The Heresy of Perfectionism
- Thread starter zone
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A
But Why? Why? Why? do you argue that. Based on Gods ability we could ask a 1000 whys.
Yes it is dishonest to try to trap or outwit someone based on the omnipotance of God
alone and leave out His omniscience and will. Answer yourself. The bible wont allow
your doctrine. Not because of His ability, but because of His will and good pleasure.
And its written for us His Word.
Yes it is dishonest to try to trap or outwit someone based on the omnipotance of God
alone and leave out His omniscience and will. Answer yourself. The bible wont allow
your doctrine. Not because of His ability, but because of His will and good pleasure.
And its written for us His Word.
A
Ill give you credit, much credit, that you stand for what is written, almost perfectly
and ill commend you for that. But one thing you dont know is your own heart, neither
do I . Nor do we see the depths of our sinfulness, and ignorance. As we grow, He reveals more, we overcome.
He reveals more. To free us from our idols, love of worldy things and such, we do a whitewash
in our obedience to Him. He goes where we cant even see. And it would overwhelm us to show
us all of our sin at once. As this happens, more light and understanding from scripture enlightens
us. The progress comes in a process and a relationship develops and deepens.
Your doctrine seems to just leave out His purposes in the way this is done, you just want to
streamline it all to a riddence of sin, and not see the need and beauty of His will and ways
that this is done.
The False Doctrine of Perfectionism
Introductory Thoughts
· The problem of balance in this doctrinal area
· Extreme Views
Ø First Extreme View: No holiness, or, “Holiness, what is that?” Many in the churches believe that a consistent Christian lifestyle is optional. They believe in conduct-neutral Christianity.
Ø Second extreme view—Perfection (much rarer today)
· The True Doctrine—God is Light è 1 John 1:5
· The First False Doctrine we looked at—Antinomianism è1:6-7. Antinomianism is against all law, is against any ethical requirement for the Christian. It teaches that the evidence of a person’s life is irrelevant.
· The True Alternative Doctrine—1:7
· Now we deal with the false doctrine of perfectionism.
1. First Form of Perfectionism—claiming to have no tendency to sin èJohn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
a. The Language
(1) In the Greek, this is what is called a Subjunctive sentence, a third class condition—it is an “if, then” statement.
(2) “If we up and say…”, this is the Greek aorist tense—if we have up and said at any time...
(3) “that we do not have sin” (present tense).
(4) What he is saying is: “If we up and say that we live continually in such a way that we have no principle of sin in us....”
(5) Then...We are leading ourselves astray, and The Truth is not in us
b. Extreme views in this area historically
(1) Gnostics—the first cult
(a)Some denied that believers had any principle if sin, therefore, no matter what they did, it could not be considered sin—they actually used this kind of perfectionism as an excuse to sin!
(b) Others taught that a spiritual believer had no sin in their life, so they could live to perfection
(2) Other perfectionists since then have taught that by an act of sanctifying grace, the tendency to sin can be taken away from us in this life.
(3) In contrast to the perfectionist view is the The Carnal Christian Theory, which says that one can live totally in sin, fully surrendered to it, and still be considered a Christian
(4) All of these views are heresy—they are out of balance.
c. The balanced Biblical view is: when we become Christians......
(1) We receive a new nature—2 Cor 5:17
(2) The born again Christian will not practice sin as a style of life.
1 John 2:29 "If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him."
1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
(3) The old man can be reckoned as dead, Sin no longer has the power to dominate us—Rom 6:1-15. Therefore, we should be growing in grace—2 Pet 3:18, progressing in holiness.
(4) This progression in holiness is not optional, it is the normal Christian life. To say that a progression in holiness is OPTIONAL is to state a heresy.
(5) Having said that, because we are still in flesh, we still must struggle against sin, even as we grow in Grace and holiness.
(a)By flesh, we don’t mean the body only, but the mind and soul, our total humanness.
(b) Systematic theologians like to draw very distinct lines on this question, but the Bible does not tell us where our humanity begins and ends and where the new man is.
(c) Our mind and body together remember the pleasures and ways of sin, and this must be put to death daily.
(d) As long as we live with our humanness (which is as long as we are alive) we are in danger of sinning, and must constantly be on our guard to fight against it, and fight against it we must and will
d. But to say that we have no sin, that we are beyond sin, is a heresy
è If a person believes in this kind of perfectionism, this is self deception èThis amounts to NO TRUTH
* (skip verse 9 monentarily, we will come back to it)
2. The Second form of perfectionism—claiming to be sinless in practice è 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
a. Language
(1) “If”—again, a third class condition sentence
(2) We say—aorist—if we at any time have said
(3) We have not sinned—perfect tense—have not sinned throughout the past.
(4) “...we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us....” This is all in the present tense—if we say that we have not been sinners in practice, we are continually making Him a liar and His word is continually not in us.
b. Perfectionists say that a second work of Grace can “fully sanctify” a person so that they are totally above sin, and they will claim that they live above sin. This is a false doctrine.
