Who Justifieth the Ungodly

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
renewed

There is only one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism


Yes and its the faith of Gods elect, the fruit of the Spirit Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

You in error say this one faith is common to all natural men in the flesh, which is untrue.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
renewed

hence you put yourself under the law.
nope ... you claiming I "put [my]self under the law" is another made up concept of your erroneous dogma.
.
Yes, whenever you condition Justification on something you do, its works, law !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
renew

your notion of "human faith" and "natural mans faith out of his flesh" and "faith is law" is just more of your vain imagining in your continued attempt to support your erroneous dogma.
Yes it is the law, the flesh and its condemned.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
renewed

Ephesians 1:13 In whom
[the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise


After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)
.
This applies to the regenerated elect/the chosen Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
renewed

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster
[to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The words "to bring us" are not part of the text. The words were added by the translators.

The point is that the keeping of the law was never intended as a means of salvation. Again, salvation is wholly by grace through faith.
Again it only applied to the seed/children of Abraham. Gal 3:7

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. So still the us is the children of Abraham.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
renewed

The point is that whoever is trying to keep the law in order to be justified, they are going to miss the boat because that was never the intent of the law.
And yet you are trying to do just that with your natural human faith. Human faith is law keeping Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
:rolleyes: ... another of your "born again in order to be born again" mantras.

Under your erroneous dogma, how many times must a person be born again before he/she is really born again???
.
Yes, 1 Jn 5:1 teaches being born again is before Faith/believing. So does Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Again scripture never said believing isnt an act/work !
Eph 2-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rom 4-
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Scripture refutes your claims.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
renewed

The term "human faith" does not appear in Scripture.
It doesnt have to. You said all humans have been given it, and you used as a proof text Rom 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Now didnt you say from this scripture that God has given every human faith ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
:rolleyes: lie of the wicked one ... God justifies those who believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead for we are justified by faith. Those who reject God will find themselves rejected come judgment day.

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
.
God Justifieth the ungodly. What does that word mean:

  1. destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious
God Justifies men who are in that state !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
Raised again for/because of our Justification !

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for/because of our justification.

Paul here reveals a profound Truth to believers that very few have the Grace to believe, and thats, all for whom Christ hath been delivered for or because of their sins, upon His Resurrection, the Free Gift of Justification has been applied to them, hence every sinner born into this world as His enemy, as a child of wrath by nature as others Eph 2:3, yet Christ has died for them and risen again for their Justification, they are born into this world discharged from every Sin, Transgression, Trespass, Offence they will ever commit in this world in their flesh through Adam; Their discharge has been APPLIED the milimeter second they enter this world by nature a child of wrath Eph 2:3, their Justification from all things is Just as Valid as Long as Christ Resurrection from the dead is Valid, which is forever, for it is written of Him following His Resurrection for them Rom 6:9

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Understand, He being raised from the dead [because of their Justification Rom 4:25] dieth no more, so they [whom He was raised for their Justification] can never be charged with any sins that brings forth death Rom 6:23, not even for sins they shall commit as children of wrath by nature as others !

Now this does not mean that they are in the flesh immune to feeling sinful, or confession of sin, for David was a Man who was Justified from all sin by non imputation, but did at times feel and confess his sinfulness Ps 32:1-5

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.​

However even with that, he and all for whom Christ died are Justified from and acquiited from any and all penalties of it, even from the penalty of unbelief, because ones unbelief and ignorance does not affect or reverse their Justification evidenced by His Resurrection, for its a valid immutable fact while they are unbelieves and enemies and ignorant to the fact of their Justification.

The Testimony of their acquittal by or because of Christ's Resurrection isny changed one iota because of ther unbelief, simply because their Justification is God's Faithfulness to His Son for His Work, not their faith, though it was His Work on their behalf ! The Mercy of Justification is showed to Christ, by applying it to His sinful Seed Ps 89:27-36

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.​
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
Be careful with being Justified by Faith !

