The Heresy of Perfectionism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I totally agree. The point i am making is that Zone seems to me to be held to a lesser standard, not higher, and when anyone challenges her, her whole crew stand up and says stop that you unloving, judgmental grace denier.

I agree with you completely she needs to be held to the same standard as everyone else.
WHAT?
you've got my feet to the fire every 5 minutes.
i'm okay with that.

BUT YOU AIN'T USING THE GOOD BOOK TO DO IT.

BRING IT ON.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I dont think you are in her crew, but she certainly has one. I really do not believe she is in Christ

I appreciate the sentiment, but if you start about 5 or 6 pages back you would see what i mean, and no one, not even you said a thing.
i'm ok with that coming from you.
:D
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
WHAT?
you've got my feet to the fire every 5 minutes.
i'm okay with that.

BUT YOU AIN'T USING THE GOOD BOOK TO DO IT.

BRING IT ON.
I posted more scripture than anyone in this thread. I know God's word is on my side on this issue, and you do too, that is why you hate me.
 
F

FireOnTheAltar

Guest
Anyways, I've had enough of this conversation. If you all choose to ignore the consistant bad bahaviour then that's your business however, the bible tells us that we can judge a person according to their fruit. Zone's fruit has been consistantly confrontational and argumentative.

It's one thing to know the word, it's completely different thing to live by it.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I posted more scripture than anyone in this thread. I know God's word is on my side on this issue, and you do too, that is why you hate me.
i don't hate you.
i feel sorry for you though.
i know that if you are saved, you're in for a little CO-rrection....scourgin'
oops!
see ya.
 
N

NoahsMom

Guest
4 runner, your prolly gonna disagree with me, and thats ok , but I feel nobody has the right to tell somebody they are goin to hell, a heretic, a devil etc, and heres why, We know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about this person other than what we are told on a computer screen, we dont walk their daily walk, and we sure dont see the heart like God does. You can ask zone, Im sure she will tell you I have said this to many ppl, many times, and yes, she and I butted heads in the beginning, then I just sat back, and listened and watched, you have to OBSERVE someone for a while ( in my opinion) to actually see who and what they are. NOW, Im for ppl such as yourself and zone standing up for what you feel called to do as the right thing, and I know " you shall know them by their fruits", I personally tend to try and get to know people, and more importantly LISTEN and WATCH, before I come to any conclusions, the way I see it, and MANY will disagree and thats FINE by me, we catch em, let God do the cleaning..
 
C

Consumed

Guest
This is the deal Consumed...........Zone and I differ in I am charismatic, I believe the gifts have not ceased, HOWEVER , ANYTIME I have felt offended, she explains to me its not personal, and I KNOW its not in her to hurt one hair on my head, she is doin what she feels called to do , and I WOULD NEVER tell her not to, she knows where she stands in God, and who am I to tell her where that is? All I can do is pray she finds her way, and I know she will, she is strong and she has the desire to get there. People act like she has NO feelings, NO love, let me explain something, GOD SAYS DIFFERENT, I guarentee you he looks at her NO different than any of the rest of us, he didnt die for SOME, he died for ALL. I for one am proud to call her my sister in christ, and if that damns me to hell in somes eyes here, then so be it.
Well said, my sentiments exactly mom, iv learnt so much from zone about things I never thought to read, she is a blessing to the body, God refines us as we go, I'm not perfect, we all are passionate about Christ, many members make the body, we all encourage each other daily. My passion, His love for us all, His commandment we love one another as He has loved us and demonstrated it at the cross in full open view to all, in the process of sanctification scripture tells me to bare the brethren, even that says to me as hard as it is to love for some now, hang in there He is faithful to change us into His image and likeness. Love never fails.

How awesome is our God
Blessings
 
Jul 25, 2011
164
2
0
The word of God judges them. You know, as scripture teaches, that we are to judge and rebuke those who are in the church. It is true love to warn someone that the road they are on may lead them to death and hell. Really, how much do you have to hate someone to not tell them about the truth of Jesus Christ?