(1) Sinless perfection is our goal—but we will never reach that level of holiness in this life
(2) To claim perfection in our lives makes God a liar! Rom 3:9-12, 23, Eph 2:1-3
3. The Remedy for both heresies in chapter 1—the balanced Christian life—1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
a. Language—
(1) Again, a subjunctive sentence, conditional
(2) “...If we confess...” is present tense—if we go on confessing...
(a) The word for confess, ¿ìïëïã§ìåí , means to agree totally with, and to identify with.
(b) When we truly confess, we are saying something about us, and we are saying something about Him.
(c)Rom 10:9-10—when we confess Christ, we confess His Lordship
(d) When we confess that He is our Savior, we are confessing that we need a Savior, that we are sinners.
(e) And this is in the present tense! Our confession is perpetual and constant—we always say to our Father, “God be merciful to me a sinner.”
(3) So, the remedy for the first type of perfectionism-- perpetual repentance. If we are continually confessing to Him, we will not get the idea that we are perfect!
b. “...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...”
(1) Language—“...is...” è present tense—continual. Jesus is always faithful and always just.
(2) If we confess Him and His Lordship in our lives èHe is faithful and just to forgive us...What does that mean?
(a) He is faithful
(b) He is just—because the price of redemption has been paid, and because of the propitiation through faith in His blood, God is just and righteous to forgive us—See Romans 3:25-31
(c)To forgive—aorist—we confess continually, the the forgiveness of sins is something that takes place once. When He is our Father, the forgiveness of sins has happened, and God will no longer impute sin to our account—Rom 4:6-8. The sins that a believer commits are sins, but the legal status of the believer is that sins are now a family matter between Father and Son—you can lose fellowship, but never relationship.
(d) “...And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...”—“...cleanse...” is aorist, so this is again talking about the great transaction that occured at our salvation.
(e) So, here is a strange thing:
(i) Our confession is continual
(ii) Our forgiveness from sin is granted once.
(iii) But back in 1:7, the cleansing was continual—the point is that we are cleansed once from the guilt of sin, then we are cleansed continually from the pollution of sin in our lives, and one day we will be cleansed from the very presence of sin.
Striking the Balance
1 John 1:8-10
Introductory Thoughts
· The problem of balance in this doctrinal area
· Extreme Views
Ø First Extreme View: No holiness, or, “Holiness, what is that?” Many in the churches believe that a consistent Christian lifestyle is optional. They believe in conduct-neutral Christianity.
Ø Second extreme view—Perfection (much rarer today)
· The True Doctrine—God is Light è 1 John 1:5
· The First False Doctrine we looked at—Antinomianism è1:6-7. Antinomianism is against all law, is against any ethical requirement for the Christian. It teaches that the evidence of a person’s life is irrelevant.
· The True Alternative Doctrine—1:7
· Now we deal with the false doctrine of perfectionism.
1. First Form of Perfectionism—claiming to have no tendency to sin èJohn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
a. The Language
(1) In the Greek, this is what is called a Subjunctive sentence, a third class condition—it is an “if, then” statement.
(2) “If we up and say…”, this is the Greek aorist tense—if we have up and said at any time...
(3) “that we do not have sin” (present tense).
(4) What he is saying is: “If we up and say that we live continually in such a way that we have no principle of sin in us....”
(5) Then...We are leading ourselves astray, and The Truth is not in us
b. Extreme views in this area historically
(1) Gnostics—the first cult
(a)Some denied that believers had any principle if sin, therefore, no matter what they did, it could not be considered sin—they actually used this kind of perfectionism as an excuse to sin!
(b) Others taught that a spiritual believer had no sin in their life, so they could live to perfection
(2) Other perfectionists since then have taught that by an act of sanctifying grace, the tendency to sin can be taken away from us in this life.
(3) In contrast to the perfectionist view is the The Carnal Christian Theory, which says that one can live totally in sin, fully surrendered to it, and still be considered a Christian
(4) All of these views are heresy—they are out of balance.
c. The balanced Biblical view is: when we become Christians......
(1) We receive a new nature—2 Cor 5:17
(2) The born again Christian will not practice sin as a style of life.
1 John 2:29 "If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him."
1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
(3) The old man can be reckoned as dead, Sin no longer has the power to dominate us—Rom 6:1-15. Therefore, we should be growing in grace—2 Pet 3:18, progressing in holiness.
(4) This progression in holiness is not optional, it is the normal Christian life. To say that a progression in holiness is OPTIONAL is to state a heresy.
(5) Having said that, because we are still in flesh, we still must struggle against sin, even as we grow in Grace and holiness.
(a)By flesh, we don’t mean the body only, but the mind and soul, our total humanness.
