Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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All of your "annihilation" theory is debunked by Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The last sentence proves that the lake of fire will be torment for eternity. When "day and night" are added to "for ever and ever", we have a specific time frame for what "ever and ever" refers to. It refers to never ending time.
Whine all you want about souls being annihilated. Ain't gonna happen.
The lake of fire is also described as the second death. This refers to the fact that the resurrected physical carcass of unbelievers will die AGAIN when Jesus casts them into that lake of fire. However, their souls, like Satan and the 2 beasts, will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever".
And there is this:
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.
Matthew 25:46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
That is what the Bible says. You have a totally different view than the Bible.
There is NO everlasting punishment if the soul simply ceases to exist. Punishment requires conscious awareness.
If a person is in a coma, they experience NOTHING. They can't experience either happiness or sadness. Punishment would be MEANINGLESS for them.
The last sentence proves that the lake of fire will be torment for eternity. When "day and night" are added to "for ever and ever", we have a specific time frame for what "ever and ever" refers to. It refers to never ending time.
Whine all you want about souls being annihilated. Ain't gonna happen.
The lake of fire is also described as the second death. This refers to the fact that the resurrected physical carcass of unbelievers will die AGAIN when Jesus casts them into that lake of fire. However, their souls, like Satan and the 2 beasts, will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever".
And there is this:
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.
Matthew 25:46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
That is what the Bible says. You have a totally different view than the Bible.
There is NO everlasting punishment if the soul simply ceases to exist. Punishment requires conscious awareness.
If a person is in a coma, they experience NOTHING. They can't experience either happiness or sadness. Punishment would be MEANINGLESS for them.
FreeGrace2 said:
Punishment requires conscious awareness.
Your post didn't refute my statement nor prove yours.
How does punishment work if the one being punishes experiences NOTHING? Please explain that.
But, of course, you can't. As I pointed out, a person in a coma doesn't experience anything, and therefore, the entire concept of punishment is ridiculous for a person in a coma.
Punishment only works WHEN the person is experiencing it.
It is irrational to even think otherwise.
And, Rev 20:10 proves that those in the lake of fire will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever". That settles it.
Punishment requires conscious awareness.
Your post didn't refute my statement nor prove yours.
How does punishment work if the one being punishes experiences NOTHING? Please explain that.
But, of course, you can't. As I pointed out, a person in a coma doesn't experience anything, and therefore, the entire concept of punishment is ridiculous for a person in a coma.
Punishment only works WHEN the person is experiencing it.
It is irrational to even think otherwise.
And, Rev 20:10 proves that those in the lake of fire will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever". That settles it.
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Not my fault you can't accept what is written. USE GODS WORDS AND not your own and you will see you BELIEVE something that ISN'T WRITTEN and you are not willing to acknowledge that, nor any of the myriads of errors you put forth. I myself REFUSE to 'cherry pick' the verses that support MY BELIEFS while disregarding those that don't like you do.
Matthew 24:
40 Then two men will be in the field, one taken and one left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill, one taken and one left
do you think during the Tribulation, the time when you need the Mark of the Beast, Believers will be in the field with unbelievers at the Second Coming?
i don't see how Christians will be out in the open with the Beast trying to kill them or working at a job, or shopping without the MOB.
clearly these people are removed before the Beast takes power.
40 Then two men will be in the field, one taken and one left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill, one taken and one left
do you think during the Tribulation, the time when you need the Mark of the Beast, Believers will be in the field with unbelievers at the Second Coming?
i don't see how Christians will be out in the open with the Beast trying to kill them or working at a job, or shopping without the MOB.
clearly these people are removed before the Beast takes power.
FreeGrace2 said:
All of your "annihilation" theory is debunked by Rev 20:10
No, so says the Bible.
I understand it, alright. But it isn't biblically accurate. You can't get around Rev 20:10. It's clear enough for a grade schooler to understand.
Hm. What have you got that refutes the clear words of Rev 20:10?
I think you are choking on your "meat". You misunderstand how the word "death" is used.
Since Rev 20:10 uses the words "day and night", the Bible is clear about a TIME FRAME. And that time frame is "for ever and ever".
You CAN'T explain how an "eternal punishment" is experienced when there is no "one" there to experience it.
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.
Matthew 25:46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
These verses, along with Rev 20:10 refute your claim.
