Are we in the end times ?
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"the time is NEAR" for just what exactly (per the text)? You're trying to suggest that (v.1's) "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" is the Subject [/events] which are what is "NEAR" (v.3)... but does the text state this??
I think it is imperative to get verse 1's wording correct (and understand exactly how it ties in with the wording of vv.1:19c and 4:1; and is distinguished from v.19b and v.19a), before one starts out the gate incorrectly assuming (as many do) that v.1 is saying "things which must come to pass SOON [ADVERB; or QUICKLY-ADVERB; or IMMEDIATELY-ADVERB; etc]"... which it does NOT say (v.1).
Please note that the word "G3195 - mello" can legitimately be interpreted as "SURE [to]" take place / "CERTAIN [to]" happen (because prophesied to take place)... See here:
[quoting from Bible Hub page]
HELPS Word-studies
3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, "about to happen." 3195 (méllō) is used "in general of what is sure to happen" (J. Thayer)."
-- https://biblehub.com/greek/3195.htm
[end quoting from Bible Hub page; bold and underline mine]
So verse 19 can be translated (and I believe should be): "... [a] the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and
[c] the things which are SURE [mellei / mello - G3195] to take place [G1096] after these [meta tauta]." [/B]
COMPARE:
-- 1:19c ^ (shown above)...with both 1:1's "[to SHOW unto His servants] things which MUST [G1163] come to pass / take place [G1096] in quickness [noun]"; AND
-- 4:1's "SHOW" / "what things MUST [G1163] to take place [G1096] after these [meta tauta]"
[note: "the things WHICH ARE" are NOT said of them that they are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," by contrast]
I think that grasping what v.19 a, b, c is covering, will aid one in understanding that not ALL of what John was given to "WRITE" (in this Book) falls under "[1:1's TO SHOW UNTO...]... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...
... ONLY the 4:1+ "SHOW" things he was to be "SHOW[N]" (what things must to take place "AFTER THESE"--see 4:1) falls into that category
(which is also what 1:19c speaks of ["what things which are SURE [mello / mellei] to take place [G1096] AFTER THESE [meta tauta]"], ...but not 1:19a and 1:19b... re: which he was ALSO to "WRITE" [see also vv.2-3 considered together... "bare record" / "that readeth" / "hear the words of" / "written therein" (i.e. the writing itself)... that's the Subject of v.3... distinct from 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 "things which must take place after these" (i.e. happenings he was to be "SHOW[N]")])
I think it is imperative to get verse 1's wording correct (and understand exactly how it ties in with the wording of vv.1:19c and 4:1; and is distinguished from v.19b and v.19a), before one starts out the gate incorrectly assuming (as many do) that v.1 is saying "things which must come to pass SOON [ADVERB; or QUICKLY-ADVERB; or IMMEDIATELY-ADVERB; etc]"... which it does NOT say (v.1).
Please note that the word "G3195 - mello" can legitimately be interpreted as "SURE [to]" take place / "CERTAIN [to]" happen (because prophesied to take place)... See here:
[quoting from Bible Hub page]
HELPS Word-studies
3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, "about to happen." 3195 (méllō) is used "in general of what is sure to happen" (J. Thayer)."
-- https://biblehub.com/greek/3195.htm
[end quoting from Bible Hub page; bold and underline mine]
So verse 19 can be translated (and I believe should be): "... [a] the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and
[c] the things which are SURE [mellei / mello - G3195] to take place [G1096] after these [meta tauta]." [/B]
COMPARE:
-- 1:19c ^ (shown above)...with both 1:1's "[to SHOW unto His servants] things which MUST [G1163] come to pass / take place [G1096] in quickness [noun]"; AND
-- 4:1's "SHOW" / "what things MUST [G1163] to take place [G1096] after these [meta tauta]"
[note: "the things WHICH ARE" are NOT said of them that they are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," by contrast]
I think that grasping what v.19 a, b, c is covering, will aid one in understanding that not ALL of what John was given to "WRITE" (in this Book) falls under "[1:1's TO SHOW UNTO...]... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...
... ONLY the 4:1+ "SHOW" things he was to be "SHOW[N]" (what things must to take place "AFTER THESE"--see 4:1) falls into that category
(which is also what 1:19c speaks of ["what things which are SURE [mello / mellei] to take place [G1096] AFTER THESE [meta tauta]"], ...but not 1:19a and 1:19b... re: which he was ALSO to "WRITE" [see also vv.2-3 considered together... "bare record" / "that readeth" / "hear the words of" / "written therein" (i.e. the writing itself)... that's the Subject of v.3... distinct from 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 "things which must take place after these" (i.e. happenings he was to be "SHOW[N]")])
2 Thess 1 is talking about the judgment that will come when Jesus comes again. Interpretations that try to say that he came again when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem are not even worth arguing about.
38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’
Since they have not said that, it is obvious that Jesus did not come again yet. When he does there will be a movement in Israel to believe in Jesus prior to His coming. They will actually say this "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and when it happens people who understand this prophecy will say "this is that...." It will be a glorious day.
