Baptism by Fire

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What is the baptism of/by/with fire?

  • refers to the day of Pentecost

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • refers to the Holy Spirit’s office as energizer/purifier for believers

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • refers to judgment

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#61
I think people have to be baptized with both the Holy Spirit AND Fire. the fire is the conviction/judgement that you have sinned and are in need of confession of that sin. without the fire you would not be convicted, without suffering and trials many people do not think to pray to God for guidance and understanding of His will. Fire is like the chastening of the Lord. it is not pleasant while you are going through it but the end result is righteousness. You have to be trained and cleansed by the fires of tribulation to be awarded the robes of white/righteousness and the crown or eternal life.

Hebrews 12
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it


it is not something people enjoy are should be calling down upon themselves but is necessary for santification. it is the trials of this life that show us that we can't do it on our own but need GOD to help us. In our weakness His Strength and Mercy is manifested.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#62
What IS a Baptism
of or by FIRE?

The belief held by some believers that we should desire a baptism of or by FIRE springs from texts showing God will purify and cleanse those who are His, by purging away the dross. And the Scriptures speaking of this purifying process usually speak of it as "purge away," or "take away the dross," rather than burning it away with fire.

In Ezekiel 22 God DOES speak of burning away this dross with fire. Before we examine the words of John the Baptist about being baptized with the Holy Ghost and with FIRE, let's see if we really want this dross purified by FIRE:
"Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they are all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver.

"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As men gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt it; so I will gather you in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave you there and melt you. Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst. As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the Lord, have poured out My fury on you.' " (Ezekiel 22:18-21, NKJV throughout).
Now do you want to become dross? Do you want this kind of fire? Do you want to become so wicked -- so rebellious, stiff-necked, hard-hearted, as God says Israel was, that you provoke god's anger to the extent that he has to chastise you in the fire of his wrath? Those here purified in this fire were those so wicked, so rebellious, in such a wrong spirit that God is punishing them in anger and in fury. He is not here speaking of Christians at all, but of unregenerate, stiff-necked, rebellious, sinning, Israel.

To whom was John Speaking?
Now let us examine the New Testament text that speaks of a baptism of or with FIRE. The words were spoken by John the Baptist:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I . . . He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." (Matthew 3:11).
To whom was John speaking? Notice verse 5,
"Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him . . . "
Now, are we to suppose that all Jerusalem and all Judaea, and all this region were righteous, or at least repentant and seeking salvation? Not at all! The whole population came in great crowds -- largely out of curiosity. Did John baptize them all? Not at all! Many were repentant, confessing their sins. But others were not. Notice,
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance . . ." " (John 5:7-8).
John is speaking to these hypocrites whom he calls vipers, whom he refused to baptize, who are awaiting the wrath to come, as well as to those who repented and whom he baptized. So notice, some of those in his audience to whom John spoke were to be baptized later with the Holy Spirit. Others are awaiting the wrath to come, which shall burn them with unquenchable fire! There are two classes of people here, awaiting two opposite fates -- one to receive the Holy Spirit, the others HELL FIRE!
Notice the tenth verse of chapter 5:
"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "
He is speaking of the fate of the wicked, which shall be cast into the lake of FIRE, which is the second death, Revelation 20:14, and standing before him were those to receive that fate!
Next, John said to them:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me (Jesus) is mightier than I . . . He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:11-12).
Now notice many things here. He will gather HIS wheat. The wheat is cast, or rather gathered, into the garner. But the FIRE is the fate of the chaff -- unquenchable FIRE! Compare that with Matthew 13:30:
"Let both (wheat and tares -- the wheat representing saints, the tares lost sinners) grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." "
What do the symbols represent? Jesus explained:
"The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares (chaff) are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom (purge His floor) all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire." (Matthew 13:38-42).
What is his Floor?
Now the key to the whole question lies in the definition of "his floor." Those who believe Christians should seek this baptism with fire believe the "floor" means the individual Christian -- that Christ will fan up the flames with the fan in his hand, burning out the dross from the life of the Christian, purging this life of sin, thus burning up the chaff, leaving only the good part of the man -- the wheat.

This interpretation is not correct based on the clear meaning of other scriptures.

Notice, Christ's fan is to be in His hand. He will purge His floor. Purge it of what? Of the chaff. Then the wheat will be gathered into His garner. What is "His floor"? Evidently the same as "His field" of Matthew 13:24:
" . . . 'The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in HIS FIELD' "
But while He slept, the enemy, the devil, came and sowed tares -- sinners. Now He let BOTH -- saints and sinners -- the wheat and the tares, (or the wheat and the chaff) -- grow together in HIS field -- (His floor) -- until the harvest. Then He sends the angels to baptize (immerse) the tares, or the chaff -- the lost sinners -- with FIRE, which burns them up, but the wheat -- the saved -- are gathered into His garner -- His kingdom. Verse 38 says the field is the world.