There simply is NO punishment IF the one being punished isn't even there. How silly.
All of your "annihilation" theory is debunked by Rev 20:10
No, so says the Bible.
I understand it, alright. But it isn't biblically accurate. You can't get around Rev 20:10. It's clear enough for a grade schooler to understand.
Hm. What have you got that refutes the clear words of Rev 20:10?
I think you are choking on your "meat". You misunderstand how the word "death" is used.
Since Rev 20:10 uses the words "day and night", the Bible is clear about a TIME FRAME. And that time frame is "for ever and ever".
You CAN'T explain how an "eternal punishment" is experienced when there is no "one" there to experience it.
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.
Matthew 25:46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
These verses, along with Rev 20:10 refute your claim.
There simply is NO punishment IF the one being punished isn't even there. How silly.
FreeGrace2 said:
The last sentence proves that the lake of fire will be torment for eternity. When "day and night" are added to "for ever and ever", we have a specific time frame for what "ever and ever" refers to. It refers to never ending time.
lol. I ACCEPT what is written. I've shared what is written over and over, and all you do is call it 'milk' as if you have 'meat' that refutes my milk. What a joke.
You CAN'T explain how everlasting punishment occurs when the one being punished isn't even there.
It isn't cherry picking. It's giving you verses that REFUTE your claim. Clearly.
The last sentence proves that the lake of fire will be torment for eternity. When "day and night" are added to "for ever and ever", we have a specific time frame for what "ever and ever" refers to. It refers to never ending time.
lol. I ACCEPT what is written. I've shared what is written over and over, and all you do is call it 'milk' as if you have 'meat' that refutes my milk. What a joke.
You CAN'T explain how everlasting punishment occurs when the one being punished isn't even there.
It isn't cherry picking. It's giving you verses that REFUTE your claim. Clearly.
FreeGrace2 said:
The lake of fire is also described as the second death. This refers to the fact that the resurrected physical carcass of unbelievers will die AGAIN when Jesus casts them into that lake of fire. However, their souls, like Satan and the 2 beasts, will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever".
This is just a very ridiculous claim.
Rev 20:10, Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:36 all REFUTE your claim.
You are deluded.
The lake of fire is also described as the second death. This refers to the fact that the resurrected physical carcass of unbelievers will die AGAIN when Jesus casts them into that lake of fire. However, their souls, like Satan and the 2 beasts, will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever".
This is just a very ridiculous claim.
Rev 20:10, Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:36 all REFUTE your claim.
You are deluded.
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FreeGrace2 said:
And there is this:
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.
OK, please explain Dean 12:2 and Matt 25:46 regarding "everlasting punishment".
If it doesn't mean a punishment that lasts forever, then what does it mean?
Or, IF you agree that it means exactly that, you really need to explain how someone who ISN'T THERE can even be punished. That's probably your bigger problem.
And there is this:
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake—some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting punishment.
OK, please explain Dean 12:2 and Matt 25:46 regarding "everlasting punishment".
If it doesn't mean a punishment that lasts forever, then what does it mean?
Or, IF you agree that it means exactly that, you really need to explain how someone who ISN'T THERE can even be punished. That's probably your bigger problem.
SO YOU SAY. But WHAT IS WRITTEN?
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
FORGET the words and THINK about what you are saying. MAN who's life is but a 'second' in the span of all eternity because he doesn't 'LOVE GOD' must spend the rest of all time in pain and sufferings.
That is like creating a rattlesnake and then when it bites you making it suffer FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER because IT DIDN'T STOP ITSELF.
Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2288. thanatos ►
Strong's Concordance
thanatos: death
Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Definition: death
Usage: death, physical or spiritual.
HELPS Word-studies
2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
That may not be good enough for you, and so we disagree. I will not be having any further discussions on the subject with you so go on about your name calling and put forth those narrow views, I have done as I am supposed to and now will follow through on the same.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
FORGET the words and THINK about what you are saying. MAN who's life is but a 'second' in the span of all eternity because he doesn't 'LOVE GOD' must spend the rest of all time in pain and sufferings.
That is like creating a rattlesnake and then when it bites you making it suffer FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER because IT DIDN'T STOP ITSELF.
Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2288. thanatos ►
Strong's Concordance
thanatos: death
Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Definition: death
Usage: death, physical or spiritual.