38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’
Since they have not said that, it is obvious that Jesus did not come again yet. When he does there will be a movement in Israel to believe in Jesus prior to His coming. They will actually say this "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and when it happens people who understand this prophecy will say "this is that...." It will be a glorious day.
"I" am no way implying that Jesus is a liar. What I stated is that those who refuse to honor His plain teaching and WORDS about His SOON return in His generation make Him a liar.
My interpretation is a biblical interpretation. Please ask a question that we can consider with Scripture instead of condemning outright.
It is NOT an Amillennial view. The millennium teaching of most churches today is based upon a rigid insistence on ONE THOUSAND years. This term is couched in a book of SYMBOLS and, therefore, does not require an actual span of one thousand years. Large rounded numbers are consistently found in Scripture as symbolic. The "one thousand years" is representative of the 40-year span between Jesus' ascension and return. Forty is also a very symbolic number used to define a time of testing or of a change in God's dealings with His people.
Jesus and His apostles made numerous statements concerning His return. These are unfortunately twisted or ignored by most Christians. At the heart of this rejection is the misconception of the NATURE of the Parousia, the Resurrection, and the Judgment. The futurist understanding of these events will never find harmony with the timing. Scripture is clear that the Second Coming of Christ in CLOUDS was not to be bodily or necessarily visible to everyone who has ever lived. Nor is the resurrection physical bodies popping up out of their graves. Furthermore, the Judgment was for a specific people (Old Covenant, apostate Jews guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth) and for a specific time--the time when the "elements" of Judaism and the Mosaic Law were "melted with fervent heat." A.D. 70!
When one understands the biblical nature of the Parousia, the Resurrection, and the Judgment, there is no disharmony with the clear timing. TIMING dictate NATURE. Futurists should refrain from foisting the tenets of their paradigm upon our beliefs. Disagree with our paradigm if you must, but please allow our tenets to speak for themselves.
My interpretation is a biblical interpretation. Please ask a question that we can consider with Scripture instead of condemning outright.
It is NOT an Amillennial view. The millennium teaching of most churches today is based upon a rigid insistence on ONE THOUSAND years. This term is couched in a book of SYMBOLS and, therefore, does not require an actual span of one thousand years. Large rounded numbers are consistently found in Scripture as symbolic. The "one thousand years" is representative of the 40-year span between Jesus' ascension and return. Forty is also a very symbolic number used to define a time of testing or of a change in God's dealings with His people.
Jesus and His apostles made numerous statements concerning His return. These are unfortunately twisted or ignored by most Christians. At the heart of this rejection is the misconception of the NATURE of the Parousia, the Resurrection, and the Judgment. The futurist understanding of these events will never find harmony with the timing. Scripture is clear that the Second Coming of Christ in CLOUDS was not to be bodily or necessarily visible to everyone who has ever lived. Nor is the resurrection physical bodies popping up out of their graves. Furthermore, the Judgment was for a specific people (Old Covenant, apostate Jews guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth) and for a specific time--the time when the "elements" of Judaism and the Mosaic Law were "melted with fervent heat." A.D. 70!
When one understands the biblical nature of the Parousia, the Resurrection, and the Judgment, there is no disharmony with the clear timing. TIMING dictate NATURE. Futurists should refrain from foisting the tenets of their paradigm upon our beliefs. Disagree with our paradigm if you must, but please allow our tenets to speak for themselves.
You have neglected an essential element of 2 Thessalonians 1. To whom is Paul writing and whom is he addressing. He is commending them for the great persecution they are suffering. His words of comfort are to them and to them alone. THEY were to be rescued and vindicated. Paul is clear that that vindication would come in THEIR lifetime when THEY saw His appearing. God was going to repay those who persecuted THEM with the very same kind of abuse--and then some. That happened in A.D. 70 and it very much affected those THESSALONIANS of Paul's day.
We do err when we refuse to acknowledge AUDIENCE RELEVANCE and make everything about us. Second Thessalonians is NOT about us.
When did the Jews say "Blessed in he who comes in the name of the Lord?"
To whom is Paul writing in 2 Thessalonians 2:1? He is writing to those very Thessalonians of HIS day. He commends them for their faith and their steadfastness in the midst of severe persecution. His words of comfort to THEM is that God will rescue THEM and He will vindicate THEM. God would inflict upon THEIR persecutors the very same abuses they had brought to the Thessalonians. When was that to happen? AT THE LORD'S APPEARING--at the apokalupsei (revealed). In their lifetime, Jesus would be "revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance . . . ." This is similar language to the words Jesus spoke to His disciples on the Mount of Olives--predictions that were to be fulfilled in HIS generation. There is no justification for making any of this about us. It is clearly something personal to THOSE Thessalonians. That is the context; that is the audience relevance.