(b) Systematic theologians like to draw very distinct lines on this question, but the Bible does not tell us where our humanity begins and ends and where the new man is.
(c) Our mind and body together remember the pleasures and ways of sin, and this must be put to death daily.
(d) As long as we live with our humanness (which is as long as we are alive) we are in danger of sinning, and must constantly be on our guard to fight against it, and fight against it we must and will
d. But to say that we have no sin, that we are beyond sin, is a heresy
è If a person believes in this kind of perfectionism, this is self deception èThis amounts to NO TRUTH
* (skip verse 9 monentarily, we will come back to it)
2. The Second form of perfectionism—claiming to be sinless in practice è 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
a. Language
(1) “If”—again, a third class condition sentence
(2) We say—aorist—if we at any time have said
(3) We have not sinned—perfect tense—have not sinned throughout the past.
(4) “...we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us....” This is all in the present tense—if we say that we have not been sinners in practice, we are continually making Him a liar and His word is continually not in us.
b. Perfectionists say that a second work of Grace can “fully sanctify” a person so that they are totally above sin, and they will claim that they live above sin. This is a false doctrine.
(1) Sinless perfection is our goal—but we will never reach that level of holiness in this life
(2) To claim perfection in our lives makes God a liar! Rom 3:9-12, 23, Eph 2:1-3
3. The Remedy for both heresies in chapter 1—the balanced Christian life—1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
a. Language—
(1) Again, a subjunctive sentence, conditional
(2) “...If we confess...” is present tense—if we go on confessing...
(a) The word for confess, ¿ìïëïã§ìåí , means to agree totally with, and to identify with.
(b) When we truly confess, we are saying something about us, and we are saying something about Him.
(c)Rom 10:9-10—when we confess Christ, we confess His Lordship
(d) When we confess that He is our Savior, we are confessing that we need a Savior, that we are sinners.
(e) And this is in the present tense! Our confession is perpetual and constant—we always say to our Father, “God be merciful to me a sinner.”
(3) So, the remedy for the first type of perfectionism-- perpetual repentance. If we are continually confessing to Him, we will not get the idea that we are perfect!
b. “...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...”
(1) Language—“...is...” è present tense—continual. Jesus is always faithful and always just.
(2) If we confess Him and His Lordship in our lives èHe is faithful and just to forgive us...What does that mean?
(a) He is faithful
(b) He is just—because the price of redemption has been paid, and because of the propitiation through faith in His blood, God is just and righteous to forgive us—See Romans 3:25-31
(c)To forgive—aorist—we confess continually, the the forgiveness of sins is something that takes place once. When He is our Father, the forgiveness of sins has happened, and God will no longer impute sin to our account—Rom 4:6-8. The sins that a believer commits are sins, but the legal status of the believer is that sins are now a family matter between Father and Son—you can lose fellowship, but never relationship.
(d) “...And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...”—“...cleanse...” is aorist, so this is again talking about the great transaction that occured at our salvation.
(e) So, here is a strange thing:
(i) Our confession is continual
(ii) Our forgiveness from sin is granted once.
(iii) But back in 1:7, the cleansing was continual—the point is that we are cleansed once from the guilt of sin, then we are cleansed continually from the pollution of sin in our lives, and one day we will be cleansed from the very presence of sin.
Striking the Balance
http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=491652
The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind.
Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.
Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions.
To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law.
The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.
To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law.
We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance.
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.
The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind.
Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.
Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions.
To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law.
The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.
To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law.
We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance.
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.
E
The problem of perfectionism comes from a misunderstanding of the law. Paul had to fight this when he sent timothy to Ephesus because some people who were leaders of the church were distorting truth and trying to revert back to Law.
Paul says: 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
In other words. They not only do not understand what it is they are teaching. But the things they are positive is true (things they affirm) are in error Also.
This comes from a misunderstanding. Jesus had to deal with this with the jews. They had watered down God's law so much they thought they were "super righteous" People. and did not need Gods sent savior. They went about boasting how they did not murder, Commit adultry, or any of the "evil things" the evil gentiles did. Or those "sinners" whome quite frankly,. jesus hung around.
Yet what did Jesus say on the sermon on the mount?
You think your righteous because you have not commited murder? Well I tell ya, If you call your brother fool you are just as guilty as if you killed him.
You think your righteous because you have never cheated on your wife or husband/ Well I tell ya, If you even look at another man or woman in lust, you are as guilty as if you had slept with her.
You think your right before God because you love your neighbor. Love your enemy also. Turn the other cheek when someone hurts you.
Jesus raised the bar back up to what the law really said. He tore down the watered down version , and told it like it was, and showed them you think your righteous? There are non righteous.
Then he made another comment which is distorted and misinterpreted by many.
I did not come to remove the law, I came to fulfill the law.