The expressions used are almost identical to John's statement about baptizing with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Before John were gathered the children of the wicked one, and also some of those to be heirs of salvation. Christ will PURGE His floor -- His field -- the earth. The wheat will be gathered into His Kingdom, but the chaff, or tares -- the lost sinners -- are to be PURGED from the world, burned with unquenchable fire.

Now examine that word "purge." What is it Christ will PURGE? Notice Ezekiel 20:38. When He comes again,
"I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel . . ."
What about that word "fan"? The marginal reference takes us to Jeremiah 51:1-2,
"Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon . . . a destroying wind. And I will send winnowers (fanners) to Babylon, Who shall winnow (fan) her and empty her land." "
And she (Babylon) shall be utterly BURNED with FIRE: "for strong is the Lord God that judgeth her," (Revelation 18:8). The fan is an instrument for destroying sinners with FIRE -- Hell Fire -- not purifying saints.

Now what is the "chaff"? Speaking of sinners (not sins to be cleansed out of saints), God says, through Hosea 13:3,
"Therefore they shall be like the morning cloud . . . like CHAFF blown off (fanned) from a threshing floor . . ."
This language closely matches that of Christ, with His fan, whipping up a wind that purges the chaff off His floor, to be burned! Now notice further, Daniel 2:35:
"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold (Babylon -- sinners) were crushed together, and became like CHAFF from the summer threshing FLOORS; the wind (started by his fan) carried them away so that no trace of them was found."
Yes, to be burned. These scriptures show the chaff refers to lost sinners, not faults in saints. With His fan He purges His floor, carrying away the chaff, or the tares, to be burned with FIRE. Now what is UNQUENCHABLE fire? Is it used in connection with purifying saints, or punishing the lost? Notice Isaiah 66:24:
"And they (saints) shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. "
Notice Malachi 4:1:
"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven. And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble (chaff, tares). And the day which is coming shall burn them up," says the Lord of hosts . . . "
Surely that settles it. John was speaking to both sinners and those to be saved. When he said Christ shall baptize you -- the YOU included both. The saved he would baptize with his spirit -- and the others with the fire!
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#63
well if you change the words just right it may mean anything you like.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#64
well if you change the words just right it may mean anything you like.
LOL Abiding.
if you want it to mean Christians receive a baptism by Fire, that's fine, isn't it?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#65
LOL Abiding.
if you want it to mean Christians receive a baptism by Fire, that's fine, isn't it?
thats your words not mine nor the scriptures. Just leave the text as it is and read it.
Im all for hateing the cliche and false teaching. Im just not carried away by it.
 
May 21, 2009
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#66
Question: "What is the baptism of/by/with fire?"


  1. Matthew 3:11
    I indeed baptize you in (with) water because of repentance [that is, because of your changing your minds for the better, heartily amending your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins]. But He Who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthy or fit to take off or carry; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
    Matthew 3:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 3 (Whole Chapter)
  2. Luke 3:16
    John answered them all by saying, I baptize you with water; but He Who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of Whose sandals I am not fit to unfasten. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
    Luke 3:15-17 (in Context) Luke 3 (Whole Chapter)
 
May 21, 2009
3,955
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#67
you got it. remember the context of your verses: john the baptist warning the Pharisees.

the baptism by fire is immersion in the lake of fire.

its for all who refuse Jesus and the baptism He gives, the Holy Spirit.


Is there anything at all in the bible that you think is for us Zone??
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
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#68
Psalm 104: 4
You make the winds your messengers, and flaming fire your ministers.

Just a scripture for thought. :)

God bless.
pickles
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#69
they didn't have electricity in Jesus day. it is a new invention. all light came from the sun or from a flame. In Eevelations it tells us that lampstands represent Churches.

Matthew 5:13-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#70
thats your words not mine nor the scriptures. Just leave the text as it is and read it.
Im all for hateing the cliche and false teaching. Im just not carried away by it.
fair enough.
but that's the point: a simple reading of the text (not just the verse alone - the entire context) gives the meaing....judgment:D
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#71
Is there anything at all in the bible that you think is for us Zone??
Romans 8:31
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

~

tell me what the Baptism by Fire is in both your understanding of the referenced text and your experience, Linda.

cite any of your teachers' sources, then i can consider your angle.
zone.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#72
they didn't have electricity in Jesus day. it is a new invention. all light came from the sun or from a flame. In Eevelations it tells us that lampstands represent Churches.