Matthew 23:39 follows perfectly with the narrative and the TIMING of that which Jesus had just said. That generation of apostate Jews were "guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth" and it was to be severely and finally judged. Jesus has just told them that their House (the Temple) would be left unto THEM desolate in that judgment that would occur in their own generation. There is no time change in verse 39. Jesus told those vipers and whitewashed tombs of that generation that THEY would see Him at the time when they said "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." When did they say that? It was said during one of the feast days (Psa. 118:26). Jesus is in no way indicating a time of repentance by Israel, but rather, He is giving them a general time frame when HIS judgment would come upon them. He would come to vindicate the saints of His day (e.g., the Thessalonians of 2 Thes. 2) and to judge apostate Israel when they are singing in rebellious sinfulness "Blessed in he who comes in the name of the Lord." They would not be singing it from faith or repentance.
We do err when we refuse to acknowledge AUDIENCE RELEVANCE and make everything about us. Second Thessalonians is NOT about us.
When did the Jews say "Blessed in he who comes in the name of the Lord?"
To whom is Paul writing in 2 Thessalonians 2:1? He is writing to those very Thessalonians of HIS day. He commends them for their faith and their steadfastness in the midst of severe persecution. His words of comfort to THEM is that God will rescue THEM and He will vindicate THEM. God would inflict upon THEIR persecutors the very same abuses they had brought to the Thessalonians. When was that to happen? AT THE LORD'S APPEARING--at the apokalupsei (revealed). In their lifetime, Jesus would be "revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance . . . ." This is similar language to the words Jesus spoke to His disciples on the Mount of Olives--predictions that were to be fulfilled in HIS generation. There is no justification for making any of this about us. It is clearly something personal to THOSE Thessalonians. That is the context; that is the audience relevance.
Matthew 23:39 follows perfectly with the narrative and the TIMING of that which Jesus had just said. That generation of apostate Jews were "guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth" and it was to be severely and finally judged. Jesus has just told them that their House (the Temple) would be left unto THEM desolate in that judgment that would occur in their own generation. There is no time change in verse 39. Jesus told those vipers and whitewashed tombs of that generation that THEY would see Him at the time when they said "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." When did they say that? It was said during one of the feast days (Psa. 118:26). Jesus is in no way indicating a time of repentance by Israel, but rather, He is giving them a general time frame when HIS judgment would come upon them. He would come to vindicate the saints of His day (e.g., the Thessalonians of 2 Thes. 2) and to judge apostate Israel when they are singing in rebellious sinfulness "Blessed in he who comes in the name of the Lord." They would not be singing it from faith or repentance.
You have neglected an essential element of 2 Thessalonians 1. To whom is Paul writing and whom is he addressing. He is commending them for the great persecution they are suffering. His words of comfort are to them and to them alone. THEY were to be rescued and vindicated. Paul is clear that that vindication would come in THEIR lifetime when THEY saw His appearing. God was going to repay those who persecuted THEM with the very same kind of abuse--and then some. That happened in A.D. 70 and it very much affected those THESSALONIANS of Paul's day.
We do err when we refuse to acknowledge AUDIENCE RELEVANCE and make everything about us. Second Thessalonians is NOT about us.
When did the Jews say "Blessed in he who comes in the name of the Lord?"
I anticipated your argument. It is the same reasoning used by the translators when they allowed their FUTURIST bias to enter their rendering of MELLO. It is interesting to note that in most non-eschatological passages, the appears as "about to." In eschatological verses it is weakened with a simple futurist tense. Here are a few of the many examples of that bias.
1. Matt. 16:27, 28.
YLT: For, the Son of Man is ABOUT TO come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. CLNT (Concordant Living New Testament): For the Son of Mankind is ABOUT TO be coming in the glory of His Father, with His messengers, and then He will be paying each in accord with his practice.
2. Luke 21:36.
YLT: Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are ABOUT TO come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.’
CLNT: Now be vigilant on every occasion beseeching that you may be prevailing to escape all these things which are ABOUT TO occur and to stand in front of the Son of Mankind.
3. Acts 17:31 ESV:
YLT: He did set a day in which He is ABOUT TO judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.’
CLNT: He is ABOUT TO be judging the inhabited earth in righteousness by the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, raising hIm from among the dead—
4. Acts 24: 15
YLT: having hope toward God… [that] there is ABOUT TO be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.
CLNT: Having an expectation in God … that there shall be a resurrection which is IMPENDING for both the just and the unjust.
5. Acts 24:25
YLT: … he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and the judgment that is ABOUT TO be…
CLNT: …he is arguing concerning righteousness and self-control, and the IMPENDING judgment…
6. Romans 8:18-19
YLT: For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory ABOUT TO be revealed in us,
CLNT: For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory ABOUT TO be revealed for us.
7. II Tim. 4:1-2a
YLT: I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is ABOUT TO judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign; preach the word;
CLNT: I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus, who is ABOUT TO be judging the living and the dead, in accord with His advent and His kingdom:
8. Heb. 1:13-14.
YLT: And unto which of the messengers said He ever, ‘Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?’ 14 are they not all spirits of service — for ministration being sent forth because of those ABOUG TO inherit salvation?
