Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Very clear, huh. It is "HIS faith", the believer's faith. And God counts THAT faith as righteous.

"his faith": Christ's faith. There is no righteousness in any supposed faith produced by a person (besides Christ's)

Let's look at the context that precedes v.4.

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

What we see here is that WHEN Abraham believed (the promise of God) HIS OWN faith was credited to HIMSELF as righteousness.

There is NO mention of Jesus Christ in v.1-4. And keep reading all the way through Romans 4. It's all about believing the gospel, and being children of Abraham.

v.9 - Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.
v.11 - And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

It appears that you are unaware of the entire chapter.

Yeah, trust is given as a gift. that's the only way it will harmonize with john 6:29 - that being my point all along. Faith is most definitely a work as John 6:29 so informs.

I explained what Jesus did. He used THEIR word to show what God requires. But Rom 4:4,5, which it appears you still do not understand,
explicitly shows that faith and works are opposites.

As well as Eph 2:8,9.

Cherry picking your verses doesn't help you. I know the verses that refute your ideas.

Your problem is that whenever you see faith mentioned, you automatically associate it to the doing of a person's, which it is not. You miss entirely the Bible's explanation regarding the origin/source of faith.

[Jhn 6:29 NIV] 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

God gives life to their spirit - they become born again through Him, but not by the will of the flesh nor the will of nan but of (through) God

No one is arguing against this.

What you still don't understand is that regeneration is "through faith", which means faith precedes both regeneration and salvation.

Paul equated regeneration and salvation in Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. They go together. Can't have either one with the other.

Then, in v.8 Paul clarified the order: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

You cannot go "through" something unless that something is present. And so, both regeneration and salvation are through faith.

Calvinism has it totally backwards. These verses prove that.

 

[rogerg]

Very clear, huh. It is "HIS faith", the believer's faith. And God counts THAT faith as righteous.

This is getting old. I'm calling a lid on this discussion. not worth the effort at this point

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Very clear, huh. It is "HIS faith", the believer's faith. And God counts THAT faith as righteous.

This is getting old. I'm calling a lid on this discussion. not worth the effort at this point

Yes, when repeatedly being refuted, that's the best choice; quit.

I proved that it was Abraham's own faith that God credited as righteousness.

 

[Mem]

Romans 12:3, with special emphasis on KJB adherent version that reads, "....according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith," speaks to believers but includes a the allotment to every man in the address. Every one is given a measure of faith. However, not every one exercises faith, effectively burying it, such as the parable of the talents' illustration of the man given one talent being cast into outer darkness.

 

[rogerg]

es, when repeatedly being refuted, that's the best choice; quit.

I proved that it was Abraham's own faith that God credited as righteousness.

Oh contraire, you proved nothing regarding the supposed "faith" of Abraham - believe me, you were completely wrong.
The faith of Abraham was not faith from Abraham.

I wasn't refuted in any sense just the opposite in fact, I just got tired chasing you around in circles.
What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Well, I ain't crazy, at least not that crazy

 

[rogerg]

Romans 12:3, with special emphasis on KJB adherent version that reads, "....according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith,"

The ability to measure faith - to measure (as in measurement) Christ's faith, not given faith, if that's what you mean

 

[Mem]

The ability to measure faith - to measure Christ's faith, not given faith, if that's what you mean

No, that's doesn't make sense to me to even have meant that in the first place.

 

[rogerg]

No, that's doesn't make sense to me to even have meant that in the first place.

No??? I don't understand what you mean ?

For G1063 I say, G3004 through G1223 the grace G5485 given G1325 unto me, G3427 to every man G3956 that is G5607 among G1722 you, G5213 not G3361 to think of himself more G3844 highly G5252 than G3739 he ought G1163 to think; G5426 but G235 to think G5426 soberly, G1519 G4993 according as G5613 God G2316 hath dealt G3307 to every man G1538 the measure G3358 of faith. G4102

The KJV translates Strong's G3358 in the following manner: measure

1. measure, an instrument for measuring
   1. a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid
   2. a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod
   3. proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment
2. determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit
   1. the required measure, the due, fit, measure

 

[Mem]

No??? I don't understand what you mean ?