The law says if you break it. you are guilty of the law, and owe God a price for doing so. That price is your life. Jesus fulfilled the law by giving his life in our place. So we could be set free of the condemnation which comes from the law.
the law has two purposes. to show us all we can not live up to Gods standard of making it to heaven on our own. because we have all failed. And to show us what it is God desires for us. What he thinks is good, and what will damage us and those around us.
People want to twist this and say here is what God did. He took your plate. He washed it all and made it clean. Then he hands your plate back. And says here, keep it clean your your going to hell.
When is reality what Jesus said is it is like you owe a man 1 billion dollars. It is impossible for you to pay him back. But he comes and pays your debt for you. And says I forgive you. Now who is going to leave that discussion and say, "I hate that guy, he is a rude person who only wants to take? No one! we are going to appreciate what he did for us, Love him praise him, learn to be just like him for what he did for us, because what he gave us cost hom so much.
the law brings about two possible senerios.
1. I hate God and become defeated because I can't live up to God's standard no matter how hard I try.
2. An unhealthy, sinful, boastfullness about how Good I am, you know the type. I don't drink, I don't smoke and I don't cuss. So I have made it!
Paul says: 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
In other words. They not only do not understand what it is they are teaching. But the things they are positive is true (things they affirm) are in error Also.
This comes from a misunderstanding. Jesus had to deal with this with the jews. They had watered down God's law so much they thought they were "super righteous" People. and did not need Gods sent savior. They went about boasting how they did not murder, Commit adultry, or any of the "evil things" the evil gentiles did. Or those "sinners" whome quite frankly,. jesus hung around.
Yet what did Jesus say on the sermon on the mount?
You think your righteous because you have not commited murder? Well I tell ya, If you call your brother fool you are just as guilty as if you killed him.
You think your righteous because you have never cheated on your wife or husband/ Well I tell ya, If you even look at another man or woman in lust, you are as guilty as if you had slept with her.
You think your right before God because you love your neighbor. Love your enemy also. Turn the other cheek when someone hurts you.
Jesus raised the bar back up to what the law really said. He tore down the watered down version , and told it like it was, and showed them you think your righteous? There are non righteous.
Then he made another comment which is distorted and misinterpreted by many.
I did not come to remove the law, I came to fulfill the law.
The law says if you break it. you are guilty of the law, and owe God a price for doing so. That price is your life. Jesus fulfilled the law by giving his life in our place. So we could be set free of the condemnation which comes from the law.
the law has two purposes. to show us all we can not live up to Gods standard of making it to heaven on our own. because we have all failed. And to show us what it is God desires for us. What he thinks is good, and what will damage us and those around us.
People want to twist this and say here is what God did. He took your plate. He washed it all and made it clean. Then he hands your plate back. And says here, keep it clean your your going to hell.
When is reality what Jesus said is it is like you owe a man 1 billion dollars. It is impossible for you to pay him back. But he comes and pays your debt for you. And says I forgive you. Now who is going to leave that discussion and say, "I hate that guy, he is a rude person who only wants to take? No one! we are going to appreciate what he did for us, Love him praise him, learn to be just like him for what he did for us, because what he gave us cost hom so much.
the law brings about two possible senerios.
1. I hate God and become defeated because I can't live up to God's standard no matter how hard I try.
2. An unhealthy, sinful, boastfullness about how Good I am, you know the type. I don't drink, I don't smoke and I don't cuss. So I have made it!
well said EG.
Sproul and Ryle are just men of God two posted here who point out, as Spurgeon and all them did and do, and as Fester posted somewhere:
the closer we draw to The Lord, the longer we are Christians, the more aware we are of what sin really is, and the more grateful and in awe we are of Christ Our Saviour.
~
as you said, the very same insanity as the modern Perfectionists (i think immensley influenced by Finney and lesser Wesley) manifested in the Pharisees.
the difference now is this Second baptism thing: that's where they think they have there impartation of righteousnes and pure holiness. FEELINGS
what part of Eph 2 is so hard to get?
oh well
love ya
(Dan 9 dun deal)
sproul:
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin.
Sproul and Ryle are just men of God two posted here who point out, as Spurgeon and all them did and do, and as Fester posted somewhere:
the closer we draw to The Lord, the longer we are Christians, the more aware we are of what sin really is, and the more grateful and in awe we are of Christ Our Saviour.
~
as you said, the very same insanity as the modern Perfectionists (i think immensley influenced by Finney and lesser Wesley) manifested in the Pharisees.
the difference now is this Second baptism thing: that's where they think they have there impartation of righteousnes and pure holiness. FEELINGS
what part of Eph 2 is so hard to get?
oh well
love ya
(Dan 9 dun deal
)sproul:
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin.
A
well said EG.
Sproul and Ryle are just men of God two posted here who point out, as Spurgeon and all them did and do, and as Fester posted somewhere:
the closer we draw to The Lord, the longer we are Christians, the more aware we are of what sin really is, and the more grateful and in awe we are of Christ Our Saviour.