CLNT: Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, “Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet”? Are they not all ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are ABOUT TO be enjoying the allotment of salvation?
9. Heb 10:26-27
YLT: For we -- willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, ABOUT TO devour the opposers;
CLNT: For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, ABOUT TO be eating the hostile.
10. I Peter 5:1.
YLT: Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory ABOUT TO be revealed a partaker.
CLNT: The elders, then, among you I am entreating who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a participant of the glory about to be revealed.
11. Rev. 1:19
YLT: ‘Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO come after these things;
CLNT: Write then, what you perceived, and what they are, and what is ABOUT TO be occurring after these things
12. Rev. 3:10-11a.
YLT: Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is ABOUT TO come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. 11Lo, I come quickly,
CLNT: Seeing that you keep the word of My endurance, I, also, will be keeping you out of the hour of trial which is ABOUT TO be coming on the whole inhabited earth to try those dwelling on the earth. I am coming swiftly.
13. Rev. 12:5.
YLT: and she brought forth a male child, who is ABOUT TO rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne.
CLNT: And she brought forth a son, a male, who is ABOUT TO be shepherding all the nations with an iron club.
We do err when we refuse to acknowledge AUDIENCE RELEVANCE and make everything about us. Second Thessalonians is NOT about us.
When did the Jews say "Blessed in he who comes in the name of the Lord?"
I anticipated your argument. It is the same reasoning used by the translators when they allowed their FUTURIST bias to enter their rendering of MELLO. It is interesting to note that in most non-eschatological passages, the appears as "about to." In eschatological verses it is weakened with a simple futurist tense. Here are a few of the many examples of that bias.
1. Matt. 16:27, 28.
YLT: For, the Son of Man is ABOUT TO come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. CLNT (Concordant Living New Testament): For the Son of Mankind is ABOUT TO be coming in the glory of His Father, with His messengers, and then He will be paying each in accord with his practice.
2. Luke 21:36.
YLT: Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are ABOUT TO come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.’
CLNT: Now be vigilant on every occasion beseeching that you may be prevailing to escape all these things which are ABOUT TO occur and to stand in front of the Son of Mankind.
3. Acts 17:31 ESV:
YLT: He did set a day in which He is ABOUT TO judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.’
CLNT: He is ABOUT TO be judging the inhabited earth in righteousness by the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, raising hIm from among the dead—
4. Acts 24: 15
YLT: having hope toward God… [that] there is ABOUT TO be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.
CLNT: Having an expectation in God … that there shall be a resurrection which is IMPENDING for both the just and the unjust.
5. Acts 24:25
YLT: … he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and the judgment that is ABOUT TO be…
CLNT: …he is arguing concerning righteousness and self-control, and the IMPENDING judgment…
6. Romans 8:18-19
YLT: For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory ABOUT TO be revealed in us,
CLNT: For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory ABOUT TO be revealed for us.
7. II Tim. 4:1-2a
YLT: I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is ABOUT TO judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign; preach the word;
CLNT: I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus, who is ABOUT TO be judging the living and the dead, in accord with His advent and His kingdom:
8. Heb. 1:13-14.
YLT: And unto which of the messengers said He ever, ‘Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?’ 14 are they not all spirits of service — for ministration being sent forth because of those ABOUG TO inherit salvation?
CLNT: Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, “Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet”? Are they not all ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are ABOUT TO be enjoying the allotment of salvation?
9. Heb 10:26-27
YLT: For we -- willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, ABOUT TO devour the opposers;
CLNT: For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, ABOUT TO be eating the hostile.
10. I Peter 5:1.
YLT: Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory ABOUT TO be revealed a partaker.
CLNT: The elders, then, among you I am entreating who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a participant of the glory about to be revealed.
11. Rev. 1:19
YLT: ‘Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO come after these things;
CLNT: Write then, what you perceived, and what they are, and what is ABOUT TO be occurring after these things
12. Rev. 3:10-11a.
YLT: Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is ABOUT TO come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. 11Lo, I come quickly,
CLNT: Seeing that you keep the word of My endurance, I, also, will be keeping you out of the hour of trial which is ABOUT TO be coming on the whole inhabited earth to try those dwelling on the earth. I am coming swiftly.
13. Rev. 12:5.
YLT: and she brought forth a male child, who is ABOUT TO rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne.
CLNT: And she brought forth a son, a male, who is ABOUT TO be shepherding all the nations with an iron club.
...but in the process of anticipating my argument on the word "mello" (carrying also the meaning, "SURE [to]"), you've quickly forgotten the previous point I made, concerning:
-- the SEQUENCE issues in His Olivet Discourse;
--which has Lk21:12 saying "But BEFORE ALL these [before all these beginning of birth pangs just-previously described in vv.8-11 (cf Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8)]," so BEFORE ALL THOSE, ...the events of vv.12-24 [70ad events] must take place BEFORE ALL those "beginning of birth pangs" (how does your Preterist viewpoint explain this: that the 70ad events [vv.12-24a,b] come BEFORE ALL"the beginning of birth pangs" rather than the beginning of birth pangs leading UP TO the events of 70ad, as many suppose to be the case?);
--and that "the beginning of birth pangs" ARE EQUIVALENT TO the "seals" of Revelation 6 (at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period--[SEQUENTIALLY coming AFTER the 70ad events, recall])...
