Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[persistent]

God is Just in Justifying the Ungodly !3

God Justifieth the Ungodly ! Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now when are those being Justified as the Ungodly ? Is it before they believe or have Faith in Christ ? The answer is Yes, for while they are being ungodly sinners, Christ has died for them Rom 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

His death Justified them as Ungodly , when Ungodly !

Remember Paul says after saying it is God that Justifieth in Rom 8:33, in Vs 34 He said it was because Christ died Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

When Christ died, it Justified the Ungodly He died for !

Not only that, Belief of the Truth is an act of godliness Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

So if He Justified them when they believed, He Justified them while they were acting Godly, which overthrows the very foundation of the Truth of Rom 4:5 that He Justifies the Ungodly !

Regarding Rom 5:6-8 its plain from the passage that Christ died for them while being ungodly, and again that's why they were Justified, because Christ died for them, and by that fact alone, they shall be made Righteous, or made Just, which is the same as Justified, So those Christ died for are made righteous / Justified while they are ungodly sinners in unbelief, to the credit of Christ's Death and God's Grace ! 14

Do you suppose that this prayer Jesus made also justified these folks? Luke23:34 ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

 

[Runningman]

God is Just in Justifying the Ungodly !3

God Justifieth the Ungodly ! Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now when are those being Justified as the Ungodly ? Is it before they believe or have Faith in Christ ? The answer is Yes, for while they are being ungodly sinners, Christ has died for them Rom 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

His death Justified them as Ungodly , when Ungodly !

Remember Paul says after saying it is God that Justifieth in Rom 8:33, in Vs 34 He said it was because Christ died Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

When Christ died, it Justified the Ungodly He died for !

Not only that, Belief of the Truth is an act of godliness Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

So if He Justified them when they believed, He Justified them while they were acting Godly, which overthrows the very foundation of the Truth of Rom 4:5 that He Justifies the Ungodly !

Regarding Rom 5:6-8 its plain from the passage that Christ died for them while being ungodly, and again that's why they were Justified, because Christ died for them, and by that fact alone, they shall be made Righteous, or made Just, which is the same as Justified, So those Christ died for are made righteous / Justified while they are ungodly sinners in unbelief, to the credit of Christ's Death and God's Grace ! 14

It’s just that the bottom line is that everyone since Adam and Eve up until the present day have sinned. The people God has had at His disposal are sinners from Abraham, Moses, Noah, Paul, Peter, John, etc.

If God doesn’t justify the ungodly then no one else could.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you suppose that this prayer Jesus made also justified these folks? Luke23:34 ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

I will answer that after you discuss my points I posted and you quoted and apparently disregarged them.

 

[brightfame52]

Believers were Justified/Made Righteous while Ungodly !

Believers were Justified/Made Righteous while Ungodly ! This Truth the unbelieving religious world cannot receive, That all for whom Christ died, that fact alone, apart from any obedience of their own, and even while they were operating by a spirit of disobedience as Per Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes even while they were in the midst of walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, even then, solely by the death of Christ, were they made Righteous, and Justified before God, in their ungodly manner of lifestyle !

Thats why Paul says that God was Justifying the Ungodly Rom 4:5 !

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul in Rom 5:19 teaches the same thing, that by Christ's one obedience unto death, for the many whom He died for are made Righteous, or Justified !

Now to prove that this being made Righteous and or Justified before God is prior to any acts of Gospel Obedience from the sinner, and while they are yet ungodly, we will look at Rom 4:25 where the proof lies in the witness of Christ's resurrection from the dead, Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification !

Now exactly how does this prove this vital gracious Truth ? Its simple, by the three letter word for, a preposition the greek word dia which means:


i.by reason of


ii.on account of


iii.because of for this reason

v.on this account

for sake of

Now, Paul says #1 that Christ was delivered for [on account of] our offenses, which applies to everyone that He was delivered to death for, on account of their sins/offences !

Now the same ones it is said that He was raised again for [on account of] their Justification !

There it is, His being raised again is a testification that His death for them was their Justification before God.

That word Justification is the greek word dikaiōsis:

I.the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.abjuring to be righteous, justification

Hence this is God's solemn affirmation that the death of Christ has made them He died for Righteous, and freed them from all guilt before Him !

Now, if this Resurrection of Christ took place in 33 ad, affirming the Justification of those He died for, then when a future believer[say in 1900] is born a sinner by nature, ungodly, and under the control of that spirit which worketh in the disobedient Eph 2:2, they have already been declared Righteous/Not guilty before God by the Resurrection of Christ, centuries before in 33 ad, so they were born in sin already Justified and Righteous before God, they just dont know it yet !

And to say otherwise is a rejection of the Testimony of Christ's Resurrection, which is a Gospel Truth 1 Cor 15:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

So here are the alternatives, we either believe that those Christ died for were Justified before God, made Righteous before Him by it, or we reject the Gospel Testimony and remain in unbelief ! 14

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have provided proof that you are the only one on this thread who has made that claim.