~
as you said, the very same insanity as the modern Perfectionists (i think immensley influenced by Finney and lesser Wesley) manifested in the Pharisees.
the difference now is this Second baptism thing: that's where they think they have there impartation of righteousnes and pure holiness. FEELINGS
what part of Eph 2 is so hard to get?
oh well
love ya
(Dan 9 dun deal)
sproul:
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin.
Sproul and Ryle are just men of God two posted here who point out, as Spurgeon and all them did and do, and as Fester posted somewhere:
the closer we draw to The Lord, the longer we are Christians, the more aware we are of what sin really is, and the more grateful and in awe we are of Christ Our Saviour.
~
as you said, the very same insanity as the modern Perfectionists (i think immensley influenced by Finney and lesser Wesley) manifested in the Pharisees.
the difference now is this Second baptism thing: that's where they think they have there impartation of righteousnes and pure holiness. FEELINGS
what part of Eph 2 is so hard to get?
oh well
love ya
(Dan 9 dun deal
)sproul:
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin.
end of their ministry, and how they viewed themselves. I listen to it once a year or more. will get link if requested.
E
well said EG.
Sproul and Ryle are just men of God two posted here who point out, as Spurgeon and all them did and do, and as Fester posted somewhere:
the closer we draw to The Lord, the longer we are Christians, the more aware we are of what sin really is, and the more grateful and in awe we are of Christ Our Saviour.
~
as you said, the very same insanity as the modern Perfectionists (i think immensley influenced by Finney and lesser Wesley) manifested in the Pharisees.
the difference now is this Second baptism thing: that's where they think they have there impartation of righteousnes and pure holiness. FEELINGS
what part of Eph 2 is so hard to get?
oh well
love ya
(Dan 9 dun deal)
sproul:
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin.
Sproul and Ryle are just men of God two posted here who point out, as Spurgeon and all them did and do, and as Fester posted somewhere:
the closer we draw to The Lord, the longer we are Christians, the more aware we are of what sin really is, and the more grateful and in awe we are of Christ Our Saviour.
~
as you said, the very same insanity as the modern Perfectionists (i think immensley influenced by Finney and lesser Wesley) manifested in the Pharisees.
the difference now is this Second baptism thing: that's where they think they have there impartation of righteousnes and pure holiness. FEELINGS
what part of Eph 2 is so hard to get?
oh well
love ya
(Dan 9 dun deal
)sproul:
We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin.
It is like a husband wife relp. The more you get to know your spouse. The more you know what makes her happy. And what grieves her. The same with god.
Interesting quote you give here, I wonder what John is trying to say?
The reason I ask this is because some who know the error of perfectionism often go to far to the other extreme and make the Grace of our Lord Jesus of no effect. Often they quote this very verse to uphold the Fact that we will not be able to keep the law and thus we have no choice but to live in sin to some degree.
but let us examine the context of what John is saying here:
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--
1Jn 1:2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things we write to you that your [1] joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
notice that this book of John follows a similar format of John 1.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend [1] it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. [2]
So Jesus is the light and the word form the beginning that John is telling us about.
what does John say next?
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
so if we walk in darkness then we do not have fellowship with him. so what does it mean to walk in darkness?
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we walk in the light we walk in?
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend [1] it.
Jesus is the light so if we walk in Jesus then we do not walk in darkness. and again:
1Jn 1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
So God is light. so John tells us that those who walk in the light have life which is in God. how does Jesus give us light?
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
So through Jesus we have the light of life.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
and again the scripture says:
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
So John is clearly speaking in the 1st chapter of 1 John, about Jesus sacrifice for us which in turn gives us life. This leads to a question, how do we get that life if we are sinners?
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
notice the context of this verse it is directly after John says:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Notice the implications here, The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin but only if we walk in the light/Jesus.
then he says:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Now he makes a point to say that we must acknowledge our sin in order to come to Christ or else we deceive ourselves. In other words, we can not accept the light of Christ if we do not acknowledge our sinful condition and need for a saviour.
this is reinforced by what John says next:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Notice the repeated sentiment here, he will forgive us if we confess our sins, praise God. but if we do not recognise our sin then we make him a lire and are unable to ask for forgiveness.
So John is trying to tell us that in order to have forgiveness of sin we must first recognise our need for a saviour and recognise our sinful condition.
So why Is John telling us this?
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
The reason he tells us this is so we do not sin any more. but John does not leave us without hope if we do sin for some reason. he brings us to our saviour who is our advocate with the father.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Now notice that John tells us again that Jesus is our sacrifice for our sins and we may know him if we keep His commandments. and then says if we do not keep them then we do not know him. but those who walk as He walked.
Did Jesus keep the commandments?
Yes he did so are we to walk as He did? John says Yes.