...[and we see the "24 elders" saying, in 5:9, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out-of EVERY..." (said by them UP IN HEAVEN *before* the FIRST SEAL is opened at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev5:6; Lam2:3-4(2Th1:8); etc...] by His opening the "first seal"...)];
--and that (per my other posts elsewhere, perhaps not in *this* thread), what comes AFTER "the beginning of birth pangs" (which themselves come AFTER the 70ad events) is, what Jesus called, "the AOD [singular / singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet," which can ONLY BE the one (AOD [singular / singular]) spoken of in Daniel 12:11 ("AOD SET UP [H5414]"... and involving a certain set of "day-amounts"), and where then v.13 has Daniel being told he would "rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected ('to stand again' [on the earth])] at the END of the DAYS [at the END of the "days" referred to IN THAT CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1,12,[NOT vv.2-3, which is a SEPARATE ISSUE ALTOGETHER, those 2 verses not dealing with a PHYSICAL/BODILY 'resurrection' FROM having been formerly physically/bodily DEAD, like v.13 DOES speak to... NO], etc); In view of this, I do not see where Daniel was "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" at the END of the days, supposedly IN 70ad!;
--and a host of other problems concerning the Preterist viewpoint that I won't get into in this post (this post is already lengthy enough... and most ppl gloss over lengthy posts
)
-- the SEQUENCE issues in His Olivet Discourse;
--which has Lk21:12 saying "But BEFORE ALL these [before all these beginning of birth pangs just-previously described in vv.8-11 (cf Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8)]," so BEFORE ALL THOSE, ...the events of vv.12-24 [70ad events] must take place BEFORE ALL those "beginning of birth pangs" (how does your Preterist viewpoint explain this: that the 70ad events [vv.12-24a,b] come BEFORE ALL"the beginning of birth pangs" rather than the beginning of birth pangs leading UP TO the events of 70ad, as many suppose to be the case?);
--and that "the beginning of birth pangs" ARE EQUIVALENT TO the "seals" of Revelation 6 (at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period--[SEQUENTIALLY coming AFTER the 70ad events, recall])...
...[and we see the "24 elders" saying, in 5:9, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out-of EVERY..." (said by them UP IN HEAVEN *before* the FIRST SEAL is opened at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev5:6; Lam2:3-4(2Th1:8); etc...] by His opening the "first seal"...)];
--and that (per my other posts elsewhere, perhaps not in *this* thread), what comes AFTER "the beginning of birth pangs" (which themselves come AFTER the 70ad events) is, what Jesus called, "the AOD [singular / singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet," which can ONLY BE the one (AOD [singular / singular]) spoken of in Daniel 12:11 ("AOD SET UP [H5414]"... and involving a certain set of "day-amounts"), and where then v.13 has Daniel being told he would "rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected ('to stand again' [on the earth])] at the END of the DAYS [at the END of the "days" referred to IN THAT CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1,12,[NOT vv.2-3, which is a SEPARATE ISSUE ALTOGETHER, those 2 verses not dealing with a PHYSICAL/BODILY 'resurrection' FROM having been formerly physically/bodily DEAD, like v.13 DOES speak to... NO], etc); In view of this, I do not see where Daniel was "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" at the END of the days, supposedly IN 70ad!;
--and a host of other problems concerning the Preterist viewpoint that I won't get into in this post (this post is already lengthy enough... and most ppl gloss over lengthy posts
)Consider:
"Here are a few of the many examples of that bias."
1. Matt. 16:27, 28
CLNT (Concordant Living New Testament) [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
For the Son of Mankind is SURE / CERTAIN TO be coming in the glory of His Father, with His messengers, and then He will be paying each in accord with his practice.
2. Luke 21:36
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Now be vigilant on every occasion beseeching that you may be prevailing to escape all these things which are SURE / CERTAIN TO occur and to stand in front of the Son of Mankind.
3. Acts 17:31
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
He is SURE / CERTAIN TO be judging the inhabited earth in righteousness by the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, raising hIm from among the dead—
4. Acts 24: 15
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Having an expectation in God … that there shall be a resurrection which is SURE / CERTAIN for both the just and the unjust.
5. Acts 24:25
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
…he is arguing concerning righteousness and self-control, and the SURE / CERTAIN judgment…
6. Romans 8:18-19
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory SURE / CERTAIN TO be revealed for us.
7. II Tim. 4:1-2a
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus, who is SURE / CERTAIN TO be judging the living and the dead, in accord with His advent and His kingdom:
8. Heb. 1:13-14
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, “Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet”? Are they not all ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are SURE / CERTAIN TO be enjoying the allotment of salvation?
