Divorce...
- Thread starter Gojira
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I agree.
Mark 10:12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
Woman weren’t able to divorce their husbands so the reader must explain, “Jesus really meant…”.
ESV Luke 16:18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.”
Here again, the reader must claim Jesus didn’t really mean what he said… In fact the reader must make excuse for Jesus everywhere, in Matthew, Mark and Luke when reading on the topic from the ESV. 🤔
Here’s another question.
If Jesus really claimed the only reason for “divorce” was fornication, why then do we have Deuteronomy 24:1-4 in our inspired cannon which allows for divorce and remarriage for reasons other than fornication?
Mark 10:12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
Woman weren’t able to divorce their husbands so the reader must explain, “Jesus really meant…”.
ESV Luke 16:18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.”
Here again, the reader must claim Jesus didn’t really mean what he said… In fact the reader must make excuse for Jesus everywhere, in Matthew, Mark and Luke when reading on the topic from the ESV. 🤔
Here’s another question.
If Jesus really claimed the only reason for “divorce” was fornication, why then do we have Deuteronomy 24:1-4 in our inspired cannon which allows for divorce and remarriage for reasons other than fornication?
There's a relevant but often overlooked passage in Malachi 2...
13 “This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14 Yet you say, ‘For what reason?’ Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. 16 For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong,” says the Lord of hosts. “So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”
There's a note for the word rendered "wrong" in verse 16 of the NASB: "or violence". It's an awkward phrase in English. One interpretation I've come across (no reference, sorry) is that God is essentially saying, "I hate divorce and I hate spousal abuse", putting destruction of the person alongside destruction of the marriage as equally heinous.
13 “This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14 Yet you say, ‘For what reason?’ Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. 16 For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong,” says the Lord of hosts. “So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”
There's a note for the word rendered "wrong" in verse 16 of the NASB: "or violence". It's an awkward phrase in English. One interpretation I've come across (no reference, sorry) is that God is essentially saying, "I hate divorce and I hate spousal abuse", putting destruction of the person alongside destruction of the marriage as equally heinous.
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I don't really know, because it says the man finds "some uncleanness", which is super-vague. But I know that typically people will say that this is what the pharisees were questioning Jesus about... they were demanding he clarify the grounds for divorce. I can't say I understand what deuteronomy is saying... but Jesus explains that the law was given because of people's hard-heartedness; that I think I understand.
3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
So, they don't specifically mention divorce here; and Jesus answers thusly:
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Jesus answering in this way; I believe; means that there really should never have been a "putting away" or a divorce.
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
So, this is why I think people would say the discussion does include divorce. This might just be the pharisees trying to move the goalpost on Jesus- it does say they are testing him- but either way, Jesus answers the question as to the reason for the law:
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
This verse could probably start some arguments. What is Jesus saying here?
Men had hardened hearts because they would just send their wives away and marry someone else- so this law was made to help women that were being screwed over by their husbands (which might have some support in the prophets).
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People in general had hardened hearts; so this "putting away" (accompanied by divorce in the law) was tolerated: but it was never supposed to be that way- God never intended us to become hard-hearted, and he never intended us to put away or divorce our spouses.
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
This is where I think people would say that Jesus is clarifying what it means to "find some uncleanness"; and he is answering the pharisees original question of putting women away. Perhaps she has committed some sexual immorality- the man knows that she did it, but there are not witnesses enough to stone her, but he can still put her away, and marry another: and that's the only circumstance where it's okay.
But, strictly looking at his words, he never says "divorce", even though in the law the "putting/sending away" goes with the "divorce".
And if Jesus wasn't talking about divorce here, that leaves us with the question 'what qualifies as a legitimate "some uncleanness" in deuteronomy. Surely it doesn't mean that a man can divorce his wife because she is on the rag, or something like that; that would be dumb... I mean... weren't people unclean after they had sex? I'm pretty sure you couldn't just have sex with your wife and be like "ugh.. you're unclean!! get out!!!" That doesn't make sense.
3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
So, they don't specifically mention divorce here; and Jesus answers thusly:
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Jesus answering in this way; I believe; means that there really should never have been a "putting away" or a divorce.
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
So, this is why I think people would say the discussion does include divorce. This might just be the pharisees trying to move the goalpost on Jesus- it does say they are testing him- but either way, Jesus answers the question as to the reason for the law:
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
This verse could probably start some arguments. What is Jesus saying here?
Men had hardened hearts because they would just send their wives away and marry someone else- so this law was made to help women that were being screwed over by their husbands (which might have some support in the prophets).