I stand by that !

smh

Christs death being worthless

You can believe your blasphemous lie all the livelong day.

Colossians 1:

15 Who [the Lord Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


preeminent to believers = worthless to brightfame52 ... smh
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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2256

When you combine your statement with my statement, it appears that I submitted both statements (which I didn't). I replied to your Post #2216 where you did the same thing. However, I am no longer going to respond to posts you submit like that. I will point out that you have botched your response, but I'm not going to take the time to figure out who said what. You need to take the time to learn how to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.​

brightfame52 – Post 2288

Hogwash​

reneweddaybyday – Post 2332

No, it is not "hogwash". It is rude on your part to combine your statements with my statements and submit a post where it appears I made both statements.When you submit posts in which you do that, you just reveal your pride and arrogance ... maybe because you consider yourself "elect" and I am merely a "whoseover".​

brightfame52 – Post 2363

Yes it is hogwash​

reneweddaybyday – Post 2437

Intentionally obtuse.​

brightfame52 – Post 2461

Just know this​

All I am interested in "knowing" from you concerning this issue is that you will quit botching up the posts you submit.

Make sure you submit your posts with you stating what you have submitted.

Make sure you submit your posts with me stating what I have submitted.
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[reneweddaybyday]

You claim "limited atonement" is a "key truth" on the one hand, yet on the other hand, you must manipulate Scripture in order to get Scripture to align with your dogma ... and that is something for which you "will be accountable to God for the same !"

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

You must do that to deny it [limited atonement]

nope ... I read Scripture just as written ...

I do not replace the world ... the whole world ... whosoever

with the "elect"


That is all your doing because you hold to your erroneous dogma rather than align your dogma with Scripture. Where your dogma is in error, you are to let go of the error and hold to Scripture.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Intentionally obtuse.

It is the promise that is given.

Phil 1:29

Before you can even begin to understand what God has laid out in Philippians 1:29, you must understand the truth set forth in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The whole point of Galatians 3 is that the promise of God is received through faith ... not through the works of the law:

Galatians 3:13-14 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ... under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

one must be born again spiritually to believe. Believing on Christ is Spiritual. And one is only born again once.

Since, according to you, a person must be "born again to believe", then one cannot believe the gospel by which one is born again until they are born again.

Under your erroneous dogma one must be born again in order to believe the gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

According to Scripture, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes.

However, your dogma requires that one be born again In order to believe the gospel.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again [regenerated], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

According to Scripture, it is the word of God by which we are born again.

However, your dogma requires that one be born again in order to be born again by the Word of God.

So, no, brightfame52, you do not believe "one is only born again once".

natural men can love

and natural man can believe.

and natural man can be patient.

and natural man can have self control (temperance).
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[reneweddaybyday]

since it is clear the Lord Jesus Christ is revealed in Scripture, there is no need to argue that it is pointless to study God's Word.

The problem is not with Scripture. The problem is that folks don't open the Book and read it.

The problem is that the Bible, the Word of God, is "setting around collecting dust".

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee ...

One needs to have God open up their understanding spiritually to understand the scripture.

... and God is going to "open up their understanding" when their Bibles are "setting around collecting dust"????

Your erroneous dogma concerning this issue is another reason why the gospel remains hid ... not because God hasn't revealed the gospel, but because there are folks like you telling them it's futile to read Scripture because they'll "never understand it with [their] spiritually darkened mind and heart".

Quit preaching the lies of satan ... he's the one who wants Bibles "setting around collecting dust". satan is the one who wants people to believe they'll never understand it.

way to go, brightfame52 ... you are batting 1000 when it comes to preaching what satan wants preached.

got it. I never said it, but you're gonna say I said it ... just more of your revisionist manipulation. I'm not surprised though, since you do the same with Scripture.

You believe the scripture , the bible is for the natural man to pick up and read it understand it and get saved .

I will stick with Scripture. You can believe all you want that it is futile for folks to read their Bibles.

When God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, gave His words to the prophets to write down who are you to say that those words should not be read??

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word "quick" in Heb 4:12 is translated from the Greek word zaō. According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the word zaō means "having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul".
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[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52 ... you have again botched your reply in your Post #2478.

I am not going to respond to posts you submit where you include your statement in a quote in which it appears I made the statement. I will point out that you have botched your response, but I'm not going to take the time to figure out who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, the way you present Faith its law keeping

You are the only one in this thread who advocates faith = law ... therefore, it is you who "present Faith its law keeping"
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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
This refers to the regenerated
... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ... under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

no, brightfame52 ... you have again botched your reply in your Post #2480.

I am not going to respond to posts you submit where you include your statement in a quote in which it appears I made the statement. I will point out that you have botched your response, but I'm not going to take the time to figure out who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I actually know what scripture says

Since you "actually know what scripture says", the next step is for you to believe what Scripture says.

Scripture says faith ≠ works. Period.

Its you who dont understand scripture

yawn ... more of your denial of Scripture.

