One taken,one left. The rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

DavidTree said:
CORRECT = Scripture is 100% Pre-Wrath for His Elect
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you prove the Scripture for this?

Noah

God likes to paint pictures of truth = Genesis

Hm. Not there yet. Actual verses?

Jesus' mention of Noah and the "last days" was about how peope were living. That was Jesus' point. How does the account of Noah shed light on a 100% pre-wrath rapture?

Thanks.

 

[DavidTree]

DavidTree said:
CORRECT = Scripture is 100% Pre-Wrath for His Elect
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you prove the Scripture for this?

Hm. Not there yet. Actual verses?

Jesus' mention of Noah and the "last days" was about how peope were living. That was Jesus' point. How does the account of Noah shed light on a 100% pre-wrath rapture?

Thanks.

Why did Jesus focus on them "marrying and being given in marriage".

 

[FreeGrace2]

DavidTree said:
CORRECT = Scripture is 100% Pre-Wrath for His Elect
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you prove the Scripture for this?

Hm. Not there yet. Actual verses?

Jesus' mention of Noah and the "last days" was about how peope were living. That was Jesus' point. How does the account of Noah shed light on a 100% pre-wrath rapture?

Thanks.

Why did Jesus focus on them "marrying and being given in marriage".

Hm. Still not there.

Jesus' focus was on HOW people were living, comparing the "days of Noah" with the "last days". I already noted that.

What specific verse(s) informed you of the 100% pre-wrath rapture for His elect?

Or are you informed by general comments with nothing specific?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why did Jesus focus on them "marrying and being given in marriage".

The answer is in Matt 23:30 - “for in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.” Those who are “left” are still “marrying and being given in marriage”, they are still clinging to the Babylonian system. When the judgment comes they’ll just voluntarily stay there and die ‘cuz they’re too stuck to move. “Marrying and being given in marriage” is their status quo and state of mind. They don’t know jack about marrying to Christ the one and only bridegroom.

And by the way, I don’t think “marrying” as holy matrimony and lifetime commitment, considering this decaying western culture where marriage rate is at all time low while the number of single people is at all time high, where the big question has changed from “how many dates before first sex” to “how many sexes before first date,” it probably just means “hook up, shack up, break up and repeat.” That would be a suitable definition.

 

[DavidTree]

DavidTree said:
CORRECT = Scripture is 100% Pre-Wrath for His Elect
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you prove the Scripture for this?

Hm. Not there yet. Actual verses?

Jesus' mention of Noah and the "last days" was about how peope were living. That was Jesus' point. How does the account of Noah shed light on a 100% pre-wrath rapture?

Thanks.

Hm. Still not there.

Jesus' focus was on HOW people were living, comparing the "days of Noah" with the "last days". I already noted that.

What specific verse(s) informed you of the 100% pre-wrath rapture for His elect?

Or are you informed by general comments with nothing specific?

What is Genesis to you? Just a generalization?? A brief comment of.............???

Woven thoughout Scripture
is the Harmony of His Plan
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or to other men
But to God who alone
Holds the Eternal Pen

The LORD spoke in parables for this very reason
Wisdom eluding the evil hearts of men in treason
for HE alone reveals the unkown, seen yet unseen
that we as children may draw near with our heart
to hear from the Spirit that which He departs
Scripture upon scripture, line upon line
Seeing with the Spirit is both Just and Fine
Noah upon the waters - raised above the Crime

 

[DavidTree]

The answer is in Matt 23:30 - “for in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.” Those who are “left” are still “marrying and being given in marriage”, they are still clinging to the Babylonian system. When the judgment comes they’ll just voluntarily stay there and die ‘cuz they’re too stuck to move. “Marrying and being given in marriage” is their status quo and state of mind. They don’t know jack about marrying to Christ the one and only bridegroom.

And by the way, I don’t think “marrying” as holy matrimony and lifetime commitment, considering this decaying western culture where marriage rate is at all time low while the number of single people is at all time high, where the big question has changed from “how many dates before first sex” to “how many sexes before first date,” it probably just means “hook up, shack up, break up and repeat.” That would be a suitable definition.

This is true and yet there is a more significant revelation and thus Noah and his generation...............