I am not addressing this to anyone in particular... let us love each other and unite in spirit and in truth!

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." 1 Corinthians 1:10
 
U

unclefester

Guest
Did anyone stop to think that 4runner mighgt not have enguaged in this behaviour if not provoked to do so by Zone's obsession with calling everyone a heretic who disagrees with her in the slightest?

Define slightest ? And no,.....I haven't stopped to think. Didn't have to. 4runner is not sinless in the flesh. And neither are you.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
All you have to do is disagree with Zone and you are automatically labeled a heretic, then ridiculed consistantly I might add.. I have seen this time after time after time.

Yup.....me too. About as often as we see somebody on this forum informing us that they are God's latest and greatest prophet with a word of condemnation for Christ's church. Slight disagreements of that nature :)
 
C

Consumed

Guest
The word of God judges them. You know, as scripture teaches, that we are to judge and rebuke those who are in the church. It is true love to warn someone that the road they are on may lead them to death and hell. Really, how much do you have to hate someone to not tell them about the truth of Jesus Christ?

I am not addressing this to anyone in particular... let us love each other and unite in spirit and in truth!

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." 1 Corinthians 1:10
With all respect
every denomination in Christ rebuking each other and yet we are of the same mind and accord??, Jesus is Lord. This is a forum of Christian "like minded children of God" who come to share and challenge each other but when it turns ugly we should all hang our head in shame. Don't care who it is, I don't agree with alot stuff on here and try my best to be civil explaining when I do, that's a choice. People can disagree and be civil I'm sure you can agree.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
you defend the Five Fold Minstries
and here we have it.

Who but satan would be against God's chosen ministers?
i am against the NAR today, just like i was yesterday, and just like tomorrow.
these guys are hurting the church, but we will rout them out.

interesting they are the Manifest Sons of God who say THEY will reach perfection in this life.

Fivefold Ministry Makes a Comeback



DF400
Doug LeBlanc

This article first appeared in the News Watch column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 22, number 1 (1999). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

The two cassette tapes are eerie. One speaker, Bill Hamon, urges the congregation to invite “war angels” into the sanctuary and uses sound effects — “Whish!” — as he suggests the angels are arriving. Another speaker, Cindy Jacobs, foresees revival coming to the Latter-day Saints Temple in Salt Lake City and to Freemasons within the Southern Baptist Convention. She speaks of God giving instant sex-change operations to transvestites on New Orleans’s debauched Bourbon Street. She notes that the anointing of the Holy Spirit now resides in her left arm, having moved from her right arm.

Yet another speaker, working his way to a crescendo of sobs, says Christians must “drop the stones of intolerance and judgment” toward President Bill Clinton (the nation was emerging slowly from the year-long scandal and impeachment of President Clinton). Amid many of these messages, a contemporary combo plays haunting, jazzy background music.

In a transcript from the same gathering, the group refers to a possible war against the United States by a Chinese-Islamic alliance — unless Christians pray diligently enough to prevent it. Individuals predicted more terrorist attacks in the United States, some possibly involving attacks on school buses.

Prophets and Apostles among Us? The tapes and transcript document a January 29 session at a conference called the National School of Prophets, which took place at the nondenominational New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Ted Haggard, the pastor of New Life Church, is the author of the books Primary Purpose and The Life-Giving Church.

