Translation issue(s)?

[Runningman]

I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul. The word for life (physical or spiritual) is something else and it’s G2222 (BibleHub link) in the Strong’s concordance.

Here are some random examples:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Romans 11:3 KJV
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Peter 3:20 KJV
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Any idea why they replaced the word for soul with life, or mind, or heart in the New Testament when there are already different words for life, heart, and mind in Greek that don’t actually refer to the soul? This isn’t just in the KJV, but most translations I’ve seen.

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.

 

[Pemican]

I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul. The word for life (physical or spiritual) is something else and it’s G2222 (BibleHub link) in the Strong’s concordance.

Here are some random examples:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Romans 11:3 KJV
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Peter 3:20 KJV
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Any idea why they replaced the word for soul with life, or mind, or heart in the New Testament when there are already different words for life, heart, and mind in Greek that don’t actually refer to the soul? This isn’t just in the KJV, but most translations I’ve seen.

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.

I am not an expert in Greek, but I have seen many times how a translation is derived by a Greek expert. The same word can have many different meanings so the challenge to the translator is to choose the most appropriate meaning. Grammar and syntax are vital, but the context of the passage plays a key role. It's always context, context, and don't forget the context!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul. The word for life (physical or spiritual) is something else and it’s G2222 (BibleHub link) in the Strong’s concordance.

Here are some random examples:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Romans 11:3 KJV
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Peter 3:20 KJV
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Any idea why they replaced the word for soul with life, or mind, or heart in the New Testament when there are already different words for life, heart, and mind in Greek that don’t actually refer to the soul? This isn’t just in the KJV, but most translations I’ve seen.

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.

Really it comes down to the manuscripts that were used.

Biblehub uses the KJV as it's foundation within Strong's accordance.

Which manuscripts were used and did the translator choose the best appropriate word within the context.

In less, you have access to cross reference the verses using different manuscripts and have the ability to read them then your only hope as any layman is to study to the best you can, study the language the best you can, and check multiple translations to see how they compare.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Not really. These are all different aspects of the soul. Consider them as "synonyms".

 

[Chester]

I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul. The word for life (physical or spiritual) is something else and it’s G2222 (BibleHub link) in the Strong’s concordance.

Here are some random examples:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Romans 11:3 KJV
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Peter 3:20 KJV
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Any idea why they replaced the word for soul with life, or mind, or heart in the New Testament when there are already different words for life, heart, and mind in Greek that don’t actually refer to the soul? This isn’t just in the KJV, but most translations I’ve seen.

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.

A very interesting question. As a few already said context is the key to choosing the best English word for the translation of any Greek wordl. But the difficulty lies in the fact that we tend to read the English word "life" with the same meaning whether it comes from the Greek word psuche (breath, soul) or from zoe (spiritual life).

The issue at hand is always when the English audience reads the English word that is used, what will they understand it to mean?

 

[wattie]

I originally posted this as a comment, but it didn’t get any attention and it’s buried in a thread now. However, I’m very curious about this because I know there are people way more experienced with Greek than myself so I would love some feedback on this. Thank you!

In the New Testament the word for soul is sometimes translated to say life instead. Sometimes it’s even translated as heart or mind. (See Ephesians 6:6 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose heart and Philippians 1:27 where it uses the word for soul but the translators chose mind.)

G5590 (BibleHub link)
psuché
Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It’s used 104 times in the New Testament this way, often translated to say life rather than soul. The word for life (physical or spiritual) is something else and it’s G2222 (BibleHub link) in the Strong’s concordance.

Here are some random examples:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 11:29 KJV
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Romans 11:3 KJV
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Peter 3:20 KJV
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Any idea why they replaced the word for soul with life, or mind, or heart in the New Testament when there are already different words for life, heart, and mind in Greek that don’t actually refer to the soul? This isn’t just in the KJV, but most translations I’ve seen.

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Thank you for your time I look forward to some responses.

The context around the word will determine what the word itself is meaning.

It does change the meaning alot though of verses in scripture.

Loss of vitality is very different to loss of life like death.

Losing the soul is different to losing life.

This affects doctrines of eternal security and assurance of salvation, where loss of vitality in life.. loss of blessings is meant rather than loss of the soul, spirit.

Also there is a difference between having a saved life and saved soul. Someone could get eternally saved and then not go after God after. Their life is not 'salvaged' for God.

But someone who does pursue Jesus after eternal life is given.. they have a saved life also.