-or-
People in general had hardened hearts; so this "putting away" (accompanied by divorce in the law) was tolerated: but it was never supposed to be that way- God never intended us to become hard-hearted, and he never intended us to put away or divorce our spouses.
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
This is where I think people would say that Jesus is clarifying what it means to "find some uncleanness"; and he is answering the pharisees original question of putting women away. Perhaps she has committed some sexual immorality- the man knows that she did it, but there are not witnesses enough to stone her, but he can still put her away, and marry another: and that's the only circumstance where it's okay.
But, strictly looking at his words, he never says "divorce", even though in the law the "putting/sending away" goes with the "divorce".
And if Jesus wasn't talking about divorce here, that leaves us with the question 'what qualifies as a legitimate "some uncleanness" in deuteronomy. Surely it doesn't mean that a man can divorce his wife because she is on the rag, or something like that; that would be dumb... I mean... weren't people unclean after they had sex? I'm pretty sure you couldn't just have sex with your wife and be like "ugh.. you're unclean!! get out!!!" That doesn't make sense.
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And now that I really think about it; looking at Deuteronomy- knowing that your wife had committed some sexual immorality, I think, would definitely qualify as "finding some uncleanness" and even in this case, the law says "give her a certificate of divorce and send her away", so I really don't think that Jesus was saying that is was okay to put away your wife without a certificate of divorce if she committed sexual immorality... because the law says give her a certificate of divorce.
Furthermore... in 1 Cor 7, when Paul discusses the circumstances around separation; he says this-
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
It seems that "divorce" and "separation" are used interchangably by Paul in the NT.
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
It seems that "divorce" and "separation" are used interchangably by Paul in the NT.
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I think they essentially mean the same thing but divorce is a more technical/legal term. I think only a man was allowed to issue a bill of divorce during those times (like Judaism). If a woman wanted a divorce, she had to ask her husband. That's why when a wife leaves, it is called separation rather than divorce.
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Actually, I'm not sure this is right, because even though Paul says "unmarried" he still calls the man "her husband" so maybe "unmarried" isn't the same as divorced....
You know what...? I hate this topic. This is why Jesus' disciples said it's better not to marry; because this divorce/separation thing is a DUMPSTER FIRE!
You know what...? I hate this topic. This is why Jesus' disciples said it's better not to marry; because this divorce/separation thing is a DUMPSTER FIRE!
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But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery...
Matthew 5:32 (kjv et. al.)
So, which is it then? or are you saying that you think they are one and the same? Linguistically, I see the difference; but conceptually I think they can mean the same thing.
Matthew 5:32 (kjv et. al.)
So, which is it then? or are you saying that you think they are one and the same? Linguistically, I see the difference; but conceptually I think they can mean the same thing.
Yes, technically she is still married since she needs the bill of divorce, but in practice they are leading separate lives and according to Paul she is allowed to do so ("remain" unmarried). For a battered woman, this is nonetheless peace of mind. At the same time, the husband cannot divorce her unless she commits adultery. So he really needs to repent of his actions before she moves back.
This is one topic that’s almost impossible to grasp without looking at the original languages and getting into a little history.
Like you said, it seems like Paul uses the words interchangeably, we see this a lot throughout all the relevant verses. However, when you look at the original language, a lot of time it’s the same word. Which can be a head scratcher.
Ervah: uncleanness… it’s used over 50 times in the OT. It includes fornication but doesn’t have to be sexually related. In other words you may have caught her doing witchcraft, worshiping idols etc. The main point is, according to Deuteronomy law, divorce was permitted for reasons other than fornication.
So when we find Jesus stating (in the ESV) the only lawful cause for divorce is fornication, what do we do?
1. Did he change the Deuteronomy 24 law?
ESV Luke 16:17-18
17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
Oops ESV. Apparently not one dot would become void but then he voids Deuteronomy 24:1-4??? Something isn’t right.
The easiest solution is often correct.
Put away is not equal to divorce.
I know some people minds just melted, you love your divorce doctrines… Don’t worry nothing changes, God still hates divorce.
Jesus was addressing the improper practice of putting away without the divorce certificate. A form of which still occurs today in Jewish circles, it’s sad really. Men put away, send out, separate from their wives, refuse to give the divorce certificate so they don’t have to pay alimony etc. The man is able to remarry but she is not.
Look up agunah: the chained wife, it’ll get y’all started down a wonderful study Lord willing.