 

[Absolutely]

Nope, there's only one. From 24:32 to 51, it's all descriptions of what it would be like when He comes. If you still think there're two, then the other one is either in the desert or in a secret closet specially reserved for you, go find it.

You left out "before the flood, ...one taken, the other left,....watch and be ready."

But I understand why.

 

[Absolutely]

Look it's not that complicated. There's just one key message of the Olivet Discourse - when you see these signs, RUUUUUNNNNN!!! Some will listen and run, others will call you a rightwing conspiracy theorist and stay, hence "one taken, one left." Everything after Matt. 24:31 is illustrations and parables of such REACTIONS, there's not one word about a "secret rapture" or any indication of another "coming".

I know of no one but postribbers selling "secret rapture".
I think the reason your vision is clouded is those bizarre accusations.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

the wedding and the wedding festivities, are the same greek word.
That is what you inadvertantly illustrated.

That solidly places the wedding and feast in heaven.

Now you're not even LOOKING at the text I also pointed out when I said CONTEXT matters (Revelation 19):

[look at the distinctions I pointed out]

-- Revelation 19:7 (re: "the MARRIAGE" pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]") - "the MARRIAGE *came*" (some versions say "has come") "and the bride / wife PREPARED herself"
- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/19-7.htm



--Revelation 19:9 (re: "the marriage SUPPER [G1173 in THIS CONTEXT - https://biblehub.com/greek/1173.htm " pertaining to the PLURAL invited-ones [/those HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect indicative] TO...], who are said to be "BLESSED" as in about 8 other passages speaking TO THIS ISSUE [meaning, THEIR ENTRANCE INTO the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (in their mortal bodies), upon His "RETURN" to the EARTH]... such as Daniel 12:12 "BLESSED is he that WAITETH and COMETH TO the 1335 days" (I've listed out all those passages in past discussions), same "BLESSED" in Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the MEAL [G347 - same Grk word as in Matt8:11 and parallel]... "BLESSED"... which entire passage is PARALLEL to that which is written in Matthew 24:36-51... and note again what I'd put in past posts about the "LAMPS LIT" issue (v.35) which pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" (i.e. TRIB YEARS) aspect OF the very lengthy time-period known as "the day of the Lord" that ARRIVES at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]," which "beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus spoke of are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6 which will be opened at the START of the "7 yr period [i.e. the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1], NOT what would transpire and unfold upon the earth over the course of some near-2000 years starting back in the first century, NO (even Lk21:12 says, basically, that the 70ad events must take place [sequentially] "BEFORE" all the beginning of birth pangs)
- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/19-9.htm



Now, notice at the links to these two verses, the DISTINCTIONS.

--the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" (pertaining to the MARRIAGE itself, which is ALREADY COMPLETED / has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, by that point) is distinct from the "those [plural] HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect indicative] TO the wedding SUPPER [G1173 in THIS CONTEXT - https://biblehub.com/greek/1173.htm ]" "BLESSED"--notice that this is saying that only the "INVITING" has taken place and been completed, at this point in the chronology, not that the SUPPER ITSELF has already taken place, NOR that "those [plural] HAVING BEEN INVITED" TO it are present [bodily] UP IN HEAVEN (that's what the NEXT scene involves [following His "RETURN" to the earth (and us WITH Him)], in all of the passages in the gospels referring to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES" or "the MEAL [G347]," which shows those characters (being referred to) STILL LOCATED ON THE EARTH when He comes [to THERE / the EARTH], and how those saints [having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs (the ones STILL-LIVING at the time of His "RETURN"--like the one in Dan12:12 "BLESSED" shows, along with about 8 other "BLESSED" passages)] will ENTER the EARTHLY MK age [in their mortal bodies CAPABLE of reproducing / bearing children (see again the effects in Rev20:8 at the END of the MK age "the number of whom is as...")--again, the ones "STILL-LIVING" at that point of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19... and ONLY "the RIGHTEOUS" will ENTER the MK age... not those who HADN'T come to faith in Christ by that point!])