HELPS Word-studies
2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
That may not be good enough for you, and so we disagree. I will not be having any further discussions on the subject with you so go on about your name calling and put forth those narrow views, I have done as I am supposed to and now will follow through on the same.
You have been given the events that will be taking place. If you were to use that information NOW, then none of that would effect you would it? Take up your cross. You won't be the first to go through whatever. If you aren't prepared having been given tomorrows NEWS, then that would be on you, not GOD, wouldn't it?
Matthew 24 are the "Words" right out of the mouth of Jesus.
working in the field or the mill is the same at a warehouse, farming, machine shop, manufacturing, retail, food, medical, etc.
Jesus said in the Verses 40 and 41 Believer and non believer will be working together and one of them is taken away.
we know the circumstances about the Tribulation. to work, get medical, bank, shop you need Mark of the Beast. if you take the Mark of the Beast you spend eternity burning forever. so Verses 40 and 41 have to happen BEFORE the Mark of the Beast.
the mathematics are easy here. people will be removed before Tribulation begins and there will be more removed at the Second Coming (the beheaded in between).
Verses 40 and 41 are straight forward and Common Sense. if you use common Sense, you know this happens before Tribulation begins.
working in the field or the mill is the same at a warehouse, farming, machine shop, manufacturing, retail, food, medical, etc.
Jesus said in the Verses 40 and 41 Believer and non believer will be working together and one of them is taken away.
we know the circumstances about the Tribulation. to work, get medical, bank, shop you need Mark of the Beast. if you take the Mark of the Beast you spend eternity burning forever. so Verses 40 and 41 have to happen BEFORE the Mark of the Beast.
the mathematics are easy here. people will be removed before Tribulation begins and there will be more removed at the Second Coming (the beheaded in between).
Verses 40 and 41 are straight forward and Common Sense. if you use common Sense, you know this happens before Tribulation begins.
YOUR interpretations of what is written is the problem. YOU SAY they must be conscious, does GOD?
Why being separated from God isn't punishment enough for you I DON'T UNDERSTAND. If they aren't screaming in TOTAL pain forever and ever BECAUSE for a season they were evil, just doesn't work FOR YOU?
The GOD I have come to know and LOVE wouldn't want or need a lesser being, being in ETERNAL pain and suffering.
GOD will punish, NOT TORTURE, which is what YOU ARE REQUIRING. WHAT would be the point in that? That is nothing short of evil mean WICKED and nasty.
ARE YOU KIDDING? Would you make your dog suffer forever and ever because he chose another over you? NO, ITS JUST A DUMB DOG. Unless you yourself are so cruel something like that would seem RIGHTEOUS.
THE ONE TAKEN IS TAKEN BY LIES AND DECEPTION. You are trying to put what IS THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS FORTH AS IF it is the tribulation. BUT that isn't how it is written.
IF THERE WERE A PRE TRIB RAPTURE IT WOULD BE during the BEGINNING of SORROWS, not the tribulation, hence PRE TRIB.
Jesus FIRST words on the end time DO NOT BE DECEIVED by any man. AKA SOMEONE IS COMING TO DECEIVE YOU.
So let's see what is happening here.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
THE FALLEN ANGELS AND ALL THOSE WHO HAD MIXED WITH THEM AND THE GIANTS were all killed by the flood. But before the flood the angels had 'left their habitation' and had seen the 'daughters OF MEN. And they came and polluted the BLOODLINE through which Christ would be coming. ONLY MOSES was PERFECT in his generation aka no fallen angels mixing in his family.
So LIKEWISE when Satan and his angels are cast to the earth WOE to those on the earth... REMEMBER what the Lord said, Do not be deceived by any man. What message ARE THE CHURCHES supposed to be giving us? TO HIM WHO OVERCOMES.
What else do we know? There is one being sent to OVERCOME.
WHEN Satan comes to deceive the whole world, HE IS GOING TO TAKE. What you are doing is saying THESE PROVE PRE TRIB when you can't show A PRE TRIB EVEN EXISTS. It's putting the cart before the horse.
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
DON'T LET SATAN break into your household, he is the thief that is coming to steal, kill and destroy.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
The Lord and Saviour IS NOT THE THIEF THAT comes to suffer a house to be broken up. SO WE MUST WATCH and not be taken in by lies and deception.