Matthew 5:13-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven
What does that have to do with John telling the pharisees Jesus would baptise them with Fire? John did not baptise them with water, he demanded they show proof of repentnace before he would baptise them. So do you think John was tellin gthem Jesus would baptise them with both the HS and fire when he would not even baptise them in water.

Why do people take context out of a passage?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#73
What does that have to do with John telling the pharisees Jesus would baptise them with Fire? John did not baptise them with water, he demanded they show proof of repentnace before he would baptise them. So do you think John was tellin gthem Jesus would baptise them with both the HS and fire when he would not even baptise them in water.

Why do people take context out of a passage?
this is true.
so easy to drift away from the text in question and lay other ideas onto it.
the questions remain; who was there with John; what was happening in the Jordan? (out....away from the temple system)

the context says separation of wheat and chaff, doesn't it? and that based upon evidence (fruit) of repentence from something, doesn't it?

the same argument used to refute the idea that john was NOT suggesting judgment by the word FIRE can be turned back and asked, was he promising the unrepentent the Holy Ghost?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
this is true.
so easy to drift away from the text in question and lay other ideas onto it.
the questions remain; who was there with John; what was happening in the Jordan? (out....away from the temple system)

the context says separation of wheat and chaff, doesn't it? and that based upon evidence (fruit) of repentence from something, doesn't it?

the same argument used to refute the idea that john was NOT suggesting judgment by the word FIRE can be turned back and asked, was he promising the unrepentent the Holy Ghost?

Amen, there is a difference between offering to baptize in water. and actually doing it. Just like there is a difference between offering the HS, and actually promising them they will get it apart from repentance.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#75
Amen, there is a difference between offering to baptize in water. and actually doing it. Just like there is a difference between offering the HS, and actually promising them they will get it apart from repentance.
yep. seems clear to me.
put together with the charismatic 'manifestations' whenever they call down FIRE! looks pretty risky....preconditioning?

Revelation 13:13
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

zone
( the prince who was to come was General Titus: wiped out Jeruslam in 70AD, left her desolate just like Jesus prophesied during the first half of the 70th week:))
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#76
yep. seems clear to me.
put together with the charismatic 'manifestations' whenever they call down FIRE! looks pretty risky....preconditioning?

Revelation 13:13
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

zone
( the prince who was to come was General Titus: wiped out Jeruslam in 70AD, left her desolate just like Jesus prophesied during the first half of the 70th week:))
Yep it does seem fishy. we should run away from them.

(Sorry can't buy it. He did not make a covenant with Isreal. He is the people of the prince who is to come. not the prince himself)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#77
Yep it does seem fishy. we should run away from them.

(Sorry can't buy it. He did not make a covenant with Isreal. He is the people of the prince who is to come. not the prince himself)
yes we should run away, but point to them as a danger.

(Titus didn't make a covenant, it doesn't say he did. it says Jesus confirmed the Promise of the New Covenant...this is a dispensational set-up for us to look for the pope most likely to pull a stunt...then prolly Rome gets whacked, everybody says oh LOOK! Babylon is fallen is fallen....just like so many did with 9-11:D)
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#78
What does that have to do with John telling the pharisees Jesus would baptise them with Fire? John did not baptise them with water, he demanded they show proof of repentnace before he would baptise them. So do you think John was tellin gthem Jesus would baptise them with both the HS and fire when he would not even baptise them in water.

Why do people take context out of a passage?
the title of the thread is "baptism by fire" not what did John says in that passage. It has to do with the idea whether or not all fire in the Bible is negative meaning hellfire or the fire of God's judgement

and why would it not be referring to all of humanity since all men are sinners? Would they not need to be convicted/ judged guilty so they can confess and repent of their sins and ask for Jesus to redeem them?
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#79
the title of the thread is "baptism by fire" not what did John says in that passage. It has to do with the idea whether or not all fire in the Bible is negative meaning hellfire or the fire of God's judgement

and why would it not be referring to all of humanity since all men are sinners? Would they not need to be convicted/ judged guilty so they can confess and repent of their sins and ask for Jesus to redeem them?
Q: is there any other place the word baptize is used with fire (as john used it)?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#80
the title of the thread is "baptism by fire" not what did John says in that passage. It has to do with the idea whether or not all fire in the Bible is negative meaning hellfire or the fire of God's judgement

and why would it not be referring to all of humanity since all men are sinners? Would they not need to be convicted/ judged guilty so they can confess and repent of their sins and ask for Jesus to redeem them?
1. The only time "baptism by fire" is used is when John says it. So to say what john said is not part of this thread is just plain in error on your part.

2. Who claimed they did not need to be convicted/judged? That is the HS job. to convict os sin righteousness and judgment. It is when we are convicted and then repent that we are baptised with the spirit. This has nothign to do with a fire that will never be quenched.. which is only spoken of one thing. Hell..