I would write more (much more!) but most ppl tune out when there's these lengthy posts... and "skimming" them just doesn't touch on all the important "reasons" provided therein... I'm sure this post will largely be ignored, lol

 

[Jocund]

Mat 24 has 2 comings.
Re read it.
You left one out.

But you also left out the coming of Jesus in rev 14 (that is neither the rapture or the second coming on horses).

Omission is not the high ground.

Can you cite the Mat 24 verses and give your breakdown?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is Genesis to you? Just a generalization?? A brief comment of.............???

I'm puzzled as to your failure to provide actual verses that would support a 100% pre-wrath rapture. Your answers have been just generalizations. I'm trying to see actual verses that inform the view of a pre-wrath rapture.

Woven thoughout Scripture
is the Harmony of His Plan
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or to other men
But to God who alone
Holds the Eternal Pen

Don't need these kind of verses. I would like to see biblical verses. Not poetry or prose. Or whatever this is.

The LORD spoke in parables for this very reason
Wisdom eluding the evil hearts of men in treason
for HE alone reveals the unkown, seen yet unseen
that we as children may draw near with our heart
to hear from the Spirit that which He departs
Scripture upon scripture, line upon line
Seeing with the Spirit is both Just and Fine
Noah upon the waters - raised above the Crime

This isn't helping.

OK, I guess you don't have actual biblical verses that clearly teach a pre-wrath rapture.

I'm not surprised. Because the Bible teaches there is just ONE resurrection of the saved. And we know when that will be.

"when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23. ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be given glorified bodies at that time.

Rev 20:4,5 proves that the resurrection of the saved is after the Trib. And Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1 show clearly that "our beging gathered" is "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.

So of course there wouldn't be any evidence for a pretrib or prewrath rapture, since the giving of glorified bodies to living believers occurs WITH the resurrection of all believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Absolutely said:
Mat 24 has 2 comings.
Re read it.
You left one out.

But you also left out the coming of Jesus in rev 14 (that is neither the rapture or the second coming on horses).

Omission is not the high ground.

Can you cite the Mat 24 verses and give your breakdown?

I've been asking him, but no answers.

It's just futile.

He can't defend his own position. Even when someone begs him to.

 

[kleronomos]

Jesus declared ,at the last supper, ( in conflict to your assumptions) that HE WOULD DRINK WINE WITH HIS FAMILY in heaven.That would mean they had glorified bodies.

NOT in conflict with MINE. Please quit ascribing to me what others believe. Maybe speak with one person at a time if keeping them straight is a problem, as I am tired of defending myself from things that aren't true of me but of someone else.

SO again, NOT IN CONFLICT WITH MY KNOWLEDGE, I Agree, when we are in heaven it is in glorified bodies

 

[kleronomos]

amen
I am also a pretribber

Then please give us WHAT IS WRITTEN about THE CHURCH RAPTURED TO HEAVEN SO WE CAN READ IT OURSELVES IN GODS WORDS AND NOT just yours. MUCH APPRECIATED.

If you can't do that then the RESPONSE YOU MADE would be deceptive wouldn't it?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm not sure if Paul’s account of that third heaven experience (2 Cor 12:1-4) is the same sense of “rapture” as these other examples. We don’t know whether it was a disembodied experience (common of visions/revelations), or a bodily departure as these examples mentioned above. In my previous post, I underlined what I meant by a "rapture event" as a bodily departure from one place to another.

Some believe (as I do) that the Revelation 12:5[,13] reference to "the man child" / "the male [G730]" refers not to Jesus' own birth (Micah 5:2), but rather speaks of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (caught up / snatched / raptured - G726)--just sayin' = )

...not that this occurs at the MID-trib setting this passage speaks to (v.12), b/c v.13 says, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730]" (at some point PRIOR TO this) and note v.17 then speaks of "the remnant of her seed" (see below); and which would then correspond with the info and [3 sets of] characters spoken of in Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 re: Jesus), where it speaks of the same 3 [sets of] characters (not to mention the sequence): "the woman"... the "birthed [one]"... "the remnant of his brethren [shall return unto the children of Israel]"... same 3 as in Rev12...
(notice the words prefacing the verse: "Therefore will he give them up UNTIL the time she which travaileth [identifying her] HATH BROUGHT FORTH; THEN...")