Look how John finishes this book. (due to lack of time I cannot go through the whole book)
1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
Look here John says that those who are born of God will love God and keep His commandments. where have we herd this?
Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep [83] My commandments. Jesus taught the same thing.
what next?
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1Jn 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our [14] faith.
notice that they have overcome the world How? by Faith in Jesus. now if the world runs after sin and we have overcome the world then we must not run after sin.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
those who believe in Jesus and have Faith in Him will overcome.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, [18] and the wicked one does not touch him.
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
notice there is sin that does not lead to death what is this sin?
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It is the sin that is repented of. to repent means to confess and then turn away form committing that sin.
Then he says that those who are born of God do not sin. so it is clear that those who have Jesus in their lives are empowered to turn away form sin.
Notice the subject on chapter 3 of this book.
1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
these verses are very clear. those who commit sin are law breakers and those who obey God do not sin and those who have Jesus in them can not sin. why because of Jesus.
It can not get any clearer my friends. that those who have Jesus turn away from sin which John says is breaking the law. those who are slaves to sin are of the devil. but John also makes it clear that Jesus is our advocate to save us from sin not in sin.
Praise the Lord for his freedom now through him we die daily and it is not us that live bu Christ that lives in us.
God bless you all.
The reason I ask this is because some who know the error of perfectionism often go to far to the other extreme and make the Grace of our Lord Jesus of no effect. Often they quote this very verse to uphold the Fact that we will not be able to keep the law and thus we have no choice but to live in sin to some degree.
but let us examine the context of what John is saying here:
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--
1Jn 1:2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things we write to you that your [1] joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
notice that this book of John follows a similar format of John 1.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend [1] it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. [2]
So Jesus is the light and the word form the beginning that John is telling us about.
what does John say next?
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
so if we walk in darkness then we do not have fellowship with him. so what does it mean to walk in darkness?
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we walk in the light we walk in?
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend [1] it.
Jesus is the light so if we walk in Jesus then we do not walk in darkness. and again:
1Jn 1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
So God is light. so John tells us that those who walk in the light have life which is in God. how does Jesus give us light?
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
So through Jesus we have the light of life.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
and again the scripture says:
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
So John is clearly speaking in the 1st chapter of 1 John, about Jesus sacrifice for us which in turn gives us life. This leads to a question, how do we get that life if we are sinners?
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
notice the context of this verse it is directly after John says:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Notice the implications here, The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin but only if we walk in the light/Jesus.
then he says:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Now he makes a point to say that we must acknowledge our sin in order to come to Christ or else we deceive ourselves. In other words, we can not accept the light of Christ if we do not acknowledge our sinful condition and need for a saviour.
this is reinforced by what John says next:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Notice the repeated sentiment here, he will forgive us if we confess our sins, praise God. but if we do not recognise our sin then we make him a lire and are unable to ask for forgiveness.
So John is trying to tell us that in order to have forgiveness of sin we must first recognise our need for a saviour and recognise our sinful condition.
So why Is John telling us this?
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
The reason he tells us this is so we do not sin any more. but John does not leave us without hope if we do sin for some reason. he brings us to our saviour who is our advocate with the father.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Now notice that John tells us again that Jesus is our sacrifice for our sins and we may know him if we keep His commandments. and then says if we do not keep them then we do not know him. but those who walk as He walked.
Did Jesus keep the commandments?
Yes he did so are we to walk as He did? John says Yes.
Look how John finishes this book. (due to lack of time I cannot go through the whole book)
1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
Look here John says that those who are born of God will love God and keep His commandments. where have we herd this?
Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep [83] My commandments. Jesus taught the same thing.
what next?
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1Jn 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our [14] faith.
notice that they have overcome the world How? by Faith in Jesus. now if the world runs after sin and we have overcome the world then we must not run after sin.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
those who believe in Jesus and have Faith in Him will overcome.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, [18] and the wicked one does not touch him.
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
notice there is sin that does not lead to death what is this sin?
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It is the sin that is repented of. to repent means to confess and then turn away form committing that sin.
Then he says that those who are born of God do not sin. so it is clear that those who have Jesus in their lives are empowered to turn away form sin.
Notice the subject on chapter 3 of this book.
1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
these verses are very clear. those who commit sin are law breakers and those who obey God do not sin and those who have Jesus in them can not sin. why because of Jesus.
It can not get any clearer my friends. that those who have Jesus turn away from sin which John says is breaking the law. those who are slaves to sin are of the devil. but John also makes it clear that Jesus is our advocate to save us from sin not in sin.
Praise the Lord for his freedom now through him we die daily and it is not us that live bu Christ that lives in us.
God bless you all.
1 Cor. 4:3-5
"3 ...it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God."
At some point in Apostle Paul's relationship with God, he came to know NOTHING against himself, but said that didn't justify him. He went on to speak of God exposing "the hidden things of darkness" and revealing "counsels of the hearts (where sin is conceived- Matt. 15:19)" when He returned.