Scripture clearly states that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
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[reneweddaybyday]

The fact that the Ephesians heard the word of truth, a spiritual message, was indicative of being in a spiritually saved state, born again by the Spirit, afterwards the believed, and the Spirit sealed the testimony in their minds heart, they can never become unbelievers again !

When a person is born again, he/she is born from above. He/She is now a child of God.

I will believe Ephesians 1:13 just as it is written ... no "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" ... then "become unbelievers again" because "the Spirit" didn't "seal the testimony in their minds heart".


Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)

To be sealed with that holy Spirit of promise = to be born again, regenerated.


The moment a person believes, he/she is sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. The seal represents ownership. The believer now belongs to God.

Just before the Lord Jesus Christ ascended up into heaven, He commanded His disciples to wait for the promise of the Father:

Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

To be baptized with the Holy Ghost is to be sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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[reneweddaybyday]

As already proven, believing is resultive of having been born again.

nope ... you claiming "already proven" does not equal "already proven".

What has been proven is that in John 1:12, the Lord Jesus Christ clearly states that He gave power [the right, the privilege] to become the sons of God to those who did not reject Him.

If they are already born again, they already are the sons of God. There would be no need for the Lord Jesus Christ to give them what they already have and are.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday submitted Post 2448

All this is so confusing

that's how you like your Scripture ... the more confusing you can make it, the more you can insert your erroneous dogma and then insist you've "already proven" what you have not addressed.
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[reneweddaybyday]

You have again botched your reply in your Post #2485.

I am not going to respond to posts you submit where you include your statement in a quote in which it appears I made the statement. I will point out that you have botched your response, but I'm not going to take the time to figure out who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday – Post #2344

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The word believeth is also present tense.

The ungodly person believes and God imputes righteousness to him/her right then, right when the person believes (present tense) ... God justifies that person, right then (present tense) ... at that point, they are no longer "ungodly".

Prior to being justified, all born again ones were ungodly (even your so-called "elect"). Once a person is born again, the Holy Spirit resides within. The born again one is no longer "ungodly".

The elect can be and are Justified while being ungodly/unbelievers, but they cant believe while being ungodly

If they "cant believe" then they remain unjustified:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".

Your so-called "elect" are all part of the pool of humanity.

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam are ungodly.

Yes I agree with this

Once a person is born again, he/she is a member of the body of Christ ... Who is the Elect.

Disagree, the elect are part of the Body of Christ before they are born again

nope ... if one is not born again, he/she is not a member of the body of Christ.

If no Christ in you there is no you in Christ.

You failed to prove your point or to disprove mine.

Not true.

No matter how vehemently you claim I have not done so, I have proved that you hold to wholly contradictory positions that:

(1) a person is simultaneously ungodly and justified; and

(2) that a person is simultaneously an enemy and reconciled.

Your erroneous dogma has again failed.

You are free to hold to your erroneous dogma; however, you are not free to manipulate Scripture and then insist that I (or anyone else) must believe your unScriptural interpretation.

Your feeble attempt to align Scriture to your erroneous dogma has again failed.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

enemies translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,

reconciled translated from Greek katallássō – decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

According to Rom 5:10 when were they reconciled to God ?

Again, please comprehend what you read:

the word "enemies" is translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,

Prior to being born again, we were (past tense) enemies ... irreconcilable hostility toward God.

Once we are born again, we are (not past tense) reconciled.

The word "reconciled" is translated from Greek katallássō – decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

The one who is justified by faith (Rom 5:1) is no longer an enemy because he/she is now reconciled. Both parties are now reconciled.

God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she is justified. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (see definition of reconciled translated from Greek katallássō).

The believer is the one who had already been reconciled previously to God

If they "had already been reconciled" they were not "enemies". However, Scripture clearly states in more than one place that the born again one was an enemy prior to believing.

Your erroneous dogma is contradictory to itself. I'll stick with the truth of God's Word.
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[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52 ... in your Post 2387, you replied to yourself.

Im not sure thats accurate

yes accurate. Just more of your same ol' same ol' botched post submission.
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[reneweddaybyday]

The word "evidence" is translated from the Greek word elegchos which means that by which invisible things are proved.

I know that

Glad to hear you "know that".

See the elects Justification before God is invisible, its not tangible, but intangible and Spiritual. Yet it convinces the mind

Do you still "hope" you are justified? You still need to be "convince[d] in [your] mind" because you lack faith (don't believe Scripture)?

I know I am justified because I have Holy Spirit within and the fruit of the Spirit is the evidence in my life that I am born again ... justified by faith (Rom 5:1) ... no longer ungodly nor an enemy ... fully reconciled.

What I "hope" for is the time when I will see my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We "hope" for His appearing ... for that is when we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


If you're still "hoping" to be justified, try believing what Scripture tells you:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Your erroneous dogma has failed again when the light of Scripture scrutinizes your fallacious claims.


2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
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