The Heresy of Perfectionism

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A

Abiding

Guest
#381
#381
Oh i see, your saying zone is teaching a doctrine of demons because she stands against the doctrine of perfection.
Ok we have cleared up that Paul didnt acheive that, nor anyone in history ever has, you havnt, but you want to believe you will.
Well that is not really anything that can amount to saying she teaches a doctrines of demons, but i see you apparent fury over that. Im over that
now...but next you still need to find where she said that chronic sin is permissible?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#382
#382
I hope when im finished we are clear where we dont agree and why. Thats what is so great
in my opinion about the threads. If i want someone to agree with me ill go garden and talk to my self.
And even tho its wrong I dont get upset at small arguements. But slander and false accusations are
way to serious and I cant see letting that slide in a Christian forum. :)
 
Z

Zilla64007

Banned
#383
Jan 14, 2010
1,010
5
0
#383
zone said:
did ya read about Finney?
totally denied original sin, imputed righteousness...substitionary atonement..
every core doctrine.
Click to expand...
Well, when it comes to original sin, I agree with Finney, and for what it's worth, the ante-Nicene church did not believe in original sin either (original sin was taught by Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century, the same man who invented the 5 points of Calvinism & instituted the authority of the Roman church)... But that's all I agree with him on.
Doing a study on Charles Finney, his beliefs reflect those of Pelagianism, or the belief that a man can "will" himself into heaven through good works, sin is a natural part ofthe world, and a few other things (can't remember exactly, will look it up again and update in another post)... Many Calvinists lump him into the Arminian camp, and any other person who preaches Pelagianism. Calvinists do this because they don't understand the theology or doctrine of Arminianism. Arminianism/Non-Calvinism does teach that the human is indeed depraved to the point where they cannot save themselves... They can only be saved by Jesus Christ, but the choice must be made by the individual. Th human does not have the final say-so in his salvation... agod has always had the final say-so in salvation, but man does have the choice to make for Christ or against Christ... This is why it says in the Bible that we will be judged according to our works.

One other thing that was popularized by Charles Finney was the sinners prayer. In Finney's day, they had something called a "hot seat" in which a nonbeliever would sit in, and the preacher would make the nonbeliever feel lost, in sin, convicted, etc... The preacher wool then make an altar call, and the nonbeliever would respond emotionally... I no longer believe this because of my own experience concerning the sinners prayer in my own walk.


The bible never mentions anything about simply accepting Jesus into your heart... It dye to confess and believe in your heart, but that is only part of it. Jesus in Matthew made made reference to the tax collector in the synagogue crying out "have mercy on me, a sinner!", a genuine cry of repentance, not a prayer of accepting Jesus. Another example is James 4:8-10. James gives us an example of what true repentance is.

It is a combination of confession, repentance, baptism, and obedience to His Word in which we are saved.
Charles Finney was later asked concerning his questionable methods... Finney sai in response "let the fruit of my actions speak for itself"... Evangelicals later returned to the areas where he preached, and found his fruit to be bad fruit: many people have had false conversions because of this sinners prayer. I leads one to believe that all you have to do is believe, have faith, and nothing else matters... James 2:14-26 tells us something entirely different
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#384
#384
My dad used to say to me the longer one plays with fresh manure the longer one will make it stink, leave it alone it dries up and is blown away with the wind. Lol
 
4

4runner

Banned
#386
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#386
Abiding said:
Oh i see, your saying zone is teaching a doctrine of demons because she stands against the doctrine of perfection.
Ok we have cleared up that Paul didnt acheive that, nor anyone in history ever has, you havnt, but you want to believe you will.
Well that is not really anything that can amount to saying she teaches a doctrines of demons, but i see you apparent fury over that. Im over that
now...but next you still need to find where she said that chronic sin is permissible?
Click to expand...
Did Paul attain a level of sinlessness?
1 Corinthians 11
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ
He would not have said to follow him as he follows Christ if he wasn't following Christ perfectly.
2nd Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
Paul tell us not to compare ourselves with each other, but to look at him as our example
Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Paul tells us to make example of him and others, so not only Paul, but also others attained a state of sinlessness.


Here we see Paul stating that he had in effect attained.
2nd Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Living sinlessly for 1 or 5 or 10 oe 20 does not automatically give us eternal life remaining faith unto our death does. However living sinlessly is commandment from God to us. Furthermore God promises us that we are able to keep this command.





