The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Heaven_Bound · Jan 28, 2022

The Hebrew Word for Apostasy and meaning:

rebellious

Apostasy in Judaism refers to the rejection of Judaism and possible conversion to another religion by a Jew. The term apostasy is derived from Ancient Greek: ἀποστάτης, meaning "rebellious" (Hebrew: מורד.)

Jude uses:

The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning "defection", "departure", "revolt", or "rebellion". It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity.

Paul uses:

The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning "defection", "departure", "revolt", or "rebellion". It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity.

Both Paul and Jude use the Same Word in Greek [ἀποστάτης] that means the Same as the Hebrew Word [מורד] which BOTH mean all throughout the Holy Bible:
"defection", "departure", "revolt", or "rebellion". It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, God!

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2022

Runningman said:

It's NOT isolated.

"Winer's Grammar" was published well-prior to "1871" (like, around 1822, 1825 or something)... and SAYS THIS (basically the SAME THING as L&S):

[quoting again, and connecting the LINK this time]

"A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament: Regarded as a Sure Basis" by George Benedikt Winer (pgs 24-25):

"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"

[found on pgs 24-25]

-- https://books.google.com/books?id=i7kC8UOe-4cC&pg=PA24&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true

[end quoting]

____________

[THAT ^ is saying, the VERY WORD "APOSTASIS" became "APOSTASIA" in later times (but SAME DEFINITION!)]

Strong's Concordance didn't come out till AFTER 1871 (in 1890)... so we know that L&S didn't consult THAT (much to your great disappointment, I'm sure). Hello.

And "Strong's" is NOT MEANT to cover EVERY DETAIL of each word found in Scripture... it provides a rather scant and surface overview, enough to get the beginner student STARTED, but certainly not in any great detail...

Runningman · Jan 28, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

You're telling people to check your source then when they check your source it doesn't match what you're saying. Then you are telling them they're reading it wrong?

Look, no sources are in agreement with what you're saying the Bible says. I can only guess why you're saying what you're saying.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2022

^ See again the K. Wuest (Greek scholar) article [scroll down in the post at LINK below, to see his article on this word]:

Post #31 - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-pre-trib-rapture-or.201577/post-4662044

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2022

Runningman said:

[L&S (1871), entry] "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"

... that certainly matches what I said... coz that's exactly what I showed in my posts.

This is saying they are THE SAME WORD (one being a "LATER FORM FOR" the other!), which is exactly what "Winer" is ALSO saying (ON his PAGES #24-25)

kleronomos · Jan 28, 2022

cv5 said:

WHAT PART OF ETHNIC JACOB MEANS ANYTHING? THERE ARE NO JEWS OR GENTILES IN CHRIST. How does the blindness coming off the part of Israel signal the end of the church age? As soon as the blindness comes off all the teachers leave? Or are they 'punished' because they were blinded so the gentiles could be grafted in?

2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

GREAT TRIALS have taken place before with no 'rapture' can you explain that? How exactly is that JUST?

IF IT DOES WHO ARE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING? IT CAN'T BE PEOPLE WHO COME TO FAITH DURING THE TRIBULATION BECAUSE THERE HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE MORE THAN 'A SIGN' IF THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED. THEY HAVE SEEN THE BIGGEST MIRACLE EVER PERFORMED. THE SEA PARTING WOULD BE NOTHING COMPARED TO THAT. SO THERE COULD BE NO COMING TO FAITH. SO WHO ARE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING IF NOT THE CHURCH. WHY WOULD CHRIST COME GET THE CHURCH 'UNSEEN' BUT KNOWN? HOW CAN THAT HAPPEN IF HIS BRIGHTNESS DESTROYS SATAN WHEN HE COMES? HOW WILL HE HIDE THAT? HOW DOES HE LEAVE THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD BEFORE ALL THE ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL?

HOW DO THE TWO WITNESSES PLAY INTO ALL THIS? GOD TAKES AWAY ALL HELP AND SENDS THEM IN TO WORK THE WHOLE WORLD? THAT IS ALL THE HOPE THERE IS?

HOW IS IT IS KNOW EXACTLY HOW THE DEAD AND RAISED GET TO HEAVEN LIKE THE BACK OF MY HAND BUT STILL CAN'T SEE HOW THE CHURCH DOES? WHY CAN NO ONE PUT IT IN ORDER USEING ONLY GODS WORDS WHEN THEY SAY THAT IS TRUTH AND I CAN PUT IT IN ORDER USING ONLY HIS WORDS AND THAT ISN'T TRUTH?

IF ALL THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE GATHERED THE FIRST TIME WHO IS ALIVE AND REMAINING FOR ANY OTHER TIME?

2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Are these things Paul went through GODS WRATH?

THE CHURCH doesn't have an 'age' in which it ends. It is gathered to Christ when He returns. He returns after the workings of Satan.

THE CHURCH is the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham is Isaac and Jacob. The church is Jacob.

You can quote up one side and down the other, but you can't change that fact. THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. It doesn't matter if JACOB WAS NEVER USED IN THE CHAPTER. Salvation was opened up to the gentiles to be GRAFTED INTO WHAT ALREADY EXISTED SO THEY COULD BECOME PARTAKERS OF THE PROMISE.

