Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
All men include kings and all that are in authority. Question, are all kings and all that are in authority saved? All men in verse 1 is the same term, all men, that is used in verse 4.

To keep it all in context, Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to instruct some of the members that they teach no other doctrine.(1 Tim 1:3)

Timothy also instructed them to pray for all of the men that have authority over them to make the right decisions, that the church may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

The "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4 is referencing those men in the church that are teaching another doctrine, that this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; to have all of them to be saved (delivered here in time) from their ignorance of the gospel, and come unto a knowledge of the truth.

According to Strong's concordance, saved=delivered
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
To keep it all in context, Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to instruct some of the members that they teach no other doctrine.(1 Tim 1:3)

Timothy also instructed them to pray for all of the men that have authority over them to make the right decisions, that the church may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

The "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4 is referencing those men in the church that are teaching another doctrine, that this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; to have all of them to be saved (delivered here in time) from their ignorance of the gospel, and come unto a knowledge of the truth.

According to Strong's concordance, saved=delivered
For you, the term "all men" is fluid to fit your man made theology. You have to do that or your theology fails.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
Actually you are the one who is OBSESSED with Calvin's false theology. Just count the number of posts you have made trying to defend a false gospel instead of repenting and getting back to the truth. This is truly an obsession.
Not sure about calvin, but the doctrines he showed forth from scripture, TULIP they are Gospel Truths, so when you reject those truths, you not rejecting the man calvin, but the Gospel Truths he showed from scripture.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
Not sure about calvin, but the doctrines he showed forth from scripture, TULIP they are Gospel Truths, so when you reject those truths, you not rejecting the man calvin, but the Gospel Truths he showed from scripture.
They are a human interpretation of a Biblical Truth, that is true to the context its found at, not when it's removed and placed into a new category.

So No, TULIP, is nowhere close to being Gospel.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
265
116
43
70
Election is truth, its just not unconditional. That election is seen in the Holy Spirit's working with the faithful to minister the gospel to the world. When a member of the body of Christ who is sharing the gospel via the word of God to the lost; and that lost person who hears is convicted of sins and called to the Lord by the Holy Spirit, who loves that lost one as he does Jesus. If someone responds to the Holy Spirit's moving with a godly sorrow, believing the word of the Lord being shared by the believer ministering; and repents, which is a choice, then Jesus gives that one a mustard seed of faith and the Holy Spirit's indwells making us one Spirit with the Lord.

A reason election is not unconditional, is that the Lord want's us to want him. Another reason is that the Lord is not a respecter of persons. Forced election upon a few and no hope for the others is not loving the others, yet scripture's first memory verse for many of us is; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth will not perish, but have everlasting life." This doctrine of forced election for the few is not love for the many, is it? "God is not slack, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us ward, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance." Why would the Lord love a person as he loves Jesus, who no matter if that person believes and repents with a godly sorrow or not; he will be REJECTED HAVING ONLY BEING CALLED BUT NOT CHOSEN? Seems like the Lord is teasing him with a call, but forced rejection awaited all along; if the other side of the coin were unconditional election. And that was decided before they were born.

We're taught in scripture that the Lord is not a respecter of persons while clearly, he is; if unconditional election were true. We're taught that the Lord loves the whole world, but what kind of love forces the loved one into the eternal lake of fire for no reason? Is that an of example of how the Lord will love us once we're in heaven? Perhaps it is a good thing that blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in heaven, if we have to deal with a God who forces his loved ones into eternal hellfire without cause. Imagine what he'll do with us, if that's how he treats his loved ones.

Thankfully, agape, love doesn't prefer some over others, but rather is kind, gentle, longsuffering, and always wants the best for everyone. Even the Lord's chastening isn't to punish us, but rather to correct us in love so that we might produce fruit unto righteousness. The Lord is not only a God of love, but he is also a God of joy, who desires for us to live with joy unspeakable and full of glory, together forever! The Lord is an infinite being, he is unable to have to many people to indwell! Love seeketh after its own. It is the Lord's love that leads us to minister the gospel to whosoever will.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
265
116
43
70
Rom 8: 29 KJV "For whom he did foreknew, he did also predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren."
This tells us that a group are predestinated to be made into Christ's image. It doesn't say when. I suspect that it will not be until quite some time after we're in New Jerusalem. We'll have the scriptures with us and as most of the new testament deals with sin. so considering how some Christians behave, it'll take a while even there.