["And she brought forth a male son, who is about to shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron [see Rev2:26-27 (not to mention 5:9 and what the 24 elders say [IN HEAVEN]: "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY")]; and her child was caught up to God, and to His throne."]

 

[kleronomos]

Says the adherents with no verses.

Your last desperado deal is comical.

" show me anywhere on the white bird where " white bird" is written on it". And you think you've inverted the entire Bible off of that wild assumption . The last trick you can pull from the Hat, (and you just keep hammering away at it) is the old" show me a verse that has Saints taken to heaven".

We see enoch, Elijah,and the 2 witnesses for starters.
Then those others i showed you guys.

Stop lying

SERIOUSLY? YOU think IT IS A TRICK to ask WHERE IS IT WRITTEN? What part of NOTHING YOU PUT FORTH IS WRITTEN don't you get.

HOW ARE WE TO DETERMINE WHAT IS TRUTH FROM WHAT IS NOT IF WE DON'T GO BY WHAT IS WRITTEN?


Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalm 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.




SO AGAIN, IF ONLY YOU COULD HAVE GODS PURE WORDS SHOW US




And of course, as always, the derision. Seems to be a constant state of mind...fruit that leaves a bad taste every time.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm puzzled as to your failure to provide actual verses that would support a 100% pre-wrath rapture. Your answers have been just generalizations. I'm trying to see actual verses that inform the view of a pre-wrath rapture.


Don't need these kind of verses. I would like to see biblical verses. Not poetry or prose. Or whatever this is.


This isn't helping.

OK, I guess you don't have actual biblical verses that clearly teach a pre-wrath rapture.

I'm not surprised. Because the Bible teaches there is just ONE resurrection of the saved. And we know when that will be.

"when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23. ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be given glorified bodies at that time.

Rev 20:4,5 proves that the resurrection of the saved is after the Trib. And Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1 show clearly that "our beging gathered" is "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.

So of course there wouldn't be any evidence for a pretrib or prewrath rapture, since the giving of glorified bodies to living believers occurs WITH the resurrection of all believers.

Everything you stated is in line with Scripture except for the last sentence.

"But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." 1 Thess 5

Tribulation is not God's wrath, therefore no pre-trib verses in the Scripture.
Pre-wrath Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Noah endured the greatest tribulation the world had seen up to that time.
Noah was not appointed to wrath but rose above the Flood/Wrath, being protected in the Ark (Christ).
Noah was a prophet and the example of faith for us as we wait for Christ's return.

The entire world was appointed to God's wrath = find out why.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness,
bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8(for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
2 Peter 2:4-9

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The entire world was appointed to God's wrath = find out why.

Do you believe His "wrath" will only unfold upon the earth during "a singular 24-hour 'day'" (perhaps, the day of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19)??

 

[arthurfleminger]

Then please give us WHAT IS WRITTEN about THE CHURCH RAPTURED TO HEAVEN SO WE CAN READ IT OURSELVES IN GODS WORDS AND NOT just yours. MUCH APPRECIATED.

If you can't do that then the RESPONSE YOU MADE would be deceptive wouldn't it?

One has to play fast and loose with Scripture and twist and turn the words this way and that way in order to come up with the concept of the pretrib Rapture. In fact the concept didn't even arise until the 1800's when a preacher named John Darby came up with the concept. The only place you'll find evidence of the Rapture in the Bible is in the footnotes of the Schofield Bible where they describe events according to Darby's ideas. Of course, these footnotes are non Scriptural. Below is a site to the complete story as to how the 'Rapture Doctrine' came about, all John Darby: Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD (bible.ca)

 

[arthurfleminger]

Here is some info on the origin of the doctrine of the Rapture, John Darby invented the concept and the Scofield Bible gave it legitimacy by putting the concept in their Bible footnotes. It is really easy to verify this through research as to the origin of the Rapture doctrine, just Google it and you'll find they all point to the same origin.

"Darby's pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the [rapture doctrine], even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history"

Both Darby and Scofield claimed that the "day of Christ" refers to the rapture and that "the day of the Lord" refers to the actual second coming several years after the rapture.

I