9. Heb 10:26-27
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, SURE / CERTAIN TO be eating the hostile.
10. I Peter 5:1
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
The elders, then, among you I am entreating who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a participant of the glory SURE / CERTAIN TO be revealed.
11. Rev. 1:19
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Write then, what you perceived, and what they are, and what is SURE / CERTAIN TO be occurring after these things
12. Rev. 3:10-11a
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Seeing that you keep the word of My endurance, I, also, will be keeping you out of the hour of trial which is SURE / CERTAIN TO be coming on the whole inhabited earth to try those dwelling [G2730 - katoikountas] on the earth. I am coming swiftly.
13. Rev. 12:5
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
And she brought forth a son, a male, who is SURE / CERTAIN TO be shepherding all the nations with an iron club.
[with this last one, please read also Rev2:26-27 showing WHO ELSE will be given "power over the nations"..."with a rod/sceptre [see Heb1:8] of iron"... "even as I have received [perfect indicative] of my Father"; See also Rev12:5,13 regarding "the man child" / "the male [arsena / arren - G730]" (and "caught up [G726]" AS ONE [one entity]) and parallel to Micah 5:3--distinct from Micah 5:2 re Jesus' Own Birth--"3 Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time she which travaileth [identifying the woman] hath brought forth: THEN..."]
____________
Question: do you not believe that Revelation 19 speaks to a "future" event--yet "future" to us, from our perspective (what is commonly referred to as Christ's Second Coming to the earth)? Just wondering your viewpoint on Rev19. Thanks.
"Here are a few of the many examples of that bias."
1. Matt. 16:27, 28
CLNT (Concordant Living New Testament) [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
For the Son of Mankind is SURE / CERTAIN TO be coming in the glory of His Father, with His messengers, and then He will be paying each in accord with his practice.
2. Luke 21:36
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Now be vigilant on every occasion beseeching that you may be prevailing to escape all these things which are SURE / CERTAIN TO occur and to stand in front of the Son of Mankind.
3. Acts 17:31
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
He is SURE / CERTAIN TO be judging the inhabited earth in righteousness by the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, raising hIm from among the dead—
4. Acts 24: 15
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Having an expectation in God … that there shall be a resurrection which is SURE / CERTAIN for both the just and the unjust.
5. Acts 24:25
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
…he is arguing concerning righteousness and self-control, and the SURE / CERTAIN judgment…
6. Romans 8:18-19
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory SURE / CERTAIN TO be revealed for us.
7. II Tim. 4:1-2a
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus, who is SURE / CERTAIN TO be judging the living and the dead, in accord with His advent and His kingdom:
8. Heb. 1:13-14
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, “Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet”? Are they not all ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are SURE / CERTAIN TO be enjoying the allotment of salvation?
9. Heb 10:26-27
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, SURE / CERTAIN TO be eating the hostile.
10. I Peter 5:1
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
The elders, then, among you I am entreating who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a participant of the glory SURE / CERTAIN TO be revealed.
11. Rev. 1:19
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Write then, what you perceived, and what they are, and what is SURE / CERTAIN TO be occurring after these things
12. Rev. 3:10-11a
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
Seeing that you keep the word of My endurance, I, also, will be keeping you out of the hour of trial which is SURE / CERTAIN TO be coming on the whole inhabited earth to try those dwelling [G2730 - katoikountas] on the earth. I am coming swiftly.
13. Rev. 12:5
CLNT [placing "SURE [to]" where "mello" is used]:
And she brought forth a son, a male, who is SURE / CERTAIN TO be shepherding all the nations with an iron club.
[with this last one, please read also Rev2:26-27 showing WHO ELSE will be given "power over the nations"..."with a rod/sceptre [see Heb1:8] of iron"... "even as I have received [perfect indicative] of my Father"; See also Rev12:5,13 regarding "the man child" / "the male [arsena / arren - G730]" (and "caught up [G726]" AS ONE [one entity]) and parallel to Micah 5:3--distinct from Micah 5:2 re Jesus' Own Birth--"3 Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time she which travaileth [identifying the woman] hath brought forth: THEN..."]
____________
Question: do you not believe that Revelation 19 speaks to a "future" event--yet "future" to us, from our perspective (what is commonly referred to as Christ's Second Coming to the earth)? Just wondering your viewpoint on Rev19. Thanks.
...CONTINUED from last post ^ ...
Along with this point / question ^ , I thought I would also place here a post I've made in the past...
Consider:
[quoting old post]
1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Do you see any distinction between the phrases:
--"[JC] having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and
--"[JC] coming [present participle] in flesh"
[compare this "coming [present participle]" to that of same, found in 1Th1:10, for example]
[end quoting old post]
Along with this point / question ^ , I thought I would also place here a post I've made in the past...