Paul knew what a the perfect standard of God was for us to follow in the New Covenant, and could tell us all with a clear conscience that he knew NOTHING against himself.
Even so, Paul spoke of "hidden things of darkness" and a revealing "of the counsel of hearts" when the Lord comes.
I believe Paul was saying, when he stands before the absolutely Pure and Holy God, the light of God is going to shine through him entirely possibly exposing "hidden things of darkness" he could not see in his own heart, and His praise will be in Christ who justifies him whether anything is exposed or not.
I also believe Paul's example shows us the difference between a lifestyle of willful sin (Hebrews 10:26) and unwillful sin (hidden things of darkness). For us to live a lifestyle of not sinning willfully (Heb. 10:26), we have to be dead...Not I who live but Christ in me (Galatians 2:20). Only Christ will get the praise for that...who works out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).
I believe we should all reach that point in our relationship with God; that we know His will perfectly (which is the Word of God), and follow it to the extent that we know NOTHING against ourselves.
I think Paul would have never been so bold to say he had learned perfect obedience in all things even though he knew nothing against Himself. He might have played himself a fool when standing before the perfectly pure and perfectly Holy God we serve who will judge "the hidden things of darkness" and "reveal the counsels of hearts".
Psalm 50:21
"These [things] you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; [But] I will rebuke you, And set [them] in order before your eyes."
I am in no way promoting the mentality that we as Christians are sinners. We haven't been called to sin, we've been called to righteousness. We shouldn't sin. We should know the perfect will of God, be able to say with a clear conscience we know nothing against ourselves, and like Paul, never think we are justified by that.
"3 ...it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God."
At some point in Apostle Paul's relationship with God, he came to know NOTHING against himself, but said that didn't justify him. He went on to speak of God exposing "the hidden things of darkness" and revealing "counsels of the hearts (where sin is conceived- Matt. 15:19)" when He returned.
Paul knew what a the perfect standard of God was for us to follow in the New Covenant, and could tell us all with a clear conscience that he knew NOTHING against himself.
Even so, Paul spoke of "hidden things of darkness" and a revealing "of the counsel of hearts" when the Lord comes.
I believe Paul was saying, when he stands before the absolutely Pure and Holy God, the light of God is going to shine through him entirely possibly exposing "hidden things of darkness" he could not see in his own heart, and His praise will be in Christ who justifies him whether anything is exposed or not.
I also believe Paul's example shows us the difference between a lifestyle of willful sin (Hebrews 10:26) and unwillful sin (hidden things of darkness). For us to live a lifestyle of not sinning willfully (Heb. 10:26), we have to be dead...Not I who live but Christ in me (Galatians 2:20). Only Christ will get the praise for that...who works out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).
I believe we should all reach that point in our relationship with God; that we know His will perfectly (which is the Word of God), and follow it to the extent that we know NOTHING against ourselves.
I think Paul would have never been so bold to say he had learned perfect obedience in all things even though he knew nothing against Himself. He might have played himself a fool when standing before the perfectly pure and perfectly Holy God we serve who will judge "the hidden things of darkness" and "reveal the counsels of hearts".
Psalm 50:21
"These [things] you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; [But] I will rebuke you, And set [them] in order before your eyes."
I am in no way promoting the mentality that we as Christians are sinners. We haven't been called to sin, we've been called to righteousness. We shouldn't sin. We should know the perfect will of God, be able to say with a clear conscience we know nothing against ourselves, and like Paul, never think we are justified by that.
Last edited:
yes.
i keep hearing that.
i've never met anyone like that though.
but apparently (?) some do decide that after they are washed its better to go live like the devil.
or even to keep on like they were before they were offered salvation (if they are good enough, or perfect), to go back and live like they did when they cried out every day, or tried to kill themselves, or drank themselves into oblivion due to despair.
hmmm. i wonder why i don't know any christians like that. maybe i'm not one.
the licentiousness mentioned in Jude were those strange people who believed that it was actually pious to sin as much as possible, since the flesh is evil and should be fought with evil.
oh well.
love you all!
your friend in the hope of salvation (if i can get good enough to be saved)!
zone
i keep hearing that.
i've never met anyone like that though.
but apparently (?) some do decide that after they are washed its better to go live like the devil.
or even to keep on like they were before they were offered salvation (if they are good enough, or perfect), to go back and live like they did when they cried out every day, or tried to kill themselves, or drank themselves into oblivion due to despair.
hmmm. i wonder why i don't know any christians like that. maybe i'm not one.
the licentiousness mentioned in Jude were those strange people who believed that it was actually pious to sin as much as possible, since the flesh is evil and should be fought with evil.
oh well.
love you all!
your friend in the hope of salvation (if i can get good enough to be saved)!
zone
E
Paul called himself a wretched man. Who was unable to stop sin. He called himself the "chief of all sinners" I don't think Paul was saying he reached perfection. and that is why He said he knew nothing against himself. I think he was saying He did not worry about his sin, Because God will judge him (actually has, he judged his son on Paul's behalf, And if he dwelled on his sin issues he could not do the work of God.) If Paul was saying he was perfect. He was contradicting himself in so many ways. And boasting of his own sinlessness.