IF THEY DON'T BECOME THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, THEY REMAIN GENTILES.

GENTILES ARE NOT SAVED. GENTILES HAVE NO PROMISES. GENTILES DON'T HAVE FAITH. GENTILES DON'T HAVE CHRIST.

THERE IS ONLY THE ONE WAY.

Heaven_Bound · Jan 28, 2022

Whatever Apostasy meant in the Hebrew Torah, it has to mean the same in the Greek Written New Testament!

God is not the Author of Confusion!

So, there ARE NOT TWO MEANINGS for Apostasy!

cv5 · Jan 28, 2022

kleronomos said:

WHAT PART OF ETHNIC JACOB MEANS ANYTHING? THERE ARE NO JEWS OR GENTILES IN CHRIST. How does the blindness coming off the part of Israel signal the end of the church age? As soon as the blindness comes off all the teachers leave? Or are they 'punished' because they were blinded so the gentiles could be grafted in?

2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

GREAT TRIALS have taken place before with no 'rapture' can you explain that? How exactly is that JUST?

IF IT DOES WHO ARE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING? IT CAN'T BE PEOPLE WHO COME TO FAITH DURING THE TRIBULATION BECAUSE THERE HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE MORE THAN 'A SIGN' IF THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED. THEY HAVE SEEN THE BIGGEST MIRACLE EVER PERFORMED. THE SEA PARTING WOULD BE NOTHING COMPARED TO THAT. SO THERE COULD BE NO COMING TO FAITH. SO WHO ARE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING IF NOT THE CHURCH. WHY WOULD CHRIST COME GET THE CHURCH 'UNSEEN' BUT KNOWN? HOW CAN THAT HAPPEN IF HIS BRIGHTNESS DESTROYS SATAN WHEN HE COMES? HOW WILL HE HIDE THAT? HOW DOES HE LEAVE THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD BEFORE ALL THE ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL?

HOW DO THE TWO WITNESSES PLAY INTO ALL THIS? GOD TAKES AWAY ALL HELP AND SENDS THEM IN TO WORK THE WHOLE WORLD? THAT IS ALL THE HOPE THERE IS?

HOW IS IT IS KNOW EXACTLY HOW THE DEAD AND RAISED GET TO HEAVEN LIKE THE BACK OF MY HAND BUT STILL CAN'T SEE HOW THE CHURCH DOES? WHY CAN NO ONE PUT IT IN ORDER USEING ONLY GODS WORDS WHEN THEY SAY THAT IS TRUTH AND I CAN PUT IT IN ORDER USING ONLY HIS WORDS AND THAT ISN'T TRUTH?

IF ALL THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE GATHERED THE FIRST TIME WHO IS ALIVE AND REMAINING FOR ANY OTHER TIME?

2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Are these things Paul went through GODS WRATH?

THE CHURCH doesn't have an 'age' in which it ends. It is gathered to Christ when He returns. He returns after the workings of Satan.

THE CHURCH is the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham is Isaac and Jacob. The church is Jacob.

You can quote up one side and down the other, but you can't change that fact. THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. It doesn't matter if JACOB WAS NEVER USED IN THE CHAPTER. Salvation was opened up to the gentiles to be GRAFTED INTO WHAT ALREADY EXISTED SO THEY COULD BECOME PARTAKERS OF THE PROMISE.

IF THEY DON'T BECOME THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, THEY REMAIN GENTILES.

GENTILES ARE NOT SAVED. GENTILES HAVE NO PROMISES. GENTILES DON'T HAVE FAITH. GENTILES DON'T HAVE CHRIST.

THERE IS ONLY THE ONE WAY.

Even your questions don't make sense. Sorry to say.

kleronomos · Jan 28, 2022

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

who was taken to heaven this time?

Runningman · Jan 28, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

You're wrong and I do mean that sincerely and professionally. That isn't my opinion either, it's just that all sources disagree with what you're saying. I can't find anything at all that confirms what you're saying, even your own source seems to betray you.

You said look 12 down from the top so I did that and found that it matches the widely-accepted definition of apostasia that nearly all Greek scholars, well-known commentators, lexicons, concordances, and Bible versions/translations agree with. And you're trying to convince me everything is wrong and you're the one who is right?

cv5 · Jan 28, 2022

kleronomos said:

WHAT PART OF ETHNIC JACOB MEANS ANYTHING? THERE ARE NO JEWS OR GENTILES IN CHRIST. How does the blindness coming off the part of Israel signal the end of the church age? As soon as the blindness comes off all the teachers leave? Or are they 'punished' because they were blinded so the gentiles could be grafted in?

2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

GREAT TRIALS have taken place before with no 'rapture' can you explain that? How exactly is that JUST?

