The Heresy of Perfectionism

[AnandaHya]

you still have your sinful flesh and your obedience to the will of God is not perfect like Jesus was. that is why Jesus is needed as an mediator for when we transgress. not if, WHEN.

that is why Jesus taught his disciples to pray DAILY for forgiveness of their sins and transgressions and to forgive others because of their own need for forgiveness.

it is to keep His disciples humble. that is why Paul had a thorn in his flesh, to keep him humble despite the divine visions he experienced. It reminds him it is only through God's grace through His son Jesus Christ that anyone is made righteous. Not through our own works but justification through FAITH.

If you have FAITH in Jesus Christ and what HE did on the cross then you will have fruit and obey and complete the works and race God has planned for you to do when He created you.

Salvation is not given to the lawless but the ones who submit to GOD and His will. His will is to save the world through Faith in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins upon His death on the cross and resurrection.

you don't channel Jesus. you grow and learn to make your flesh obey your will as your will is transformed into the likeness of Christ and made into oneness with His will for you and this world through submission and obedience. You have been given a new heart and new spirit. the flesh is still corrupted and must be made to submit to God's will. this is done through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and by the grace of GOD not by what we do but what we allow God to do in us and our lives.

ok explain why does Jesus teach His disciples to pray daily for forgiveness of their sins?

hate to break it to you 4runner you still sin.

I still sin, not willingly but sin is sin, rather you know the law or not you are still breaking it. Pleading ignorance or the serpent made me do is does not buy it. Sin is anything that keeps you from COMPLETE obedience to GOD.

Pride is a sin. Placing stumbling blocks before your brethren is sin. Casting doubts on people's salvation and causing them to stumble is a sin. Judging others falsely is a sin.

How have I sinned today? maybe my clothing made someone who saw me lustful. that is a sin because I caused them to stumble. maybe I did not point to Jesus enough. maybe I was suppose to talk to that person and help them. maybe I didn't do something God placed in my heart to do. maybe through fear of embrassment or reject or doing something wrong I did not speak boldly of God and His salvation. Maybe my words offended someone or lead someone down the wrong path away from God instead of towards Him. Maybe I spoke in anger and impatience to the kids when they started fighting instead of acting out God's love fully to them.

anyway thinking about it all has made me sad so I will just say, please reread my words. I do not speak of hyper whatever you called, but neither do I believe that once God has spoken in the heart of a person and told them they are HIS child, can they be lost. God is able to cleanse and purify even the most retropbate sinner.

saying that people sin is not saying it is ok or right, but admitting what state we are in and having faith that GOD will work in us and our life to make us perfect as Christ is perfect in will and obedience to God in our lives. Faith in the future is not denying the present and covering up our transgression but admitting to God we have done wrong, repenting and allowing God to heal us through faith and His love and grace.

question: is your flesh still corrupt or not?

that was the purpose of posting the scripture to state that your flesh is still corrupt but you are not listening so why do I bother....

 

[4runner]

A true Christian is a person who has been delivered from the service of sin and has become a servant of Jesus. We are all slaves to the power we have chosen to obey; that power is either God in Christ or selfishness. No man is a true Christian who has not made the Lord Jesus LORD of "all areas" of his life.

 

[4runner]

ok explain why does Jesus teach His disciples to pray daily for forgiveness of their sins?

hate to break it to you 4runner you still sin.

That is an assumption at best

Pride is a sin

Believing God over you is not prideful, you expecting me to bow to your opinion is

Placing stumbling blocks before your brethren is sin.

If teaching righteousness causes you to stumble then you are worse off than you think

Casting doubts on people's salvation

those that are truly Christ's know they are His. i certainly can do noting to make them doubt it

 

[AnandaHya]

question: is your flesh still corrupt or not?

that was the purpose of posting the scripture to state that your flesh is still corrupt but you are not listening so why do I bother....

Lord give me patience.....

causing others to be angry by calling them wolves, demon spawn, etc is considered placing a stumbling block before your brethren.....

I just had a conversation with a lovely elderly today who told me she felt unworthy to take communion because she believed someone who was teaching perfectionist doctrines. she believed God was her lord and savior and tried her best to follow the Holy Spirit but she still felt unworthy.

what would you tell someone like that? someone who has the Holy Spirit testify that she is a child of God but felt bad because she didn't read the Bible as much as someone told her she should, did not do this or that....