The doctrines of fivefold ministry date at least as far back as the Latter Rain movement, which emerged in 1948. In his book The New Charismatics (Zondervan, 1992), Michael G. Moriarty identifies the following seven points as the Latter Rain movement’s “doctrinal contributions to neo-Pentecostalism”:

Restorationism — The belief that God has progressively restored truths to the church since the Reformation, including justification by faith, water baptism by immersion, holiness, divine healing, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and, finally, the fivefold ministry.
Fivefold ministry — The view that “the church cannot be fully effective without all five offices… functioning in the body of Christ.”
Spiritual disciplines — Including deliverance, fasting, and the laying on of hands.
Prophecy — “Prophecy would no longer be restricted to general words of exhortation, but would include personal detailed revelations for guidance and instruction.”
Recovery of true worship — “The belief that God’s manifested presence is dependent upon a certain order of worship involving singing in tongues, clapping, shouting, singing prophecies, and a new order of praise dancing.”
Immortalization of the saints — “The belief that only those believers moving in the truth of the Latter Rain restoration, not necessarily all in the church, will attain an immortal state before Christ returns.”
Unity of the faith — “The doctrine that the church will attain unity of the faith before Christ returns.”
cont.....
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Five Fold Ministry cont...


Adherents of fivefold ministry say the church will better fulfill its mission and hasten the second coming of Jesus if it will accept the five offices of church government, as mentioned in the apostle Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (Eph. 4:11-13): evangelists, pastors, teachers, apostles, and prophets.

Virtually no Christian has any argument with the continuing importance of evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Yet advocates of fivefold ministry and their critics disagree on whether the offices of apostles and prophets continued beyond the early church. Roman Catholic and Anglican bishops have long believed in “apostolic succession,” the concept that they can trace their ordination lineage back to Jesus’ apostles. Critics of fivefold ministry are concerned that the movement makes claims for present-day apostles that go beyond the assertions of apostolic succession.


Hank Hanegraaff, president of the Christian Research Institute, expressed concern in a CRI Perspective radio spot: “If by ‘apostles’ and ‘prophets’ one means Christian leaders of the same kind as the twelve apostles or the apostle Paul, they are clearly mistaken. There are no church leaders today whose authority cannot be questioned, or through whom new doctrinal revelations are given to the church, or whose teachings must be accepted by all Christians.”

Some advocates of fivefold ministry, such as Pastor David Cannistraci of Evangel Christian Fellowship in San Jose, California, agree that apostles in the 1990s cannot claim the same mantle of authority as Jesus’ apostles.

“It is evident that the twelve apostles hold a unique and authoritative position in the Kingdom,” Cannistraci writes in his book Apostles and the Emerging Apostolic Movement (Renew Books, 1996). “The confusion between the twelve apostles (who are unique and whose function is complete) and the other apostles in the New Testament (whose function is assumed by some to be complete, but is not) has fueled the error of believing that the office has ceased.”

The core issue in the debate is whether apostles and prophets continue in any form beyond the early church.

One side — sometimes called “cessationists” — asserts that apostles and prophets laid the foundation of the Christian faith (Eph. 2:20) and that the foundation need never be rebuilt.

cont.......
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Five Fold ministry cont...

Moriarty critiques fivefold ministry from this position in The New Charismatics, where he writes:

Unlike modern miracle workers, the apostles never dishonored the Lord by failing to perform a miracle in Jesus’ name. Whomever they prayed for to get healed received their healing. There were no failings. Through these mighty works God was glorified and Christ’s message was validated. The New Testament has been confirmed and the foundation has been laid. Therefore, modern apostles with special powers are no longer needed. We do not need new apostles to lay new foundations in the twentieth-century church any more than we need another incarnation of Christ to establish a new cornerstone.

In contrast, Cannistraci states:

The Bible teaches that [apostles] will function perennially. This is, of course, the most compelling argument for validating a present-day apostolic function. Paul states that apostles (as well as prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) will continue to perform in the plan of God until “we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13). That word “until” is important. Clearly the Church has not yet arrived at that place of perfection and maturity. The apostle must remain an enduring function, office and call as an essential part of the Body of Christ until that objective is accomplished.

