Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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cv5

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Who do you think was getting married in Heaven just before Jesus led the armies of Heaven to Earth?

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
To be more precise the already married (shout/snatch has occurred seven years prior) WIFE is being prepared and arrayed in fine linen for the wedding SUPPER "phase" of the marriage.

Jesus' Kingdom parables make it perfectly clear that He is an ALREADY MARRIED MAN when He arrives at His Second Coming.

-the 3rd cup of the so-called Last Supper was in fact the marriage proposal and betrothal, that which the disciples clearly understood (chupah).
-Jesus pays the bride price at His crucifixion
-Jesus returns to the Father's house, and provides the arrabon (down payment) at Pentecost
-Jesus will soon return with a shout and the harpazo, taking His wife to the Father's house for the 7 day/year marriage consummation.
-Jesus returns with His already married wife at the Second Coming

Evidently the post-tribbers refuse to understand the patently obvious facts of the matter. Willful obstinant denial? You be the judge.
 

cv5

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What, exactly, has the wife "made herself ready" for?
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
You are mistaken. Comparing scripture with scripture it is perfectly clear that it is the WEDDING SUPPER which is being indicated here in Rev 19. This "second phase" (undoubtedly typical of a Jewish wedding sequence) is DISTINCT from the "consummation phase" that follows the much earlier BETROTHAL (this betrothal marriage contract given/received at the so-called Last Supper). This consummation occurs at the rapture, where the bride of Christ is harpazo-ed to the Father's house, where the couple enjoy a seven year intimate "knowing".
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
What, exactly, has the wife "made herself ready" for?
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
You are mistaken. Comparing scripture with scripture it is perfectly clear that it is the WEDDING SUPPER which is being indicated here in Rev 19.
Yes, it is. And from the wording, it is just as clear that it is ABOUT to occur. Not that is IS occurring before Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent, which is the last part of the chapter.

This "second phase" (undoubtedly typical of a Jewish wedding sequence) is DISTINCT from the "consummation phase" that follows the much earlier BETROTHAL (this betrothal marriage contract given/received at the so-called Last Supper). This consummation occurs at the rapture, where the bride of Christ is harpazo-ed to the Father's house, where the couple enjoy a seven year intimate "knowing".
There is no "rapture". There IS a gathering, or being caught up to the air for living believers to be changed and made immortal. But there is NO glorified trip to heaven. Or, if that is a true event, please share any verse that says so in plain words.

A lot of people get all wrapped up in Jewish customs, etc. My focus is simply on the timeline of end times. What is the order of things.

The Bible repeatedly refers to the resurrection of believers in the singular. So there is just one. Not phases of them, etc.
Rev 20:5 specifically nails this singular resurrection AT the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1 specifically nails the resurrection also at the Second Advent.

So the basic timeline is: tribulation, Second Advent, with resurrection of all believers, Millennial reign of Christ, GWT judgment for all unbelievers, new heaven and new earth.
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
What, exactly, has the wife "made herself ready" for?
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Yes, it is. And from the wording, it is just as clear that it is ABOUT to occur. Not that is IS occurring before Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent, which is the last part of the chapter.


There is no "rapture". There IS a gathering, or being caught up to the air for living believers to be changed and made immortal. But there is NO glorified trip to heaven. Or, if that is a true event, please share any verse that says so in plain words.

A lot of people get all wrapped up in Jewish customs, etc. My focus is simply on the timeline of end times. What is the order of things.

The Bible repeatedly refers to the resurrection of believers in the singular. So there is just one. Not phases of them, etc.
Rev 20:5 specifically nails this singular resurrection AT the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1 specifically nails the resurrection also at the Second Advent.

So the basic timeline is: tribulation, Second Advent, with resurrection of all believers, Millennial reign of Christ, GWT judgment for all unbelievers, new heaven and new earth.
Of course the ALREADY MARRIED WIFE (already residing in heaven) of vv. 19:7 is preparing herself for the Second Coming wedding supper event ***ABOUT*** TO HAPPEN in verse 11. For the simple reason that the one action/verse precedes the other in terms of sequence.

I see your arguments are wearing thin. This of course is inevitable.
 
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Of course the ALREADY MARRIED WIFE (already residing in heaven) of vv. 19:7 is preparing herself for the Second Coming wedding supper event ***ABOUT*** TO HAPPEN in verse 11. For the simple reason that the one action/verse precedes the other in terms of sequence.