 

[4runner]

Originally Posted by AnandaHya

question: is your flesh still corrupt or not?

that was the purpose of posting the scripture to state that your flesh is still corrupt but you are not listening so why do I bother...

My flesh is dead, and I am now free to obey my God.

 

[Consumed]

A true Christian is a person who has been delivered from the service of sin and has become a servant of Jesus. We are all slaves to the power we have chosen to obey; that power is either God in Christ or selfishness. No man is a true Christian who has not made the Lord Jesus LORD of "all areas" of his life.

A mature Christian doesn't scatter others by condemning them but understands God is in the process of sanctification with us all, knows that love doesn't look at the outward appearance but see people as He does, knows to water the seed planted in another, love is patient kind not boastful or rude,

We can know everything but love is the fruit of being grafted in the vine. No condemnation .

 

[4runner]

A mature Christian doesn't scatter others by condemning them but understands God is in the process of sanctification with us all, knows that love doesn't look at the outward appearance but see people as He does, knows to water the seed planted in another, love is patient kind not boastful or rude,

We can know everything but love is the fruit of being grafted in the vine. No condemnation .

I couldn't agree more

 

[AnandaHya]

My flesh is dead, and I am now free to obey my God.

you are deluding yourself. your flesh is not dead until you stop breathing and you actually DIE.

where in the Bible does it say that your FLESH is dead and it allows you to be free to obey GOD?

It is through the HOLY SPIRIT that people are able to follow God's commandments, not because temptation from the flesh is completely Removed and made DEAD.

I have read where it says people are DEAD and made ALIVE in Spirit in Jesus but nothing about how flesh is killed when that happens.

the body is not resurrected until the second coming of Jesus.

so please show me scripture for this belief of yours that

the flesh stops tempting you to sin, that the flesh dies upon salvation

and I will apologize if you can show me that you are not deluded but actually have scriptural basis for your thoughts and ideas in this matter.

you do know consumed is referring to YOU right? your words are scattering people and pouring poison on their seed but you refuse to see and repent of it.

I thank God that He is more powerful then immature Christians and His love is UNCONDITIONAL and not as many would try and control for their purposes.

 

[4runner]

you are deluding yourself. your flesh is not dead until you stop breathing and you actually DIE.

Is that what Paul meant when he wrote this????????

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If this is true (which it is, because it is God's word) Then are flesh is dead, and we are dead to self and sin, and it is Christ who live in us. Therefore we are free to live a sin free life.

 

[Consumed]

My flesh is dead, and I am now free to obey my God.

Flesh as in "self" I take it you mean. Ok litmus test, some gives a remark or makes a statement offensive, self wants, needs to justify itself, leaves love out and throws a condemning statement back, self is alive and doing quite well then not dead. Dead to self will turn the other cheek and respond with love having no need to defend themselves. Food for thought

 

[AnandaHya]

sigh....

1 Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[AnandaHya]

Flesh as in "self" I take it you mean. Ok litmus test, some gives a remark or makes a statement offensive, self wants, needs to justify itself, leaves love out and throws a condemning statement back, self is alive and doing quite well then not dead. Dead to self will turn the other cheek and respond with love having no need to defend themselves. Food for thought

I love you consumed. Sisterly Hugs I'm going to spend some time with our Father. ttyl

 

[Marcella]

This reminds me of what my best friend's father believes. He says that because he is saved, he's no longer a sinner, or something like that. Anyway, he says it's because Jesus died for all our sins, (past-present-future) so that even if he does commit a sin, it's instantly forgiven and forgotten.


It made me think, "wha??" He's got other interesting little tidbits that are kwirky, but I'll leave that to another post.


From what I've read in the Scriptures, I am a sinner, but I am saved by grace, through my faith in the Messiah as my Redeemer.

Marcella

 

[4runner]

where in the Bible does it say that your FLESH is dead and it allows you to be free to obey GOD?

Romans 8
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is through the HOLY SPIRIT that people are able to follow God's commandments, not because temptation from the flesh is completely Removed and made DEAD.

I agree, we are still tempted, and able to obey because of God's power not ours

I have read where it says people are DEAD and made ALIVE in Spirit in Jesus but nothing about how flesh is killed when that happens.

