The Heresy of Perfectionism

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. (except freeing men from the sin, according to you at least)
yeah your right. But if a sinner can't be saved who can??
 
Jun 24, 2010
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Abiding,

A sinner is one that has fallen short and has no power to get up without falling short again and again. A sinner is someone that needs mercy to take away what he deserves and needs grace to give him what he does not deserve. If he or she is a saved, blood bought redeemed sinner that has been justified, they need the same things again, again and again, over and over and over. Those that love much have been forgiven much. Forgiven of what, eating too much pizza? No, forgiven of personal sin. Mercy and grace, mercy and grace, mercy and grace. Do you think there is any significance to the opening and closing of Paul's letters to the churches that began and closed with mercy, grace and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ. What would I need mercy and grace for on this earth,being in this earthen vessel, if I was not a sinner.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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4runner wants to be perfect and be sinless without grace and that can't happen. He will never learn to forgive the sin of others until he has been forgiven of his sin. He will never be able to give others grace when they sin until God is able to give him grace when he sins. It is impossible for any believer to live a life pleasing to God without mercy and grace because they are sinners that have been justified positionally but are nor perfect in their experience because of sin.
 
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Abiding

Guest
You are unbelievable a sinner is one who continues in chronic, unrepentant sin

Why do you have such little patience? If presumption is a sin, which to me
its one of the worst sins, it leads to false ideas of people. Thankyou for your
definition. :)


You say....chronic, unrepentant sin. ok

That changes everything. First of all. is that the biblical definition of " sinner"
If not then we wont be able to dialogue.
My belief is that your wrong.

My belief is that those who are continuing in chronic, unrepentant are sinners, and also those who ever commit a sin are sinners, whether on purpose or just in weakness.

See if you are feeding that into what other paople are saying, than you are committing a big error
and totally misunderstanding them...no wonder you make all these false accusations.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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I Peter 1
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
 
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Abiding

Guest
Abiding,

A sinner is one that has fallen short and has no power to get up without falling short again and again. A sinner is someone that needs mercy to take away what he deserves and needs grace to give him what he does not deserve. If he or she is a saved, blood bought redeemed sinner that has been justified, they need the same things again, again and again, over and over and over. Those that love much have been forgiven much. Forgiven of what, eating too much pizza? No, forgiven of personal sin. Mercy and grace, mercy and grace, mercy and grace. Do you think there is any significance to the opening and closing of Paul's letters to the churches that began and closed with mercy, grace and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ. What would I need mercy and grace for on this earth,being in this earthen vessel, if I was not a sinner.

Exactly, and there is no attainment really. If we continue to abide in Him and His words abide in us
we will bear fruit. If we slack, we will fall behind, grow weak, and fail again. Without Him we can do nothing.
Everyday Is a day we are in need to be filled with His grace. We cant let our strength deceive us to where we dont pray for His grace to save us from our strengths and goodnesses also. Take heed lest ye fall. Not to think of ourselves more highly than we out to think, but soberly. opps...started a sermon. But He is always willing to fill us, if we ask. amen
 
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Abiding

Guest
4 runner did you see my definition of sinner?


That i include in the definition that even sins we didnt actually do on purpose or did as an action in weakness
that we are grieved over and repent from makes us a sinner.

Do you agree? by definition, only.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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4 runner did you see my definition of sinner?


That i include in the definition that even sins we didnt actually do on purpose or did as an action in weakness
that we are grieved over and repent from makes us a sinner.

Do you agree? by definition, only.
No I dont. I believe someone who dilibertly, and purposely continues in sin is a sinner.
 
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Abiding

Guest
No I dont. I believe someone who dilibertly, and purposely continues in sin is a sinner.

Well I see now why you argue so much. If you ask around, youll find that most believers
mean what I said. That until you are perfect, your a sinner.


The subject of license, overt carefree sin etc is a totally different subject.
So your agueing and namecalling and accusations mean nothing, becuase there
is a serious difference in your defination.

Do you agree that you difference in difination is a big problem?
 
Jul 3, 2011
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Well I see now why you argue so much. If you ask around, youll find that most believers
mean what I said. That until you are perfect, your a sinner.


The subject of license, overt carefree sin etc is a totally different subject.
So your agueing and namecalling and accusations mean nothing, becuase there
is a serious difference in your defination.