Critics of fivefold ministry raise concerns about vesting too much authority in modern-day apostles. “The pattern of organizational authority outlined in the New Testament is oversight by a plurality of elders,” Moriarty writes. “A consistent example of ‘elder rule’ existed among the churches established by the apostles. Nowhere in Scripture do we find a local assembly ruled by a fivefold ministry, apostles, or prophets, or by one pastor. At both the beginning and the end of Paul’s ministry, he appointed a plurality of elders to care for the churches he planted.”

C. Peter Wagner endorses the concept of contemporary apostles in Cannistraci’s book, Churchquake! (Regal Books, 1999). As Wagner describes the role of apostle, it could apply just as much to Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel as to Bill Hamon, the bishop, president, and founder of Christian International in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida.

cont.....
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Five fold Ministry cont....

“A consistent theme among new apostolic leaders is that they are not there to control,” Wagner writes in Churchquake! “Some live up to this ideal better than others. Chuck Smith is a role model for how it can be done well. The other apostles in the Calvary Chapel movement, namely, the megachurch pastors, have liberty that some networks would not allow. These liberties include implementing their own foreign missions programs, educating their own pastors and planting daughter churches that do not necessarily affiliate with the Calvary Chapel movement.”

Thus Says the Lord? If the office of apostle raises questions about how to understand Ephesians and how much authority is appropriate in one leader, the office of prophet invites even more difficult questions. Must contemporary prophets be as perfectly accurate as Isaiah, Jeremiah, or John the Baptist, who would have been stoned to death under the Law if their prophecies were false? (Deut. 18:20–22).

How easy is it to equate random thoughts with the word of the Lord? Is supernatural insight necessary to know that Christians watch too much TV or watch morally dubious videos? How can the church test prophets if their words are not bound by specifics such as dates or predicting literal events?

The National School of Prophets. Cindy Jacobs of Generals of Intercession in Colorado Springs dominates much of the service documented by the two tapes from January 29. Jacobs paints on a broad canvas — from Salt Lake City to Las Vegas to New Orleans to Washington, D.C.

cont to article for THE USUAL SUSPECTS................

Fivefold Ministry Makes a Comeback
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Networking for an Army

Networking the Church: Part 3

“[Rick] Warren plans to add two additional 40-days programs: The third will be ’40 Days of Vision’ focusing on missional structural renewal.”


“I can't tell you the number of times I've heard or read that the church is to be a hospital. I used to believe this myself. I mean how many times have we spoken the phrases 'Bind up the broken hearted' and 'comfort the afflicted,' etc? We have a very serious self-image problem, my friends. The church was never meant to be a hospital.

“. . . Wouldn't it be more appropriate for the church to be considered an army? Do you understand? We are to rule and reign with Christ, to war and gain victory in Christ, to take ground from the enemy and occupy until Jesus returns. Yes, we must have hospital units in our army. Of course we are to bind up the broken hearted and comfort the afflicted; but this is not to be the main focus of our mission and not our main objective!

“. . . For centuries church government has been out of order. . . [E]ach of the five-fold ministers has a different mind-set. They see things quite differently from one another. . .

“t was not the Lord's intention for His church (the larger body of believers within any given region) to be led by pastors. The Scripture clearly states that the apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church (Eph.2:20). They have a different (not better or worse) God-given mindset to see the larger picture. The apostles lead the corporate church to reclaim the ground the enemy has stolen. They, along with the prophets, hear from God and formulate strategic plans. The apostle is gifted to implement these strategies and advance the kingdom… and this will ultimately transform their region.”

-- Peter Whitehouse, “The Church is NOT a Hospital,” Weekly Journal, 2/22/07


“There is no doubt that God is bringing about these changes [the New Apostolic Reformation, ed.] to the Church to restructure its government and to reveal new strategies. In order to accomplish His objective of establishing the kingdom of heaven here on earth, God is restoring all the truths that have been lost. Those who refuse to accept this movement of the Spirit, with His new and marvelous strategies, in the end will cease to produce fruit and will disappear.