God promises us through His word that we can defeat sin, if we look closely at the word of God. There are many many promises that deal with that fact.

We are told that "in every temptation, God will make a way of escape that we will be able to bear it".

God said "sin shall not have dominion over you".

I literally can list twenty more...reckon yourself dead unto sin and alive unto God ''praise be to God who always causes us to triumph in Christ Jesus, lead me not into temptation but deliver me from evil'' and so forth.

I firmly believe we have mistakenly missed why he has saved us (to set us free) "You shall call His name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins" (now, in this life) to preserve us blameless unto the coming of the Lord. In the Bible, we are told "He that commits sin is the servant of sin, and the servant abides not in the house forever. But whom the Son sets free is free indeed."


We are told by Jesus Himself "Without me, you can do nothing." yet in the writings of Paul we are told "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.". Is this perhaps what Jesus meant when he expressed his deep concern that "when the Son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?" Do we believe (have faith in) these promises of God for our lives?

Personally speaking, the sins that make up my personal "Achilles heel", not unlike yours, are not small ones that God turns a blind eye at. However He has promised us freedon from these vices. I have found as that His promises are meant for even the most wretched...and they work. This faith of who we are in Christ is what constitutes our shield spoken of in Ephesians 6, "wherewith we shall quench ALL the fiery darts of the wicked one".

I hope this explanation at least opens up the door for dialog. I fully understand the potential for controversy with this teaching. It goes against all that we have been taught, that we slowly change from the old man to the new by a lifelong, never ending process. I believe we can reach a point of sinlessness where we truly do pratake of the divine nature of Christ, able to fully escape the corruption of this world. I contend that the only way the process can work as God intends is when we obey him and believe that "you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if the spirit dwells in you.", and that ''it is not we that live, but Christ that lives in us''

I believe that if we are truly experiencing the new covenant, then we will have complete victory over sin. To be a full grown son, we must be made free. I believe Jesus has made us free, all we must do now is walk in our freedom. When people say that we are not to make sin a habit, but yet everyone sins, and will not be completely freed from sin until the resurrection. They do not truly believe (have faith in the fact) that the Son can make us free indeed.

We are given the promise of freedom from sin how do we begin to walk in that freedom? By knowing Christ and who we are in Him and to Him.
2nd Peter 1
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


So if we sin then we are not free but still bound, but Jesus came to free us.
John 8
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Romans 6: 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life
Whoever sins is a servant of sin, but Jesus came to free us, and if we are truly free indeed then we would live no longer in sin.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
If this was true and we are dead to self and sin, and it is Christ who live in us then we would indeed live a sin free life.
 
Z

Zilla64007

Banned
#387
Jan 14, 2010
1,010
5
0
#387
I think this topic can be expressed below

Without Jesus Christ, it is impossible to be sinless, or perfect
With Jesus Christ it is very difficult to be sinless or perfect, but not impossible, because with God... And through Jesus Christ... all things are possible.
 
4

4runner

Banned
#388
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#388
Zilla64007 said:
I think this topic can be expressed below

Without Jesus Christ, it is impossible to be sinless, or perfect
With Jesus Christ it is very difficult to be sinless or perfect, but not impossible, because with God... And through Jesus Christ... all things are possible.
Click to expand...
Very well said
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#389
#389
Ok I see your position, this has been good. It probably is a waste of time for you to back up your
false accusations since I dont think there was any fault on zones part, not do I think your gona be able to find her saying]
chronic sin is permissable. She is aware all sin causes death. But hopefully if we label a person in here, we ought to know
that we should back it up, or apologise, as you should. I dont think I have that many close Christian friends that agree
with all my doctrines. And I dont expect them to. Id have to say anyone wanting to be holy and humble is alright with me.
But some teachings can hurt more than help. :)
 