 

[Runningman]

The context around the word will determine what the word itself is meaning.

It does change the meaning alot though of verses in scripture.

Loss of vitality is very different to loss of life like death.

Losing the soul is different to losing life.

This affects doctrines of eternal security and assurance of salvation, where loss of vitality in life.. loss of blessings is meant rather than loss of the soul, spirit.

Also there is a difference between having a saved life and saved soul. Someone could get eternally saved and then not go after God after. Their life is not 'salvaged' for God.

But someone who does pursue Jesus after eternal life is given.. they have a saved life also.

Yes exactly. Seems like where the word for soul was used, based on their interpretation, they decided to use different words.

One of the examples I used:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Here in John 15:13 the word life actually translate to breath, soul but they used life as if Jesus was referring to someone laying down their physical life.

Now look at a random example where an example of physical life is referenced:

Luke 12:25
15And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Life in Luke 12:25 literally means the physical or spiritual life. How is this supposed to be taken the same way as what John 15:13 says? I don’t see why they used life in both verses. That makes me think of physical life.

 

[wattie]

Yes exactly. Seems like where the word for soul was used, based on their interpretation, they decided to use different words.

One of the examples I used:

John 15:13 KJV
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Here in John 15:13 the word life actually translate to breath, soul but they used life as if Jesus was referring to someone laying down their physical life.

Now look at a random example where an example of physical life is referenced:

Luke 12:25
15And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Life in Luke 12:25 literally means the physical or spiritual life. How is this supposed to be taken the same way as what John 15:13 says? I don’t see why they used life in both verses. That makes me think of physical life.

I don't really know of any bibles without the influence of the background of the people who put it together.
The KJV is considered one of the most accurate English translations.

I agree with that.. but it does have the influence of the King of England at the time, in having words in there that allow Church of England teachings on what the church is to be kept. So King Jimmy had the word 'church' where older bibles were using 'congregation' or 'assembly' for the Greek word 'Ecclessia'. Congregation and assembly have inherent in them a localised, visible meaning. The word 'church' can have many different kinds of meanings.

Similar things would go for all translations, where original meanings have been distorted or replaced with other words that don't quite catch the full import of the original words.

The good news is that when the translations are accurate, trying to be literal translations.. the context around the words gives it the right meaning, that usually would support the original meaning from the original language.

 

[phil36]

This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.

🙄

 

[Runningman]

I don't really know of any bibles without the influence of the background of the people who put it together.
The KJV is considered one of the most accurate English translations.

I agree with that.. but it does have the influence of the King of England at the time, in having words in there that allow Church of England teachings on what the church is to be kept. So King Jimmy had the word 'church' where older bibles were using 'congregation' or 'assembly' for the Greek word 'Ecclessia'. Congregation and assembly have inherent in them a localised, visible meaning. The word 'church' can have many different kinds of meanings.

Similar things would go for all translations, where original meanings have been distorted or replaced with other words that don't quite catch the full import of the original words.

The good news is that when the translations are accurate, trying to be literal translations.. the context around the words gives it the right meaning, that usually would support the original meaning from the original language.

That’s kinda what I figured. “The church tends to believe it this way so we can’t translate the word for soul literally in certain places or it will change how we prefer the Bible to be understood.” is the gist I’m getting.

Here’s another example that’s a little more obviously shows a translation inconsistency:

Matthew 16:25,26 KJV
25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The word for life and soul in this passage is the same Greek word for breath/soul, psuché, but the pretense of the context is about saving/losing life and the question asked is about one losing/exchanging their soul.

I’m starting to think they translated the word soul as life, heart, or mind in order to support the doctrines/traditions of the church.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Here’s another example that is a little more obvious to shows an inconsistency in the translation in my opinion: Matthew 16:25,26 KJV 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

There is no inconsistency here and you are unnecessarily creating a straw man and trying to bash translators at the same time. The "life" of person is indeed within the soul, and persons are called "souls" regularly. Therefore "eight souls were saved by water" is the same as "eight lives were saved by water" or "eight persons were saved by water". When the soul and spirit depart, a person is deemed to have died. How did Adam become a "living soul"? God breathed the breath of life into him. Otherwise he was simply clay.

 

[p_rehbein]

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.



When reading the King James, try reading the Complete Jewish Bible with it. You may find them to support one another quite well.

I guess you are just curious about all of this, and I guess that is ok, however, to put forth that our King James Bible is NOT the Word of God is just something I will not accept. I wonder how people can believe God can create all there is/ever was, and NOT be able to protect His Word from being ruined with mistranslations.......