Consider:
[quoting old post]
1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Do you see any distinction between the phrases:
--"[JC] having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and
--"[JC] coming [present participle] in flesh"
[compare this "coming [present participle]" to that of same, found in 1Th1:10, for example]
[end quoting old post]
Your interpretations speak for themselves. They are easy to dismiss by those you call "futurist" not because they were tainted by "futurists" books but because the plain reading of the scripture is enough to give us faith that Jesus is coming the power and Glory of the Father and in that day we will be transformed and transfigured as Peter taught. We have this expectation and hope by reading scriptures and we have the Holy Spirit to teach us, so that we can discern when an interpretation that Jesus already came in 70AD is a false teaching and we reject it.
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
That did not happen in 70AD. Any attempt to say that Jesus came back in the clouds visibly for those people who were spoken to, alone and that they were the ones who saw Jesus come back in the clouds already is a made up lie. And those that have the Holy Spirit know it is a lie. We have the Holy Spirit to teach us at least that much.
Of course one must consider who is speaking, and who is being spoken to, but that does not mean that we are not included in a promise that Jesus is coming again in the clouds in the Glory of the Father and that every eye shall see him is not for us.
We have this promise repeated to more than one group of believers. There comes a point when any reasonable thinking person understands when the promise it applicable to all churches and not just one, such as 2 Thess 1 when the promise to avenge the persecuted at His coming applies to all persecuted churches, from the first century, the middle ages, and today.
Everyone can read Acts 1:9 above and 2 Thess 1 and know that the coming of the Lord in these passages is still future.
When you say, we must consider who is being spoken to and then say it was not for us, we reject that as not true at all. We understand who is being spoken to and we also understand that it applies to us too.
Your reasoning is faulty because nothing was written to you personally. You can't apply any of it to you. You might as well just quit reading the bible if you can't apply it to yourself because it was not spoken to you directly.
We know when to apply it to us and when not to based on rules of hermeneutics. 2 Thess 1 applied to their situation but the truth that applied to their situation applied to any other church that was also suffering as they were, which we know were many of them.
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Now even you would agree that if the church at Thyatria, or Corinth, or Ephesus was suffering persecution (and they all did at some point even post 70AD) that this promise would be applicable to them also.
Therefore the day of the Lord when he comes in the glory of his power to recompense their adversaries and reward them and be admired in ALL OF HIS SAINTS is applicable to all of his saints. We understand this passage because we have so many others that go along with it. We will be glorified in that day and judgment will be poured out on the ungodly. It has not happened yet.
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
This is obviously about more than the Thessalonians. Any attempt to make it only about the Thessalonians is a flagrant attempt to wrestle the Word of God into fitting your own narrative and not what the author intended.
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
That did not happen in 70AD. Any attempt to say that Jesus came back in the clouds visibly for those people who were spoken to, alone and that they were the ones who saw Jesus come back in the clouds already is a made up lie. And those that have the Holy Spirit know it is a lie. We have the Holy Spirit to teach us at least that much.
Of course one must consider who is speaking, and who is being spoken to, but that does not mean that we are not included in a promise that Jesus is coming again in the clouds in the Glory of the Father and that every eye shall see him is not for us.
We have this promise repeated to more than one group of believers. There comes a point when any reasonable thinking person understands when the promise it applicable to all churches and not just one, such as 2 Thess 1 when the promise to avenge the persecuted at His coming applies to all persecuted churches, from the first century, the middle ages, and today.
Everyone can read Acts 1:9 above and 2 Thess 1 and know that the coming of the Lord in these passages is still future.
When you say, we must consider who is being spoken to and then say it was not for us, we reject that as not true at all. We understand who is being spoken to and we also understand that it applies to us too.
Your reasoning is faulty because nothing was written to you personally. You can't apply any of it to you. You might as well just quit reading the bible if you can't apply it to yourself because it was not spoken to you directly.
We know when to apply it to us and when not to based on rules of hermeneutics. 2 Thess 1 applied to their situation but the truth that applied to their situation applied to any other church that was also suffering as they were, which we know were many of them.
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Now even you would agree that if the church at Thyatria, or Corinth, or Ephesus was suffering persecution (and they all did at some point even post 70AD) that this promise would be applicable to them also.
Therefore the day of the Lord when he comes in the glory of his power to recompense their adversaries and reward them and be admired in ALL OF HIS SAINTS is applicable to all of his saints. We understand this passage because we have so many others that go along with it. We will be glorified in that day and judgment will be poured out on the ungodly. It has not happened yet.
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
This is obviously about more than the Thessalonians. Any attempt to make it only about the Thessalonians is a flagrant attempt to wrestle the Word of God into fitting your own narrative and not what the author intended.