Like you said, it seems like Paul uses the words interchangeably, we see this a lot throughout all the relevant verses. However, when you look at the original language, a lot of time it’s the same word. Which can be a head scratcher.
Ervah: uncleanness… it’s used over 50 times in the OT. It includes fornication but doesn’t have to be sexually related. In other words you may have caught her doing witchcraft, worshiping idols etc. The main point is, according to Deuteronomy law, divorce was permitted for reasons other than fornication.
So when we find Jesus stating (in the ESV) the only lawful cause for divorce is fornication, what do we do?
1. Did he change the Deuteronomy 24 law?
ESV Luke 16:17-18
17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
Oops ESV. Apparently not one dot would become void but then he voids Deuteronomy 24:1-4??? Something isn’t right.
The easiest solution is often correct.
Put away is not equal to divorce.
I know some people minds just melted, you love your divorce doctrines… Don’t worry nothing changes, God still hates divorce.
Jesus was addressing the improper practice of putting away without the divorce certificate. A form of which still occurs today in Jewish circles, it’s sad really. Men put away, send out, separate from their wives, refuse to give the divorce certificate so they don’t have to pay alimony etc. The man is able to remarry but she is not.
Look up agunah: the chained wife, it’ll get y’all started down a wonderful study Lord willing.
But I tell you that anyone who puts away his wife… In other words, the only cause to put away your wife (without the divorce cert.) is fornication.
Is it lawful to put away your wife for any cause?
What’s the law say?
Law says put her away with a divorce cert.
Anyone who puts away his wife, except on the grounds of fornication is guilty.
I’m paraphrasing of course, but go look at the verse, Jesus omits the word divorce.
Look at Matthew 5:20 KJV Jesus starts this narrative, it hath been said… but I… He’s addressing the law, the practice of the law and the admonition of the scribes, Pharisees and the “lawful” Jews.
Matt5:31 it has been said, whosoever shall put away his wife let him give her a writing of divorcement.
Matt5:32 but I say to you, if you put away your wife, except for fornication, you cause her to commit adultery and whoever marries her.
Notice the ommitance. Jesus was protecting his daughters from spiteful, selfish men. Men who would boot the wife of their youth out, to mary a younger woman while keeping the original wife’s dowry and alimony which was only payable if she had the certificate. A form of which is still practiced today in the east.
Once seen the entire thing falls into place, from Deuteronomy through Corinthians.
Forgive my paraphrasing. Way past my bedtime.
Is it lawful to put away your wife for any cause?
What’s the law say?
Law says put her away with a divorce cert.
Anyone who puts away his wife, except on the grounds of fornication is guilty.
I’m paraphrasing of course, but go look at the verse, Jesus omits the word divorce.
Look at Matthew 5:20 KJV Jesus starts this narrative, it hath been said… but I… He’s addressing the law, the practice of the law and the admonition of the scribes, Pharisees and the “lawful” Jews.
Matt5:31 it has been said, whosoever shall put away his wife let him give her a writing of divorcement.
Matt5:32 but I say to you, if you put away your wife, except for fornication, you cause her to commit adultery and whoever marries her.
Notice the ommitance. Jesus was protecting his daughters from spiteful, selfish men. Men who would boot the wife of their youth out, to mary a younger woman while keeping the original wife’s dowry and alimony which was only payable if she had the certificate. A form of which is still practiced today in the east.
Once seen the entire thing falls into place, from Deuteronomy through Corinthians.
Forgive my paraphrasing. Way past my bedtime.
She’s not 😊 Because Jesus never said that.
Jesus did however say that if you put away a woman (without just cause of fornication) she and the one she marries are guilty.
Try this exercise, read it out aloud with me 😅
Pharisee: is it lawful to send away your wife for any cause?.
Jesus: what does the law command?
Pharisee: the law commands, if you send away your wife, you must give her a divorce certificate.
Jesus: unless she fornicate’s, you must send her away with the divorce certificate. If you send her a way for any other reason, without a divorce certificate, you cause her to commit adultery, as well as the one she marries.
Jesus did however say that if you put away a woman (without just cause of fornication) she and the one she marries are guilty.
Try this exercise, read it out aloud with me 😅
Pharisee: is it lawful to send away your wife for any cause?.
Jesus: what does the law command?
Pharisee: the law commands, if you send away your wife, you must give her a divorce certificate.
Jesus: unless she fornicate’s, you must send her away with the divorce certificate. If you send her a way for any other reason, without a divorce certificate, you cause her to commit adultery, as well as the one she marries.