For G1063 I say, G3004 through G1223 the grace G5485 given G1325 unto me, G3427 to every man G3956 that is G5607 among G1722 you, G5213 not G3361 to think of himself more G3844 highly G5252 than G3739 he ought G1163 to think; G5426 but G235 to think G5426 soberly, G1519 G4993 according as G5613 God G2316 hath dealt G3307 to every man G1538 the measure G3358 of faith. G4102

The KJV translates Strong's G3358 in the following manner: measure

1. measure, an instrument for measuring
   1. a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid
   2. a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod
   3. proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment
2. determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit
   1. the required measure, the due, fit, measure

You used ''the ability to" measure as your initial comment subject, and then emphasize "the measure" as the definition. That's probably where you get confused.

 

[rogerg]

You used ''the ability to" measure as your initial comment subject, and then emphasize "the measure" as the definition. That's probably where you get confused.

Huh? Still doesn't make sense

 

[Mem]

Huh?

Exactly.

 

[rogerg]

Exactly.

Are you joking right now? I've been trying to answer your question. The definition I posted was for the word "measure"
which word was in the verse YOU posted. Was yours actually a serious question? If it was, add more detail because
I can't follow it. If you disagree, explain your disagreement

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I proved that it was Abraham's own faith that God credited as righteousness.

Oh contraire, you proved nothing regarding the supposed "faith" of Abraham

This, then, is a blatant denial of what the Bible says.

- believe me, you were completely wrong.
The faith of Abraham was not faith from Abraham.

Just another example of empty claims.

Where is your proof that the words in the Bible were in error then?

I wasn't refuted in any sense just the opposite in fact

Now this is an example of delusion.

I just got tired chasing you around in circles.

Such excuses go nowhere.

What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Then why do you continue to do that?

Well, I ain't crazy, at least not that crazy

I haven't address your mental status. That's not for me to determine.

I HAVE addressed your false claims and unbiblical ideas. And refuted them with clear Scripture.

And you deny them over and over. Is that what you meant by "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"?

 

[rogerg]

This, then, is a blatant denial of what the Bible says.

Just another example of empty claims.

Where is your proof that the words in the Bible were in error then?

Again, I'm not going to continue to follow you in circles regardless of the ridiculous statements you make. I'll just leave you with this. Ponder it

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[rogerg]

Then why do you continue to do that?

You got it way wrong, I was referring to MY mental status, not yours. That is, if I continue to dialog with you
knowing how you post, and the way you choose to reply then I would have to be the crazy one to continue

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, I'm not going to continue to follow you in circles regardless of the ridiculous statements you make. I'll just leave you with this. Ponder it

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I have to wonder why you quoted this verse? It doesn't support either of your 2 claims that we've been discussing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You got it way wrong, I was referring to MY mental status, not yours.

And that's exactly how I responded.

You said:
"Well, I ain't crazy, at least not that crazy"

and I said:
"I haven't address your mental status. That's not for me to determine.

I HAVE addressed your false claims and unbiblical ideas. And refuted them with clear Scripture."

So, you see, you ARE confused on a number of issues.

That is, if I continue to dialog with you
knowing how you post, and the way you choose to reply then I would have to be the crazy one to continue

Well, I do agree that when a poster keeps getting refuted by very clear Scripture, it would be crazy to continue getting all beat up by Scripture.

 

[Mem]

Are you joking right now? I've been trying to answer your question. The definition I posted was for the word "measure"
which word was in the verse YOU posted. Was yours actually a serious question? If it was, add more detail because
I can't follow it. If you disagree, explain your disagreement

I didn't ask any question. I made a statement with full awareness of the definition of the word "measure," but for whatever reason you saw the need to inform me of it.

 

[oyster67]

Doctrine of Unconditional Election


The elect are those who chose.

The Bride is indeed predestined. Let us be found in that number when the Bridegroom cometh. Let thy lamp be trimmed and burning.