I see your arguments are wearing thin.
This is hilarious, actually. You are ASSUMING that a pretrib rapture occurred. No. Everyone in heaven in Rev 19 died to get there.

No one was raptured to heaven. In fact, NO ONE will be. Because the Bible does NOT describe any such event.

This of course is inevitable.
If you are so confident of a pretrib rapture, then all you need to do is provide one clear verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

This, of course, can't happen, which is inevitable, because the Bible doesn't have any verse that shows this.

How many events of believer resurrection are there? By that, I mean the believer receiving a glorified immortal body.

Please quote a verse for each one and provide the timeline, if you can.

Thanks.
 

cv5

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This is hilarious, actually. You are ASSUMING that a pretrib rapture occurred. No. Everyone in heaven in Rev 19 died to get there.

No one was raptured to heaven. In fact, NO ONE will be. Because the Bible does NOT describe any such event.


If you are so confident of a pretrib rapture, then all you need to do is provide one clear verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

This, of course, can't happen, which is inevitable, because the Bible doesn't have any verse that shows this.

How many events of believer resurrection are there? By that, I mean the believer receiving a glorified immortal body.

Please quote a verse for each one and provide the timeline, if you can.

Thanks.
So you are saying there is zero correlation between the Jewish wedding ceremony protocols and the Church of Jesus Messiah? I am sorry to hear that.

For my part I believe that there is a 100% perfect correlation between the Jewish wedding ceremony protocols and the Church of Jesus Messiah.

BTW......it is obvious that you are plagued with Greek thinking processes as regards Scripture. Little wonder you are all twisted up in knots.
 
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So you are saying there is zero correlation between the Jewish wedding ceremony protocols and the Church of Jesus Messiah? I am sorry to hear that.
You don't have to be sorry about anything. I'm not interested in correlations between Jewish customs/rituals and end times.

It seems lots of people have gotten all meshed up in them, trying to figure out things.

My single focus is on what the NT SAYS about end times. And the NT is very clear; there will a single resurrection of all believers, which occurs "when He comes" at the Second Advent.

1. single resurrection of the saved and single resurrection of the unsaved. John 5:28,29, and Acts 24:15
2. single resurrection of ALL saved at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4:17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5
3. single resurrection of the unsaved occurs at the GWT judgment. Rev 20:11-15

These facts cannot be contradicted by any verse in the Bible.

For my part I believe that there is a 100% perfect correlation between the Jewish wedding ceremony protocols and the Church of Jesus Messiah.
If so, what does it prove regarding a pretrib rapture?

Many of the pretribbers go all off track with "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23 and force some kind of harvest idea with resurrection of the saved.

BTW......it is obvious that you are plagued with Greek thinking processes as regards Scripture. Little wonder you are all twisted up in knots.
My my. The NT was written in Greek, and you have a problem with my 'Greek thinking processes'. Guilty a charged.

Why wouldn't ANY student of the Word of God be? Well, of course, many believers AREN'T. They just discount whatever the Greek grammar says. And stick with their favorite English translation, even paraphrased ones.
 

cv5

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1) I'm not interested in correlations between Jewish customs/rituals and end times.

2) If so, what does it prove regarding a pretrib rapture?

3) Many of the pretribbers go all off track with "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23 and force some kind of harvest idea with resurrection of the saved.
1) Which is why you haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

2) Everything

3) An intentionally prophetic OT-type that Paul elaborates upon, knowing full well the staggering gravitas and implications.

So you are saying that you do not understand (nor are you in the slightest bit interested in studying) the unassailable fact that the OT moedim "appoined times" of the Lord are intentionally pregnant with prophetic meaning (as are all the cleansing rituals....and myriad's of other intentionally prophetic types & symbols such as the bronze serpent, and Moses striking the Rock)???

And most importantly, you are saying that you do not understand how all of this has poignant and profound relevance to the Church and it's own inevitable prophetic pattern and eschatology?

Why do you persist in living a life of intentional ignorance? It makes no sense to me whatsoever.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
1) I'm not interested in correlations between Jewish customs/rituals and end times.

2) If so, what does it prove regarding a pretrib rapture?

3) Many of the pretribbers go all off track with "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23 and force some kind of harvest idea with resurrection of the saved.
1) Which is why you haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
Opinion noted.

2) Everything
And that is ALL you were able to respond with. You've proven nothing, again. You can opine "everything" all you want, but NOT until you actually provide verses that describe that glorified trip to heaven, you have nothing. (opposite of 'everything')

An intentionally prophetic OT-type that Paul elaborates upon, knowing full well the staggering gravitas and implications.
Again, opinion noted. There is nothing in the NT to support the idea of the resurrection paralleling a "harvest".