“It is necessary for the Church to continue in this process of change and restoration so that it can rise up and accomplish its mission of revolutionizing the world.”
-- Hector Torres, The Restoration of the Apostles and Prophets (Thomas Nelson, 2001), p. 15.

The Church is being restructured into a networking hierarchy. It represents a substantial paradigm shift in church governance – but for what purpose? Dominionism!

From the bottom up, the cellular structure looks like small groups, a pleasant and benign-sounding concept marketed to millions of believers who have experienced alienation in modern society and loneliness in mega-churches. From the top-down, the configuration is apostolic. The church is to be governed by a new elite – self-proclaimed, self-anointed apostles and prophets who claim to have extraordinary spiritual powers that equip them for leadership in the Church. When this happens, the Church will be formed into a “Joel’s Army” which will wield power and dominion on Earth.

This new church structure is based on a revolutionary interpretation of the “five-fold ministries” (Ephesians 2:20-21; 4:11-13) based upon the esoteric doctrines of the Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God cult. In this evolutionary twist, the Church (as an organic whole) needs to come into full "maturity" by restructuring itself into networking cells that are governed by apostles and prophets. It is claimed that this will "activate" the Church to become fully operational as a body on Earth, unified to fulfill its manifest destiny (fulfill the Great Commission) -- a global army that heralds the return of “Christ.”

The apostolic networking structure, founded upon the apostles and prophets, has been illustrated like this:

THE CHURCH

EVANGELISTS PASTORS TEACHERS

APOSTLES PROPHETS

JESUS CHRIST

This restructuring agenda has not been hidden! It has been boldly published for the past ten years by C. Peter Wagner and his New Apostolic Reformation cohorts, who have built apostolic networks vertically and horizontally for the purpose of dominionism. (See, for example, Wagner’s International Coalition of Apostles.)

Wagner is not a fringe charismatic cult leader. Rather, he has formidable credentials as a respected evangelical church growth/mission leader. He is credited with linking the signs and wonders charismatic movement (via John Wimber of Vineyard, whom he raised from obscurity and mentored) with the Latter Rain cult in the early 1990s. This fusion mainstreamed the obscure and esoteric “Joel’s Army” doctrines into neoevangelicalism, changing the fundamental nature of mission agendas worldwide. The fact that C. Peter Wagner also mentored Rick Warren gives new relevance to the quote at the top of this post.

What is the role of the prophets and apostles in governing the networking church? How will they rule and govern, and shift the church into an army?

There are a vast multitude of sources we could quote from, but for the sake of brevity today’s post quotes from Hector Torres’ 2001 book, The Restoration of the Apostles and Prophets. This book, published by Thomas Nelson, includes an Introduction by C. Peter Wagner, in which he expresses the concern that “some parts of this book will be controversial” (p. xviii). It is quite possible that Wagner's concern was based on the fact that the book more openly acknowledges the hideous nature of the apostolic/prophetic top-down hierarchy, by characterizing obedience to these new masters as necessary to accomplish the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Look again at the diagram above. Now tip the diagram upside down to get the real picture. This illustrates what is being called the Second Reformation (Rick Warren) or New Apostolic Reformation (C. Peter Wagner). It will look like this:

JESUS CHRIST

APOSTLES PROPHETS

EVANGELISTS PASTORS TEACHERS

THE CHURCH

It is readily apparent that this networking cells/systems church model reverses the profound effects of the First Reformation which taught the individual priesthood of all believers. This restructuring creates a new ecclesiastical hierarchy. No longer can individual believers directly access Jesus Christ. They must go through a designated apostle or prophet. But more on that topic in subsequent posts, Lord willing. . . .​

The Truth:

“But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.” (Ephesians 2:13)


 
Last edited:
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
i don't hate you.
i feel sorry for you though.
i know that if you are saved, you're in for a little CO-rrection....scourgin'
oops!
see ya.
Thats funny because i feel sorry for you, and pray you repent before you die and awake to the worse surprise anyone could ever imagine