Rom 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

To be Justified by Faith BEFORE GOD cannot mean and does not mean that a person is Justified BEFORE GOD by their own act of human faith or act of believing, simply because that would equate to being Justified by keeping the Law or by works man does !

Thats because Faith is a doing of the Law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Faith is a weightier matter of the LAW that ought to have been DONE ! Thats a work, there is no escaping that !

The word done here , the greek word ποιέω (poieō) means works :

Matt 7:22

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done G4160 many wonderful works?

Matt 23:5

But all their works they do G4160 for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

So yes, ones own faith is works or doing the law, something required to have been done !

Now with this in mine, the only biblical and scriptural way for a person to be Justified by Faith[BEFORE GOD] apart from the deeds of the Law as in Rom 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Is when Faith equates/is regards to Christ's Faith / Faithfulness ! See if it be our Faith, then our Law keeping Justified us before God, but if it is His Faith/Faithfulness, then that is what Justified us before God, take your pick , for it cannot be both ! Either the sinners Law Keeping Justified us before God, or the Saviours Law keeping Justified us before God, because Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23 ! 13
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
The point is as already stated
Due to your erroneous limited atonement dogma, you are unable to comprehend the point stated in Scripture.

The Lord Jesus Christ took not on him the nature of angels because He came to save mankind ... He did not come to save angels.




brightfame52 said:
That word reconciliation is the same word propitiation hilaskomai and it means the same thing as the word propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2, so the whole world in 1 Jn 2:2 that Jesus is the propitiation for, is the whole world of the seed of Abraham
:rolleyes: another example of your poor workmanship in rightly dividing the word of truth.

The only other verse in Scripture in which the word hilaskomai is used is Luke 18:13:

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful [Greek hilaskomai] to me a sinner.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
1 Jn 5:1 clearly doesn't say what he claims. It says those who are now believing have been born again. That's all.

It says nothing about the order of belief and regeneration.
yes and notice how the words are written in Scripture ... whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah is born of God.

however, brightfame52 manipulates the order of the words ... "born of God before they believe" ... to change the meaning of the verse to align with erroneous dogma.

iow brightfame52 claims one is born again before believing the truth by which one is born again. I have asked brightfame52 how many times must a person be born again before he/she is born again. brightfame52 will not answer ... just posts more erroneous dogma.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
what you teach is justification by works, the law, human conditions.
Your claim that faith = works does not line up with Scripture. Romans 4 tells us faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.




brightfame52 said:
Those whose sins God has been propitiated for, those people are yet Justified.
nope ... it means the sin issue has been dealt with.

Since sin has been dealt with, what is the issue???

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Now read the consequence for those who reject:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


Again, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are the ones who are without excuse before God.

That which may be known of God has been revealed to them (vs 19) ... yet they suppress the truth.




brightfame52 said:
So you believe justified people go to hell for their sins.
wrong again ...
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
You saying Christs death was worthless.
wow ... what a lie from the pit ... I have never said anything close to what you claim.
You havent said that directly, but its cloaked
Provide the posts, brightfame52.

Prove up your claim that I have ever stated "Christs death was worthless".

The only person on this thread who has made such a blasphemous statement is you ... so that lie can be laid at your keyboard.




brightfame52 said:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This cannot apply to anyone Christ shed His Blood for.
Rom 1:18 applies to all who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

The verse does not say that the Lord Jesus Christ did not shed His blood for them.

The verse says that they hold the truth in unrighteousness.

The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain, hinder

And Rom 1:19 tells us that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hat shewed it unto them.

Please note that the verse does not state they cannot believe. The verse clearly states that what may be known of God is manifest in them; for God shewed it to them.

The word "manifest" is translated from the Greek word phaneros which means visible, manifest, apparent, clear.

And the word "shewed" is translated from the Greek word phaneroō.

It's not that they can't believe ... it's that they reject that which is to be believed, even though what is to be believed has been revealed to them.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!