So you are saying that you do not understand (nor are you in the slightest bit interested in studying) the unassailable fact that the OT moedim "appoined times" of the Lord are intentionally pregnant with prophetic meaning (as are all the cleansing rituals....and myriad's of other intentionally prophetic types & symbols such as the bronze serpent, and Moses striking the Rock)???
What I actually said was that I'm not interested in them. I never sasid I don't understand them. I don't need any of them to prove that the singular resurrection of all saved people will occur WHEN Jesus Christ returns to earth. And I have verses that DO say what I believe.

I believe because the Bible SAYS. You have zero "rapture to heaven" verses.

What you have are innuendos, presumptions, guesses, etc.

And most importantly, you are saying that you do not understand how all of this has poignant and profound relevance to the Church and it's own inevitable prophetic pattern and eschatology?
Again, you didn't my comments very carefully. I SAID my focus was on the general timeline, which I gave.

Why do you persist in living a life of intentional ignorance? It makes no sense to me whatsoever.
What an ignorant snark! I never said I was ignorant of any of what you are solely focused on. I made that clear.

But you, either ignorantly or intentionally, made a FALSE statement about what I said.

After reading these forums for a very long time, I have found that those who focus on the things you focus on share a WIDE variance of views on how to equate OT patterns, etc with end times events.

Kinda like explaining a parable. Only the one who gives a parable knows exactly what he meant. No one else can claim that.

And parables can be taken a number of ways.

Again, if you are paying attention, my intention is to focus on a general timeline for end times. And I can PROVE what I believe with Scripture that says what I believe. (which is why I believe what I believe).

Those who disagree with my general timeline and try to refute me with OT information are off the rails because my information comes from the NT, which is when the end times occurs. The OT prophets didn't have the whole picture anyway.

Neither the OT or NT describes a resurrection/glorified trip to heaven.

If there was at least 1 clear verse, you'd have a point. But, as it is, you don't have a point.
 

cv5

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You said: "my information comes from the NT, which is when the end times occurs"

-end times so-called have not occurred yet

-OT prophecy is the future written in advance.....chock full of end time prophecy in MASSIVE OVERWHELMING QUANTITIES

-the book of Revelation is LOADED with OT types, fulfillments, OT fulfilled prophecy. Ultimately that is the foundational basis of the text

-the NT cannot be fully or properly understood without MASTERING the OT
 

Grace911

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Joh_4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

Yes, the LORD's Feast Days do matter, a whole bunch. To ignore them is to your own peril. What Holy Feast days has four months separating them? Shavuot/Pentecost to Feast of Trumpets/Rosh Hoshanah.

Mat_13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The wheat are LEFT BEHIND. The tares are taken (raptured) first and burned.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness).

Deu_10:13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
1Ch_28:8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
Neh_9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Psa_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Psa_119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.

When did God (ie the LORD) change His mind and made his LAWS bad/evil/amoral/corrupt?

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

If you do not understand the above, then please pray this Psalms
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
Psa 119:20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
Psa 119:21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

Whoever says there is no grace within the law, are without the law, and therefore are lawless and are the tares, and are the ones who will hear "I don't know you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
 
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I forgot this


1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Who was sleeping/asleep/dead when Christ was crucified that He became the first fruits of?
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

WHAT IS WRITTEN IS

CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD,
THOSE THAT SLEPT ALSO ROSE FROM THE DEAD.
CHRIST BECAME THE FIRST FRUTS OF THOSE who slept and WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

THIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD TOOK PLACE 2000 YEARS AGO







1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

We are told AGAIN RIGHT HERE THAT RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD TOOK PLACE.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All are going to be resurrected to face judgment. Just like Adam made everyone die, Christ will make everyone wake up from the dead. Many of those who were already dead when Christ rose up, rose up also. The resurrection from the dead came when Christ defeated death,

just like death comes for us all. Death doesn't wait to claim it's own 'till the end' and Christ doesn't wait to 'claim His own' till the end. Death came we die. Life came we live.

I set before you life and death, blessings and cursing's. Choose life.




As to your question

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

EVERY MAN is working towards A RANK. That RANK is anywhere between Vessel of Gold unto honor down to vessel of wood unto dishonor.

CHRIST THE FIRST FRUIT has the highest honor. He rises higher than anyone else ever will.