Do you agree that you difference in difination is a big problem?
Zone believes chronic sin is permissable
 

rafaelsald

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2009
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Rafaelsald, Let me ask you this... Where is Jesus right now? If He is not in you, then you are still here and if He is in you, what gift did HE give you? Look what the Word preaches....Awake, Rafaelsald, Awake to righteousness, and SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak to your shame... This is scripture you quoted Rafaelsald! Please show me the verse that says we remain in this flesh! Did Jesus remain in the flesh? How come Jesus came into the FLESH of Saul and made him the holy Paul! FILLED WITH JESUS! Saul was the sinner, Paul was the Holy Preacher, Filled with Holy Spirit! Paul went to heaven and came back, to third heaven. To paradise! Ezekiel 8...Ezekiel was taken to Jerusalem while he was in his house with the elders of Judah whom sat there in the house with him. Read it. Now how can a man be to plaes at the same time? See there is still much you have to learn. We are not bound to this body! God can do what He wants. If He wants to take you to Himself right now, like He did in this two men then He can and will if He wants too. Now the question is WHERE does God want me to be.... Well that depends what you think where IS JESUS! Becasue God says it straight out John 17.... Father as thou hast given HIM the power over ALL FLESH, that HE should give eternal life to as many as THOU HAST GIVEN HIM!... Now if God gives me to Jesus where does Jesus take me? Did He not say NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME....!!! Yes He did, so Father give me to Jesus so that i can FOLLOW Him! And Jesus says clearly.. Take up your cross and follow me.. why? ... Jesus says.. those that want to save their lives lives shall lose it, but those that lose it for His Name sake shall FIND it! That is the LIFE WITHOUT SIN! Becasue we lose the life of sin we find the life without sin. So Jesus says bring your cross and NAIL your sin to the cross, that means nail your sinful life on the cross. STOP SINNING! Plain and simple! Now you say we cannot do it, well you do not differ with me, I am not the one that said ... Go and sin no more, it was Jesus! And look NOBODY not even the adultress argued with Him, but you want to! You say to Jesus... Hey Jesus, we are TRAPPED in this sinful body... And Jesus says... COME TO ME I WILL GIVE YOU PEACE, AND MAKE YOU FREE. And Jesus even says this... If I make you free you are FREE INDEED!
Now let me SHOW you with HIS Word how He accomplish this.... And this is all from God's OWN MOUTH!!! HIS WORD!!!! Jesus says this in John 17:24.... Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
Now where is Jesus and where am I. If you say Jesus is here, and I am with Him, then ok, we are still IN ONE PLACE. And if you say Jesus is in heaven then it is also ok, then we are still in ONE PLACE. But can we be in heaven and here on earth at the SAME TIME? Can i be here but still IN HEAVEN WITH JESUS, beholding HIS GLORY? YES!!! that is it... Jesus said Behold the KINGDOM HAS COME NEAR.... But right after Jesus spoke to Mary He said... Woman touch me not for i have NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER... Then he returns a while later and said to Thomas... Put your hand in my side ... Jesus also said to Mary Go and tell the brethren i ascend to my Father AND THEIRS to my GOD AND THEIRS... And then Jesus says NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT TRHOUGH ME... That means I can go to FATHER RIGHT NOW WHILE I AM HERE! Why becasue Jesus said.... John 14:12... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
That means Jesus went to Father and did He not also say... If i love Him i will obey Him and the Father would love me and THEY will make their abode with me. See if I go to heaven they come here, and i am here and heaven is here. i am in heaven already and Jesus is here in me already and i am IN him already, and the flesh is just a vessel containing all these things! The flesh profits nothing, and I ganied the GOD OF HEAVEN IN SPIRIT! But do not be fooled, becasue I LOST my sinful life, this fleah is DEAD to sin, and this flesh CANNOT SIN BECASUE THE SEED of GOD in now IN THIS FLESH! Jesus and God's KINGDOM is now in this flesh... As it was in Jesus, and I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD ANY MORE. Sin is only of this world, and becasue i am not of this world i am no longer in a sinful body but a NEW created body... Behold old things has passed..DIED!!! and Everything is now NEW... HOLY AND PERFECT!... Was Jesus still perfect even though he was full of holes? YES!!!! When He appeared to the disciples he still had the holes in Him, but now He walked thorugh walls? And did He not say... You will recieve POWER when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.... How big is that power? can it be the power over the flesh? YES!!!! So my friend you can stay in your flesh, me, No! I choose to leave this flesh FOR JESUS! I want to be where HE IS, and if HE is not in this flesh, then I do not want to be in this flesh... I hope you see the FREEDOM Jesus offers!... Bye May you be blessed with Truth.
First of all, I think we're having a communication problem.

