign?

Since Trib martyrs will be resurrected at Christ's return, why do you assume that the living believers won't be "changed" as 1 Cor 15:52 plainly says, along with 1 Thess 4?

Please explain why surviving believers from the Trib miss out on both the wedding supper, and receiving a glorified body.

Your theory is just full of holes.

Simple: 1 Cor 15 was written to the church. It is a parallel passage to 1 Thes. 4 and there Paul adds timing information: BEFORE WRATH. All those alive when He comes the NEXT time, but only to the clouds, will be pretrib and prewrath. And at that time all who are "In Christ," and born again WILL BE changed - fulfilling that verse.

Question: can you find a verse anywhere that shows us believers after the rapture are called "the church?"

The trib: "survivors" are neither the bride of Christ or guests. At the marriage, all participants will have resurrection bodies. People in natural bodies cannot go to heaven.