ALL those who are CHRISTS - those who while they yet live believe in Him - NEVER DIE and so follow Him to heaven, will be placed in their own order in heaven.

One way to see it
AND YOUR WORKS DO FOLLOW YOU.

Another way
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Now a days Satan has everyone keeping their eye on the free gift of Salvation and arguing over 'works salvation' to keep them from seeing what is really taking place.

Yeshua paid a HIGH price to make sure that SIN didn't let death take hold of us for even a short time. HE PAID THE PENALTY, tasted death for us. And everyone keeps thinking 'I'll just repent for my sins' and go to heaven WHICH IS TRUTH, but somehow everyone seems to miss THERE IS STILL a JUDGMENT to be made.

It is in JUDGMENT that ones' RANK or 'every man in his own order' or that BODY 'but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body' comes about. Some are happy just being saved. Some want to be a good workman for GOD. Some are aware of RANK, others have no clue.

Ever noticed how organized everything was when Jesus did something. Example of one is gave orders to have them sit in groups of fifty and then passed out the victuals. JUST LIKE THE MILITARY. LOTs about GOD is fashioned that way.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

6635. tsaba ►
Strong's Concordance
tsaba: army, war, warfare
Original Word: צָבָא
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: tsaba
Phonetic Spelling: (tsaw-baw')
Definition: army, war, warfare


organized for war
host (organized body) of angels
of the entire creation, כל צבאם Genesis 2:1

appointed time, army, battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon,
Or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from tsaba'; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. Organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship) -- appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).


FINALLY getting to my point...
5001. tagma ►
Strong's Concordance
tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
Original Word: τάγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tagma
Phonetic Spelling: (tag'-mah)
Definition: that which has been arranged in order, a division, rank
Usage: rank, division, an ordered series.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5001 tágma (a neuter noun) – an ordered arrangement, reflecting God's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation (it only occurs in 1 Cor 15:23). See 5021 (tassō).

5001 /tágma ("order") extends to the principle of God's ordering to its natural results.

[Compare Ps 139:16 with Eph 1:11; cf. Ps 119:89-91 with Ac 4:28, 17:26-31.]


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from tassó
Definition
that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
NASB Translation
order (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5001: τάγμα

τάγμα, ταγματος, τό (τάσσω);
a. properly, that which has been arranged, thing placed in order.

b. specifically, a body of soldiers, a corps: 2 Samuel 23:13; Xenophon, mem. 3, 1, 11; often in Polybius; Diodorus 17, 80; Josephus, b. j. 1, 9, 1; 3, 4, 2; (especially for the Roman 'legio' (examples in Sophocles Lexicon, under the word, 3)); hence, universally, a band, troop, class: ἕκαστος ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι (the same words occur in Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 37, 3 [ET] and 41, 1 [ET]), 1 Corinthians 15:23, where Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead (A. V. order. Of the 'order' of the Essenes in Josephus, b. j. 2, 8, 3. 8).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
division, class, group
From tasso; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession -- order.


Or, I could be wrong and it's just Christ rose first and since then everyman gets in line when he dies and he sees them then.
John 17:3
New King James Version


3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
 
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It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:

and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

NO terra firma in the heaven
I don't care about "terra firms" in heaven. Why did you bring it up?

The discussion was about bodies and souls.[/QUOTE]


Because you keep wanting the spiritual body to be of the EARTH


1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Currently we are 'bearing' the earth. When our 'earth' part dies, we then bear 'the heavenly'.

If our EARTH body were resurrected, WE WOULD JUST BE BEARING THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY TWICE

and the heavenly NEVER. [/QUOTE]
God's elect=Have a eternal body that is free from sinful flesh. Also see God, face to face.

Chasm.

Nonelects=Have a eternal body that will suffer in the lake of fire forever.
 
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I don't care about "terra firms" in heaven. Why did you bring it up?

Terra firma - dry land, when compared with the ocean or air -

I just used it for the 'earthen vessel', the dust of the earth of which our natural bodies are made. My apologies.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 
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Nonelects=Have a eternal body that will suffer in the lake of fire forever.

I disagree, for

1 - that would not be possible because the Lake of Fire takes place in this age and everything about this age will be done away with

and

2 - the ONLY ONES we are told 'forever and ever' are the beast the false prophet and the devil. ALL the rest are just THROWN IN, with NO MENTION of forever and ever.

and

3 - GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE.