I didn’t say that a person saved by the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, will continue to practice the works of the flesh without remorse or repentance.

What I tried to say was that even being accepted as adopted children of God, we are still stuck in this body that is not perfect due to the Fall of Adam. Thus, the Holy Spirit (who dwells in us) militates against this body.

In Romans 7:14-25, Paul describes himself and the believers in general that even being in Christ and free from the condemnation of the law, they still don't meet perfectly the requirements of the law. Paul was aware that God's law is "spiritual" (v. 14). Indeed, he delighted in the law of God, desiring to fulfill it perfectly (vs.15-23), and he was distressed because of sin that opposed that desire. But he was pleased at the prospect of a future deliverance of his frustration (v. 24; Romans 8:23)

So the Christian lives in two worlds at once. This is why “the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other” (Galatians 5:17). The victory against the enemy (the sin that dwells in us) doesn’t come without a struggle. The victory is only through Jesus Christ.

So, does it mean that in our pilgrimage we will not sin anymore? Of course not! Christ himself assumes that we will sin in this life (Matthew 6:12). But the difference is that the true christian struggle against sin and the wicked delight in sin.

When Christ redeemed us, He not only redeemed our spirit (or soul), He redeemed us as whole persons, and that includes the redemption of our body. Therefore, the application of the redemptive work of Christ for us will not be complete until the body be entirely free from the effects of the fall and thus taken to the state of perfection for which God created it. In fact, the redemption of our body will only happen when Christ returns and raise him from the dead. But at the present time, Paul says that we hope for "redemption of our body" and then adds: "For we are saved by hope" (Romans 8.23,24)

Shalom
 
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Abiding

Guest
Zone believes chronic sin is permissable
really did she say that? And if so did she mean deliberate? Or did you read into what she said
And again if so did she mean permissable, or forgivable? by the way can you tell me when she said that
or pull it up for me please?
 
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Abiding

Guest
One other thing do you disagree with me. that if you sin for any reason you are a sinner?
I still am not sure our terms are understood
 
Jul 3, 2011
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Exodus 20:16
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor

how's that sin problem?
Like when you claimed I deny the humanity of Christ????

Yeah, I have it under control. how about you?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Like when you claimed I deny the humanity of Christ????

Yeah, I have it under control. how about you?
what should we do about all this?

Some like zone, will even tell you that you can take sin into heaven with you- Don't follow them, Follow Christ
The saved sinner doctrine is straight from Hell. Only Satan wants believers to think they are still sinners. Further more her reformed calvinistic beliefs are all demonic at their roots. Just like humans we can see true and false doctrine by their fruit. Calvinism has nothing but corrupt fruit. These doctrine are popular because they tickle the ear, rathwer than convict the soul.
saved sinner, that is a doctrine of demons
The teaching of the saved sinner, that is demonic
Swine were associated with filth and were also used by Peter regarding the fallen away ones. It was appropriate that the prodigal son ended up "feeding the swine"

The swine will trample the pearls under foot. When presented with the gospel, the swine will be seen desecrating the message of the gospel. It is they who often contend that man’s salvation is by grace alone and that it does not matter how christians live. They cheapen the grace of God and turn it into a license to commit sin.
Your strawman has no legs. I do not deny the humanity of Christ. I affirm it quite strongly.

You are one of the dogs, and swine Jesus warned us not to share our pearls with..
Nowhere will you find that Jesus was Mary's biological child in scripture
Luke 3
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Have you ever thought of repenting and allowing Jesus to free you from your flesh?
do you want this forgiven? is it sin?

or is it just mistakes?
 
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Abiding

Guest
4 runner have u got that post yet from zone?

that says that chronic sin is permissable?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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still waiting.....


how much time does someone get to decide about sin?
Abiding? any idea?
 
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