If we are dead, and made in the spirit, what does that mean to you?

the body is not resurrected until the second coming of Jesus.

Your right

so please show me scripture for this belief of yours that

the flesh stops tempting you to sin, that the flesh dies upon salvation

We are tempted, but scripture does say our flesh is dead, to us who walk in the Spirit.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

and I will apologize if you can show me that you are not deluded but actually have scriptural basis for your thoughts and ideas in this matter.

Go ahead apologize

you do know consumed is referring to YOU right? your words are scattering people and pouring poison on their seed but you refuse to see and repent of it.

Your opinion and truth are not equal. Yours, or Consumed opinion matters little to me. Only God's opinion matters.

1st Corinthians 4
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

I thank God that He is more powerful then immature Christians and His love is UNCONDITIONAL and not as many would try and control for their purposes.

God's love is uncondition, but Salvation is not


Now i have a question for you?

Should I listen to you and make provision for my flesh, or listen to God and reckon myself dead to sin, and self, making no provision for my flesh????????

Romans 13
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

 

[4runner]

Flesh as in "self" I take it you mean. Ok litmus test, some gives a remark or makes a statement offensive, self wants, needs to justify itself, leaves love out and throws a condemning statement back, self is alive and doing quite well then not dead. Dead to self will turn the other cheek and respond with love having no need to defend themselves. Food for thought

Kind of like Jesus did here?

Matthew 23
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

 

[4runner]

This reminds me of what my best friend's father believes. He says that because he is saved, he's no longer a sinner, or something like that. Anyway, he says it's because Jesus died for all our sins, (past-present-future) so that even if he does commit a sin, it's instantly forgiven and forgotten.


It made me think, "wha??" He's got other interesting little tidbits that are kwirky, but I'll leave that to another post.


From what I've read in the Scriptures, I am a sinner, but I am saved by grace, through my faith in the Messiah as my Redeemer.

Marcella

If you and your bf father combined your beliefs you would have it right. Because you are saved you are no longer a sinner, but you cannot continue in sin. only our past sin were forgiven at salvation

 

[AnandaHya]

Now i have a question for you?

Should I listen to you and make provision for my flesh, or listen to God and reckon myself dead to sin, and self, making no provision for my flesh????????

Romans 13
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Make it simple for you and blunt because hints are not working and I pray to God that it comes out right and according to His will.

I am not saying to make provisions for your flesh.

I am stating you are WALKING IN THE FLESH by your pride and you are harming those around you and you don't seem to care or notice. I am NOT judging before you jump that gun. I am trying to bring to your notice something you are allowing yourself be blind and deceived about.

I am NOT saying you should not try and be righteous and obey GOD but that YOU ARE NOT DOING IT.

you're still not listening,

why am I even posting God?

 

[Consumed]

4runner I wasn't addressing her at all, her posts are not condemning anyway shape or form. Your "self" doesn't allow you to see the truth of what she is saying overall, to lighten up, one can talk scripture all one likes yet if there is no love, compassion nor understanding, (it's all about love His love), then it just becomes a clanging symbol. I love your passion for the things of God and people to embrace the cross but cringe when it's turned into something it's just not suppose to be. Anandyha has a gentle spirit bro, pls don't imply otherwise. We all fall for satans bait in this along our walk, I say this as a encouragement to you not as anything else.

 

[4runner]

Make it simple for you and blunt because hints are not working and I pray to God that it comes out right and according to His will.

I am not saying to make provisions for your flesh.

I am stating you are WALKING IN THE FLESH

No I walk in the Spirit, and you should too

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

By your own admission you walk in the flesh therefore according to scripture you cannot please God, and what is worse you insist I do the same

by your pride and you are harming those around you and you don't seem to care or notice.

It is obvious to me you are the one that is prideful. Ignoring the plain meaning of scripture and inserting your own opinions as truth

I am NOT judging before you jump that gun.

Wouldnt care if you were

I am trying to bring to your notice something you are allowing yourself be blind and deceived about.

You are the blind one. God's word supports me and opposes you

 

[4runner]

4runner I wasn't addressing her at all, her posts are not condemning anyway shape or form. Your "self" doesn't allow you to see the truth of what she is saying overall,.

God's words dont allow me to here her. I know the voice of the Shepherd, and a strangers voice I will not follow