IF IT DOES WHO ARE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING? IT CAN'T BE PEOPLE WHO COME TO FAITH DURING THE TRIBULATION BECAUSE THERE HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE MORE THAN 'A SIGN' IF THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED. THEY HAVE SEEN THE BIGGEST MIRACLE EVER PERFORMED. THE SEA PARTING WOULD BE NOTHING COMPARED TO THAT. SO THERE COULD BE NO COMING TO FAITH. SO WHO ARE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING IF NOT THE CHURCH. WHY WOULD CHRIST COME GET THE CHURCH 'UNSEEN' BUT KNOWN? HOW CAN THAT HAPPEN IF HIS BRIGHTNESS DESTROYS SATAN WHEN HE COMES? HOW WILL HE HIDE THAT? HOW DOES HE LEAVE THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD BEFORE ALL THE ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL?

HOW DO THE TWO WITNESSES PLAY INTO ALL THIS? GOD TAKES AWAY ALL HELP AND SENDS THEM IN TO WORK THE WHOLE WORLD? THAT IS ALL THE HOPE THERE IS?

HOW IS IT IS KNOW EXACTLY HOW THE DEAD AND RAISED GET TO HEAVEN LIKE THE BACK OF MY HAND BUT STILL CAN'T SEE HOW THE CHURCH DOES? WHY CAN NO ONE PUT IT IN ORDER USEING ONLY GODS WORDS WHEN THEY SAY THAT IS TRUTH AND I CAN PUT IT IN ORDER USING ONLY HIS WORDS AND THAT ISN'T TRUTH?

IF ALL THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE GATHERED THE FIRST TIME WHO IS ALIVE AND REMAINING FOR ANY OTHER TIME?

2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Are these things Paul went through GODS WRATH?

THE CHURCH doesn't have an 'age' in which it ends. It is gathered to Christ when He returns. He returns after the workings of Satan.

THE CHURCH is the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham is Isaac and Jacob. The church is Jacob.

You can quote up one side and down the other, but you can't change that fact. THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. It doesn't matter if JACOB WAS NEVER USED IN THE CHAPTER. Salvation was opened up to the gentiles to be GRAFTED INTO WHAT ALREADY EXISTED SO THEY COULD BECOME PARTAKERS OF THE PROMISE.

IF THEY DON'T BECOME THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, THEY REMAIN GENTILES.

GENTILES ARE NOT SAVED. GENTILES HAVE NO PROMISES. GENTILES DON'T HAVE FAITH. GENTILES DON'T HAVE CHRIST.

THERE IS ONLY THE ONE WAY.

No Paul did not suffer God's wrath.
No the Church is not Jacob.

Are you a newbie Bible student or something?
Because you are listing way way off keel here buddy.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2022

kleronomos said:

The word "TO FORSAKE" (as shown in your quote above) is a VERB.

We're looking at A NOUN (both in Acts 21:21 and in 2Th2:3);

...so a better translation ^ would be "[that you teach...] A DEPARTURE [NOUN] FROM MOSES" (where the ADDED WORDS "FROM MOSES" tells us "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant; and in any given context where this word is used, CONTEXT determines "WHAT KIND" of DEPARTURE is meant... It's not the same "kind" in evey case. I spelled some of those out in a previous post.)

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2022

Runningman said:

You're wrong and I do mean that sincerely and professionally. That isn't my opinion either, it's just that all sources disagree with what you're saying. I can't find anything at all that confirms what you're saying, even your own source seems to betray you.

You said look 12 down from the top so I did that and found that it matches the widely-accepted definition of apostasia that nearly all Greek scholars, well-known commentators, lexicons, concordances, and Bible versions/translations agree with. And you're trying to convince me everything is wrong and you're the one who is right?
View attachment 235586

It plainly states ^ (RIGHT THERE ^ in your "picture"/link) "LATER FORM FOR apostasis"

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2022

See also (at BibleHub):

HELPS Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm

[get it? "A LEAVING" / "DEPARTURE"... but in the case of 2Th2:3, "THE LEAVING / THE DEPARTURE"! (the one PAUL just mentioned, IN VERSE 1!!)... Paul is reiterating the "SEQUENCE" between THIS ^ and "the [EARTHLY] DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]"]

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

And under THAYER'S LEXICON (at BibleHub), he quotes one saying:

"The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις [/apostasis]; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24)."

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm [scroll down to "Thayer's Lexicon" under this G646 word we're discussing]

(same thing that L&S's lexicon is saying [1871] in the "picture"/link you put)

Runningman · Jan 28, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

Ok. Apostasis doesn't mean what you seem to think it does buddy.

kleronomos · Jan 28, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

We know the departure isn't for a gathering to the Lord

kleronomos · Jan 28, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

No matter what kind of departure 'the church being taken to heaven' ISN'T ADDING ONE WORD to the words of God it is making up an entire doctrine all on your own. You could show that to a billion people who never heard of pre trib rapture and not one of them would ever guess that is what GOD IS TELLING US in those verses. Not a hint in any way shape or form. The only thing that comes close it what is told FOR SURE isn't going to happen and that is a gathering. So depart for where ever you are going but the going isn't to a gathering to the Lord.

kleronomos · Jan 28, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

A falling away happens because Jesus 1st warning on the subject DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.

Jackson123 · Jan 28, 2022

Absolutely said:

Read 2 tes 2 and tell me what verse indicate pre trib
I read it it say second coming and our gathering wit Him after man of sin being reveal/gt

The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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