Rom 8:30 KJV "Moreover whom he did predestinated, them also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he also justified, them he also glorified."
And yet, "many are called, but few are chosen."
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
Faith in Christ was the promise.

I suspect that you may have completely misunderstood chapter nine of Romans.

Have a look at the opening paragraph and the closing paragraph of chapter 9.

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen. (Romans 9:1-2)
.
.
.
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.(Romans 9:30-31)

Everything Paul wrote in between the first paragraph and the last paragraph. Is actually explaining why Israel failed.

Paul is not talking about sovereign election, Paul is explaining why the Jews failed to achieve election.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
Election is truth, its just not unconditional. That election is seen in the Holy Spirit's working with the faithful to minister the gospel to the world. When a member of the body of Christ who is sharing the gospel via the word of God to the lost; and that lost person who hears is convicted of sins and called to the Lord by the Holy Spirit, who loves that lost one as he does Jesus. If someone responds to the Holy Spirit's moving with a godly sorrow, believing the word of the Lord being shared by the believer ministering; and repents, which is a choice, then Jesus gives that one a mustard seed of faith and the Holy Spirit's indwells making us one Spirit with the Lord.

A reason election is not unconditional, is that the Lord want's us to want him. Another reason is that the Lord is not a respecter of persons. Forced election upon a few and no hope for the others is not loving the others, yet scripture's first memory verse for many of us is; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth will not perish, but have everlasting life." This doctrine of forced election for the few is not love for the many, is it? "God is not slack, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us ward, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance." Why would the Lord love a person as he loves Jesus, who no matter if that person believes and repents with a godly sorrow or not; he will be REJECTED HAVING ONLY BEING CALLED BUT NOT CHOSEN? Seems like the Lord is teasing him with a call, but forced rejection awaited all along; if the other side of the coin were unconditional election. And that was decided before they were born.

We're taught in scripture that the Lord is not a respecter of persons while clearly, he is; if unconditional election were true. We're taught that the Lord loves the whole world, but what kind of love forces the loved one into the eternal lake of fire for no reason? Is that an of example of how the Lord will love us once we're in heaven? Perhaps it is a good thing that blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in heaven, if we have to deal with a God who forces his loved ones into eternal hellfire without cause. Imagine what he'll do with us, if that's how he treats his loved ones.

Thankfully, agape, love doesn't prefer some over others, but rather is kind, gentle, longsuffering, and always wants the best for everyone. Even the Lord's chastening isn't to punish us, but rather to correct us in love so that we might produce fruit unto righteousness. The Lord is not only a God of love, but he is also a God of joy, who desires for us to live with joy unspeakable and full of glory, together forever! The Lord is an infinite being, he is unable to have to many people to indwell! Love seeketh after its own. It is the Lord's love that leads us to minister the gospel to whosoever will.
It's not biblical election if it is not unconditional because it is of grace. In fact, salvation is not of grace if it is not by unconditional election to Salvation.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
Faith in Christ was the promise.

I suspect that you may have completely misunderstood chapter nine of Romans.

Have a look at the opening paragraph and the closing paragraph of chapter 9.

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen. (Romans 9:1-2)
.
.
.
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.(Romans 9:30-31)

Everything Paul wrote in between the first paragraph and the last paragraph. Is actually explaining why Israel failed.

Paul is not talking about sovereign election, Paul is explaining why the Jews failed to achieve election.
Yes Paul is speaking of Sovereign election but unfortunately you are blind to it. May God be pleased to give you understanding.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
Yes Paul is speaking of Sovereign election but unfortunately you are blind to it. May God be pleased to give you understanding.
So the following verse is meaningless to you.

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. (Romans 9:30-31)

Paul is explaining why Israel failed. Paul is not talking about individual election.

I cannot comprehend how anyone someone can read Chapter nine, and miss Paul's simple argument?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
So the following verse is meaningless to you.