The Holy Bible is Truth! Folks wanna argue about this word and it's Greek/Hebrew/English meanings and such is all well and good, but how does it serve the Kingdom to seek to discredit the Holy Bible?

 

[Runningman]

There is no inconsistency here and you are unnecessarily creating a straw man and trying to bash translators at the same time. The "life" of person is indeed within the soul, and persons are called "souls" regularly. Therefore "eight souls were saved by water" is the same as "eight lives were saved by water" or "eight persons were saved by water". When the soul and spirit depart, a person is deemed to have died. How did Adam become a "living soul"? God breathed the breath of life into him. Otherwise he was simply clay.

Did you see where I framed my response as an opinion? Thanks for your response, but I’m not creating straw man or bashing anyone. Please don’t derail this thread.

 

[Runningman]

Before I’m 100% convinced on this that that most English Bibles are translated incorrectly, I really need to see if anyone can explain this for me. This isn’t a small thing. This could be one of the important translation issues for the church to be aware of.



When reading the King James, try reading the Complete Jewish Bible with it. You may find them to support one another quite well.

I guess you are just curious about all of this, and I guess that is ok, however, to put forth that our King James Bible is NOT the Word of God is just something I will not accept. I wonder how people can believe God can create all there is/ever was, and NOT be able to protect His Word from being ruined with mistranslations.......

The Holy Bible is Truth! Folks wanna argue about this word and it's Greek/Hebrew/English meanings and such is all well and good, but how does it serve the Kingdom to seek to discredit the Holy Bible?

First of all, that’s not what I said. I am questioning why the translators chose the words they did if there are better words available to use, and there are. I understand you’re passionate about the Bible and want to protect it; me too.

This is just a Bible discussion about words. Is it okay with you if we talk about how the Bible is translated without any accusations that someone is rejecting it as the inspired word of God? That would be necessary in this thread. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

I also want to understand it accurately and language translation is a common obstacle to overcome. So do you know of any good reasons why the translators chose different words for soul? I’m quite puzzled on this one.

 

[Jocund]

Good discussion

Just an observation but the term "soul" in English has also been used in a nautical sense to refer to lives.

"The ship went down with all souls lost at sea"

Which is also where SOS (save our souls) comes from, and in a more common English rendering means "save our lives" rather than something to the effect of "save our eternal souls"

 

[Runningman]

Good discussion

Just an observation but the term "soul" in English has also been used in a nautical sense to refer to lives.

"The ship went down with all souls lost at sea"

Which is also where SOS (save our souls) comes from, and in a more common English rendering means "save our lives" rather than something to the effect of "save our eternal souls"

Historically, that’s true, but did they actually mean the souls were lost at sea or that people died in a shipwreck? This seems to be a kind of metaphor known as a metonymy, I believe, because anyone saved by God doesn’t have a soul lost to the sea if they die physically there.

The way using one’s soul in the Bible seems literal to me. Unless Jesus didn’t mean a soul can be lost which begs why He would suggest it to begin with.

Anyway, I think saying “they lost their life at sea” versus “souls were lost at sea” both carry the same connotation that people physically died in the sea.

 

[oyster67]

If the word for soul was replaced with words like life, heart, or mind it changes this will dramatically change the way the Bible is interpreted.

Not at all. Soul is the part if life that is eternal. The heart and mind are different ways of expressing this same concept.

 

[Runningman]

Not at all. Soul is the part if life that is eternal. The heart and mind are different ways of expressing this same concept.

Okay so they’re the same concept. So rather than say life, heart, or mind can we just stick with the Greek word which says soul and interpret them with the word soul with no loss of meaning?

For example, if I were to say “greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s soul for one’s friends.” Would you agree?

 

[oyster67]

Okay so they’re the same concept. So rather than say life, heart, or mind can we just stick with the Greek word which says soul and interpret them with the word soul with no loss of meaning?

For example, if I were to say “greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s soul for one’s friends.” Would you agree?

No. This is not referring to the eternal part of one's life.

Soul is the part if life that is eternal.

 

[Runningman]

No. This is not referring to the eternal part of one's life.

This is where it gets a bit difficult to me. The word life in “lays down one’s life for one’s friends” translates to soul, but it’s not the eternal soul, actually it’s the mortal body?

Why not just use the word for mortal body instead such as in Romans 6:12? Or how about the physical, temporal, life of a person such as in Luke 1:75?