Some of us have a slightly differing viewpoint of just what "the fig tree" [in the parables] speaks to... I just re-posted a brief comment on that in a different thread (toward the bottom of that post):
Post #148 (toward bottom of the post, where it says "caveat," re: "the fig tree") - https://christianchat.com/threads/an-analysis-on-the-144-000-in-revelation.204640/post-4804967
Post #148 (toward bottom of the post, where it says "caveat," re: "the fig tree") - https://christianchat.com/threads/an-analysis-on-the-144-000-in-revelation.204640/post-4804967
Yes, I agree with your basic point here, though we differ as to just what "the times of the Gentiles [be fulfilled]" refers to:
--my view: "the times of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" which started in 606/605bc (Neb's dream / statue / image... with Neb as "head of gold"), and pertains to the phrase "Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..." (and which phrase is distinct from "the fulness of the Gentiles [be come in]"); "the times of the Gentiles" will not be concluded until Christ's Second Coming to the earth (and I believe this RELATES to the verse saying, "[when they behold the beast] that WAS, and IS NOT [at the time written], and YET SHALL BE [future tense]"--which does NOT "fit" an early writing of Revelation (b/f 70ad), nor a "70ad fulfillment" of all prophecy, as the Preterist viewpoint has it;
--your view (if I recall correctly): "the times of the Gentiles"=essentially what is also commonly known as "the Church age" (Gentiles coming to faith in Christ" [since the Cross, basically... i.e. starting instead from the first century])... which, when it comes to "TIMING" considerations (alone), amounts to the same general conclusion as to its END-point (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), albeit via differing means (i.e. how things will unfold and what that looks like)
But yes, I AGREE that Luke 21:32's "TILL ALL shall have taken place" MUST NECESSARILY include the items that v.24 had already just spelled out! Right!!
--my view: "the times of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" which started in 606/605bc (Neb's dream / statue / image... with Neb as "head of gold"), and pertains to the phrase "Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..." (and which phrase is distinct from "the fulness of the Gentiles [be come in]"); "the times of the Gentiles" will not be concluded until Christ's Second Coming to the earth (and I believe this RELATES to the verse saying, "[when they behold the beast] that WAS, and IS NOT [at the time written], and YET SHALL BE [future tense]"--which does NOT "fit" an early writing of Revelation (b/f 70ad), nor a "70ad fulfillment" of all prophecy, as the Preterist viewpoint has it;
--your view (if I recall correctly): "the times of the Gentiles"=essentially what is also commonly known as "the Church age" (Gentiles coming to faith in Christ" [since the Cross, basically... i.e. starting instead from the first century])... which, when it comes to "TIMING" considerations (alone), amounts to the same general conclusion as to its END-point (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), albeit via differing means (i.e. how things will unfold and what that looks like)
But yes, I AGREE that Luke 21:32's "TILL ALL shall have taken place" MUST NECESSARILY include the items that v.24 had already just spelled out! Right!!
Yes, I agree with your basic point here, though we differ as to just what "the times of the Gentiles [be fulfilled]" refers to:
--my view: "the times of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" which started in 606/605bc (Neb's dream / statue / image... with Neb as "head of gold"), and pertains to the phrase "Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..." (and which phrase is distinct from "the fulness of the Gentiles [be come in]"); "the times of the Gentiles" will not be concluded until Christ's Second Coming to the earth (and I believe this RELATES to the verse saying, "[when they behold the beast] that WAS, and IS NOT [at the time written], and YET SHALL BE [future tense]"--which does NOT "fit" an early writing of Revelation (b/f 70ad), nor a "70ad fulfillment" of all prophecy, as the Preterist viewpoint has it;
--your view (if I recall correctly): "the times of the Gentiles"=essentially what is also commonly known as "the Church age" (Gentiles coming to faith in Christ" [since the Cross, basically... i.e. starting instead from the first century])... which, when it comes to "TIMING" considerations (alone), amounts to the same general conclusion as to its END-point (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), albeit via differing means (i.e. how things will unfold and what that looks like)
But yes, I AGREE that Luke 21:32's "TILL ALL shall have taken place" MUST NECESSARILY include the items that v.24 had already just spelled out! Right!!
--my view: "the times of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" which started in 606/605bc (Neb's dream / statue / image... with Neb as "head of gold"), and pertains to the phrase "Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..." (and which phrase is distinct from "the fulness of the Gentiles [be come in]"); "the times of the Gentiles" will not be concluded until Christ's Second Coming to the earth (and I believe this RELATES to the verse saying, "[when they behold the beast] that WAS, and IS NOT [at the time written], and YET SHALL BE [future tense]"--which does NOT "fit" an early writing of Revelation (b/f 70ad), nor a "70ad fulfillment" of all prophecy, as the Preterist viewpoint has it;
--your view (if I recall correctly): "the times of the Gentiles"=essentially what is also commonly known as "the Church age" (Gentiles coming to faith in Christ" [since the Cross, basically... i.e. starting instead from the first century])... which, when it comes to "TIMING" considerations (alone), amounts to the same general conclusion as to its END-point (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), albeit via differing means (i.e. how things will unfold and what that looks like)
But yes, I AGREE that Luke 21:32's "TILL ALL shall have taken place" MUST NECESSARILY include the items that v.24 had already just spelled out! Right!!
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in past has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." (NKJV)
So there's a "blindness of Israel" during the REST of the times of the Gentiles. Without Yeshua, they were like blind leading the blind, and both fell into a ditch. This much is proven by history, as early as the apostolic church period, during Paul's missionary trips, it was always these local Jewish mobs who incited violence against him.