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. (Romans 9:30-31)

Paul is explaining why Israel failed. Paul is not talking about individual election.

I cannot comprehend how anyone someone can read Chapter nine, and miss Paul's simple argument?
No they're not meaningless. Do they say Paul is not speaking about Sovereign Electing Grace? The Election received Salvation as promised and the rest are blinded Rom 11:5-7. Only the election will seek righteousness by faith.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
No they're not meaningless. Do they say Paul is not speaking about Sovereign Electing Grace? The Election received Salvation as promised and the rest are blinded Rom 11:5-7. Only the election will seek righteousness by faith.
Paul refers constantly to two groups of people in the letter to the Romans, the Gentiles and Israel.

How is it possible that Israel failed to accept their own messiah? That was the impossible question that Paul would have to answer.
That is exactly the question that Paul is explaining.

There is no mention of Pharoah's salvation or damnation. Pharoah is hardened for a reason, a purpose.

The same applies to Jacob and Esau. The older will serve the younger and that is for a specific purpose.

To infer that individual sovereign election is what Paul is saying in chapter nine. Is missing the mark entirely, Paul is not talking about individual election.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
No they're not meaningless. Do they say Paul is not speaking about Sovereign Electing Grace? The Election received Salvation as promised and the rest are blinded Rom 11:5-7. Only the election will seek righteousness by faith.
You made a number of mistakes in this post.

The rest are not blinded in the way that you think they are.

Paul is talking about the Jews in Ch 11, not the Gentiles.

The Jews stumbled over Jesus but does that mean they fell, are they not able to believe in Jesus?

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Certainly not.

Read Ch 11 again.

We don't seek righteousness, we receive it as a free gift, the very righteousness of Christ. (Romans 5:17)

We are saved by grace through faith... (Ephesians 2:8)

You have a lot of work to do in Christianity 101.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
Not sure about calvin, but the doctrines he showed forth from scripture, TULIP they are Gospel Truths, so when you reject those truths, you not rejecting the man calvin, but the Gospel Truths he showed from scripture.
Gospel truths?

There is a discernable difference between the gospel of Jesus Christ. And some fellow's opinion of the mechanics of how God saves someone.

No one understands how God's grace is administered to mankind. Paul referred to it as a mystery in Romans 11.

Nor should anyone care about how God saves someone, we have been told what we should be doing during our Christian life.

Praying, loving others, polite, kind hearted, putting others first, rejoicing.

Sovereign election vs freewill, you have got to be kidding.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
You made a number of mistakes in this post.

The rest are not blinded in the way that you think they are.

Paul is talking about the Jews in Ch 11, not the Gentiles.

The Jews stumbled over Jesus but does that mean they fell, are they not able to believe in Jesus?

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Certainly not.

Read Ch 11 again.

We don't seek righteousness, we receive it as a free gift, the very righteousness of Christ. (Romans 5:17)

We are saved by grace through faith... (Ephesians 2:8)

You have a lot of work to do in Christianity 101.
Everybody whether jew or gentile, are in this world by Divine Purpose either a elect vessel of mercy who will obtain Salvation or a elect vessel of wrath who shall obtain everlastion destruction and wrath.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
Gospel truths?

There is a discernable difference between the gospel of Jesus Christ. And some fellow's opinion of the mechanics of how God saves someone.

No one understands how God's grace is administered to mankind. Paul referred to it as a mystery in Romans 11.

Nor should anyone care about how God saves someone, we have been told what we should be doing during our Christian life.

Praying, loving others, polite, kind hearted, putting others first, rejoicing.

Sovereign election vs freewill, you have got to be kidding.
Yes Gospel Truths, when you reject and scoff Total depravity of man as set forth in scripture, and the other tenants of TULIP as set forth in scripture, you reject Truths of the Gospel of Grace !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
Inquisitor said

Nor should anyone care about how God saves someone
Thats a very foolish statement, for thats exactly what the Gospel of Gods Grace is all about, How God saves His People in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
For you, the term "all men" is fluid to fit your man made theology. You have to do that or your theology fails.

To have that thought, you are misinterpreting the scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the gospel that Jesus taught.