No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept it or do anything but continue being ungodly sinners
Yeah I said that, but in what context ?
hahahahahaha!!!! good thing I was sitting down when I read that line from the one who rips verses from the context within which they have been placed by the Author of Scripture ...




brightfame52 said:
See when you make a blanket statement like this without providing the context in which it was stated, its being deceitful and dishonest .
glad you finally admit to your deceitful and dishonest handling of Scripture.




God doesnt even charge them with sin
If that were true, there would be no need for the Redeemer.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
it doesnt matter who hides it, its hid ! So while in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden to a person, so they cannot possibly believe it.
yes, it does matter who tries to hide it.

As long as you continue to teach that it is God Who hides the gospel, you are preaching the lie of satan as it is satan who will stop at nothing to keep the gospel hid.

The true believer preaches the gospel (it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe – 1 Cor 1:21).


QUIT PREACHING THE LIES OF SATAN!!!




Yes they all were imprisoned by God in unbelief, thats being in a lost state, no way out.
God provided the "way out". There is only "one" escape ... the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




We see the same truth in Galatians 3:22:

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Yeah, this is speaking about Christs faithfulness
That is not what the verse states.

Read the verse in your beloved Amplified version:

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everyone [everything—the entire world] under sin, so that [the inheritance, the blessing of salvation] which was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe [in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s precious Son]


Quit trying to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture, and where your dogma does not align, let go of your error.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
The scripture is an external revelation
:rolleyes: so now you're gonna try to bind up Scripture just like you try to bind up faith???

Is there no end to your complete and utter rejection of Scripture???




brightfame52 said:
When it comes as word only, it takes no effect inwardly
Here's what Paul says about the power of the gospel:

Romans 1:

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The words "preach the gospel" in vs 15 are translated from the Greek word euaggelízō which means proclaim, announce, herald.

From HELPS Word-studies:

2097 euaggelízō (from 2095 /eú, "good, well" and angellō, "announce, herald") – properly, proclaim "the good message" (good news). In the NT, 2097 (euaggelízō) refers to sharing the full Gospel of Christ – literally, "gospelizing" that announces the complete message of "the good news" (the Lord's glad tidings).


You again preach the lies of satan concerning the gospel.




brightfame52 said:
You seem to believe that anyone can just pickup a bible and start reading it, and thats revelation.
Scripture is revelation from God:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


The words "given by inspiration of God" are translated from the Greek word theopneustos (from theós = God and pnéō = breathed out).

So, yes, Scripture is revelation from God and God has chosen the writing of Scripture to communicate with mankind.

Additionally, God has chosen the preaching of Scripture to communicate with mankind.




brightfame52 said:
As I have told you numerous times, Jesus must open ones understanding to understand the scriptures
Do you really believe that a person needs some sort of "special revelation" in order to understand Genesis 1:1?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

How about this record in Luke:

Luke 17:11-19 And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.


A person can read Gen 1:1 and the record in Luke 17 and understand the words with no special input.

A person can either believe what is written or reject what is written.

When a person rejects what is written in Scripture, he/she is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

You, however, teach an erroneous dogma with which Scripture must align ... no wonder you're so confused about the fact that faith ≠ works. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma does not align, get rid of the error.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Again scripture never said believing isnt an act/work !
:rolleyes: you're still suppressing the truth in unrighteousness ...


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


NIV: However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness


ESV: And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness


Here's your favorite ... the Amplified: But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God)


ISV: However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
You in error say this one faith is common to all natural men in the flesh, which is untrue.
Again, no error on my part. there is only one faith.

The issue is not "do you have faith".

The issue is "in WHOM do you have faith".


Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

The error is on the part of your erroneous dogma and your continuous attempts to align Scripture to your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture. Where your dogma does not align with Scripture, get rid of the error.




you condition Justification on something you do, its works, law !
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith

Salvation is wholly by grace through faith and Scripture is clear that faith ≠ works.


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


NIV: However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness


ESV: And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness


Here's your favorite ... the Amplified: But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God)


ISV: However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
.