4

4runner

Banned
#391
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#391
Abiding said:
Ok I see your position, this has been good. It probably is a waste of time for you to back up your
false accusations since I dont think there was any fault on zones part, not do I think your gona be able to find her saying]
chronic sin is permissable. She is aware all sin causes death. But hopefully if we label a person in here, we ought to know
that we should back it up, or apologise, as you should. I dont think I have that many close Christian friends that agree
with all my doctrines. And I dont expect them to. Id have to say anyone wanting to be holy and humble is alright with me.
But some teachings can hurt more than help. :)
Click to expand...
Outside of Jesus being fully God and fully human (by the way I didnt see you challenge her accusation that I do not believe in the humanity of Christ), and Jesus being Savior. I dont think there would be anything else me and zone agree on.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#392
#392
Abiding said:
Ok I see your position, this has been good. It probably is a waste of time for you to back up your
false accusations since I dont think there was any fault on zones part, not do I think your gona be able to find her saying]
chronic sin is permissable. She is aware all sin causes death. But hopefully if we label a person in here, we ought to know
that we should back it up, or apologise, as you should. I dont think I have that many close Christian friends that agree
with all my doctrines. And I dont expect them to. Id have to say anyone wanting to be holy and humble is alright with me.
But some teachings can hurt more than help. :)
Click to expand...
I still did not see proof where zone said what he said she did. Why is he hiding?
 
4

4runner

Banned
#393
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#393
The fact she created this thread is enough proof for me ;)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#394
#394
I heard a saying once which I think fits.

Take a two glasses

fill one halfway with water, and the other half urine.

take the other, fill it all the way with water. and put a drop of urine in it.

which glass would you drink?

These two glasses represent the high and low of mankind. The half full glass of urine is the evil sinner who had done everything imaginable

the glass with only a drop of urine is the person who lived a righteous life. and had very few sins to show for it.

handing it to god is saying here God. here I am take me as I am. do you think God is going to let either one in? When it comes to their works. no. But Christ has cleansed both cups with his blood. If the blood of Christ has washed you. then both glasses are perfectly safe for consumption. as if the urine was never there in the first place. This is what the gsopel of grace teaches.

Sanctification teaches that as the half full person grows in Christ more water is added, and the glass starts to look more like the glass full of water. Where as the person who was represented by the full glass of water realize they actually had more urin than just a drop. and they to strive to make it a full glass of water.

Pride says you will get there. Humility realizes you never will.

When we stand in front of Christ on judgment day. No matter who we are. All we will have to offer god is glasses of water contaminated with urine. If Jesus has not washed our cups with his blood. We will be doomed forever. Because God will reject our glass. If Jesus has washed our glasses. We get in. Not because our cup was worthy. But because of what Jesus did./ he washed us white as snow.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#395
#395
zone said:
what should we do about all this?















Luke 3
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.



do you want this forgiven? is it sin?

or is it just mistakes?
Click to expand...



See 4runner the first you mentioned that she threw up her evidence.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#396
#396
ok it didnt print the same ill try again. ill bring the post number where she backed it up :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#397
#397
Abiding said:
See 4runner the first you mentioned that she threw up her evidence.
Click to expand...

yeah how ironic. The one demanding perfection is caught in sin ..lol
 
4

4runner

Banned
#398
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#398
eternally-gratefull said:
I heard a saying once which I think fits.

Take a two glasses

fill one halfway with water, and the other half urine.

take the other, fill it all the way with water. and put a drop of urine in it.

which glass would you drink?

These two glasses represent the high and low of mankind. The half full glass of urine is the evil sinner who had done everything imaginable

the glass with only a drop of urine is the person who lived a righteous life. and had very few sins to show for it.

handing it to god is saying here God. here I am take me as I am. do you think God is going to let either one in? When it comes to their works. no. But Christ has cleansed both cups with his blood. If the blood of Christ has washed you. then both glasses are perfectly safe for consumption. as if the urine was never there in the first place. This is what the gsopel of grace teaches.

Sanctification teaches that as the half full person grows in Christ more water is added, and the glass starts to look more like the glass full of water. Where as the person who was represented by the full glass of water realize they actually had more urin than just a drop. and they to strive to make it a full glass of water.

Pride says you will get there. Humility realizes you never will.

When we stand in front of Christ on judgment day. No matter who we are. All we will have to offer god is glasses of water contaminated with urine. If Jesus has not washed our cups with his blood. We will be doomed forever. Because God will reject our glass. If Jesus has washed our glasses. We get in. Not because our cup was worthy. But because of what Jesus did./ he washed us white as snow.
Click to expand...
I dont think you understand what is being discussed at all. Nobody is saying that we can ever be good enough in and of ourselves.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#399
#399
4runner said:
I dontthink you understand what is being discussed at all. nobody think that we can ever be good enough in and of ourselves.
Click to expand...
I understand it quite well. Evidently you did not read the last few sentences.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#400
#400
#337 4runner, i remember you asked and she popped it right up :)
 
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