BUT, I could be wrong, could have missed what you read and so look forward to what Scripture is giving you that information.



Scripture FOR my beliefs

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Notice there is no mention of any other 'souls' being tormented for ever and ever.


Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


They were cast in but no mention of being tormented forever and ever here either.


Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Again, no mention of them being tormented forever and ever here either.



Some have brought up these

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mark 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.


but we know that entering the kingdom of God takes place at the death of the earthen vessel, as does going to Hades and we know that death and hell will deliver up their dead and be cast into the lake of fire so that doesn't work for the forever and ever either


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.




Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 
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Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.

Matthew 25:46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
 
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THE DEAD will rise when Christ returns.

John 11:26 And WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND BELIEVETH IN ME SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?


THE FIRST WORDS of the ministry of Jesus are
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

What IS NEVER WRITTEN?

A single word about a pre trib rapture.

The words of God never once speak of a pre trib rapture

Jesus HIMSELF never mentions one word of a pre trib rapture

Paul specifically speaks against a pre trib rapture.

The entire PRE TRIB is CONJECTURE, and nothing but conjecture.



The pre trib rapture is NO DIFFERENT THAN claiming those who NEVER DIE are DEAD and be resurrected when THE DEAD RISE at His return.


TO RISE WITH THE DEAD REQUIRES ONE TO DIE. Makes me feel like an idiot even saying it.

It gets no more basic than that. Just like

to be pre trib raptured requires being raptured pre trib. To be raptured pre trib requires SOMETHING WRITTEN stating it. OTHERWISE it is of some personal interpretation of what is written.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


2398. idios ►
Strong's Concordance
idios: one's own, distinct
Original Word: ἴδιος, α, ν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: idios
Phonetic Spelling: (id'-ee-os)
Definition: one's own, distinct
Usage: one's own, belonging to one, private, personal; one's own people, one's own family, home, property.
HELPS Word-studies
2398 ídios (a primitive word, NAS dictionary) – properly, uniquely one's own, peculiar to the individual. 2398 /ídios ("uniquely one's own") is "stronger than the simple possessive pronoun ('own'). This emphatic adjective means 'private, personal' " (WS, 222).


NOT EVEN ONE'S OWN CHURCH




1955. epilusis ►
Strong's Concordance
epilusis: a release, an interpretation
Original Word: ἐπίλυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: epilusis
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-il'-oo-sis)
Definition: a release, an interpretation
Usage: solution, explanation, interpretation; release.
HELPS Word-studies
1955 epílysis (from 1909 /epí, "on, fitting" and 3089 /lýō, "to loose") – properly, unloosing (unpacking) in an apt (appropriate) manner, i.e. that builds on sound hermeneutical principles (note the epi, "upon").

1955 /epílysis ("sound interpretation") only occurs in 2 Pet 1:20 and refers to "untying interpretation knots" to discern the true meaning of future Bible prophecy.

[1956 (epilýō) is used throughout antiquity of solving problems, i.e. "getting to the bottom of things," "unraveling" the issue (see DNTT, 1, 156).]




One who NEVER DIES can NEVER BE DEAD so can never rise WITH 'THE DEAD' that RISE
so until there is a way in which someone who never dies can be made dead...it's all just an illusion, or delusion.
 
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Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.

Matthew 25:46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.


5769. olam ►
Strong's Concordance
olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity
 
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5769. olam ►
Strong's Concordance
olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity

And God is a consuming fire



2654. katanaliskó ►
Strong's Concordance
katanaliskó: to use up
Original Word: καταναλίσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katanaliskó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-an-al-is'-ko)
Definition: to use up
Usage: I use up, spend, consume (as with fire).
HELPS Word-studies
2654 katanalískō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 355 /analískō, "consume") – properly, consume all the way ("up to down"), i.e. exactly (decisively, conclusively). 2654 (katanalískō) means "to consume utterly, wholly (kata, intensive)" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 125) and only occurs in Heb 12:29.
 
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Some people will just have to see it before they believe it.

The bible is clear
There is only 2 resurrections of the dead.
One when Jesus comes and one after the 1000 years.

No secret one

Please show in the bible any other resurrections.
1st time God uses Great White Throne Judgment=Jesus pays the full penalty for all of God's elect sins=1st resurrection=The spiritual resurrection=God gives the Holy Spirit to all his elects.
2nd time God uses Great White Throne Judgment=2nd resurrection=nonelects/Satan's children died in their sins=God throws all nonelect into the lake of fire.