Remember, Paul said walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Walking in the spirit is thinking on God. Thinking of a sin issues is not walking in the spirit. Because if you think on sin, you are tempting yourself to do that sin again.
I also do not agree man does not wilfully sin. If you are tempted, you know it is sin. If you fall, you followed your flesh. But you still knew it was sin, and willfully decided to follow your flesh and not the spirit. About the only unknown sin would be sins we forgot about, or sins we did not know are sin.
Remember, Paul said walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Walking in the spirit is thinking on God. Thinking of a sin issues is not walking in the spirit. Because if you think on sin, you are tempting yourself to do that sin again.
I also do not agree man does not wilfully sin. If you are tempted, you know it is sin. If you fall, you followed your flesh. But you still knew it was sin, and willfully decided to follow your flesh and not the spirit. About the only unknown sin would be sins we forgot about, or sins we did not know are sin.
Originally Posted by Spiritual_Plague
1 Cor. 4:3-5
"3 ...it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God."
At some point in Apostle Paul's relationship with God, he came to know NOTHING against himself, but said that didn't justify him. He went on to speak of God exposing "the hidden things of darkness" and revealing "counsels of the hearts (where sin is conceived- Matt. 15:19)" when He returned.
Paul knew what a the perfect standard of God was for us to follow in the New Covenant, and could tell us all with a clear conscience that he knew NOTHING against himself.
Even so, Paul spoke of "hidden things of darkness" and a revealing "of the counsel of hearts" when the Lord comes.
I believe Paul was saying, when he stands before the absolutely Pure and Holy God, the light of God is going to shine through him entirely possibly exposing "hidden things of darkness" he could not see in his own heart, and His praise will be in Christ who justifies him whether anything is exposed or not.
I also believe Paul's example shows us the difference between a lifestyle of willful sin (Hebrews 10:26) and unwillful sin (hidden things of darkness). For us to live a lifestyle of not sinning willfully (Heb. 10:26), we have to be dead...Not I who live but Christ in me (Galatians 2:20). Only Christ will get the praise for that...who works out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).
I believe we should all reach that point in our relationship with God; that we know His will perfectly (which is the Word of God), and follow it to the extent that we know NOTHING against ourselves.
I think Paul would have never been so bold to say he had learned perfect obedience in all things even though he knew nothing against Himself. He might have played himself a fool when standing before the perfectly pure and perfectly Holy God we serve who will judge "the hidden things of darkness" and "reveal the counsels of hearts".
Psalm 50:21
"These [things] you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; [But] I will rebuke you, And set [them] in order before your eyes."
I am in no way promoting the mentality that we as Christians are sinners. We haven't been called to sin, we've been called to righteousness. We shouldn't sin. We should know the perfect will of God, be able to say with a clear conscience we know nothing against ourselves, and like Paul, never think we are justified by that.
If you want to believe Paul was trapped in sin for a time that's fine, although I completely disagree with your reading of those passages. Too much scripture even from Paul's own hand is weighted on the fact that we are to no longer sin now that we are in Christ. I don't believe Paul to be living a lifestyle of sin while telling others not to sin. That is complete hypocrisy.
Besides that, I mainly want to say to you...
That you misread what I said. I wasn't arguing Paul reached perfect obedience in all things and neither was Paul. I did say that Paul reached a point in his relationship with God where he knew NOTHING against himself.
I suggest you study on the passage a bit more, because you really did miss what what I said.
1 Cor. 4:3-5
"3 ...it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God."
At some point in Apostle Paul's relationship with God, he came to know NOTHING against himself, but said that didn't justify him. He went on to speak of God exposing "the hidden things of darkness" and revealing "counsels of the hearts (where sin is conceived- Matt. 15:19)" when He returned.
Paul knew what a the perfect standard of God was for us to follow in the New Covenant, and could tell us all with a clear conscience that he knew NOTHING against himself.
Even so, Paul spoke of "hidden things of darkness" and a revealing "of the counsel of hearts" when the Lord comes.
I believe Paul was saying, when he stands before the absolutely Pure and Holy God, the light of God is going to shine through him entirely possibly exposing "hidden things of darkness" he could not see in his own heart, and His praise will be in Christ who justifies him whether anything is exposed or not.
I also believe Paul's example shows us the difference between a lifestyle of willful sin (Hebrews 10:26) and unwillful sin (hidden things of darkness). For us to live a lifestyle of not sinning willfully (Heb. 10:26), we have to be dead...Not I who live but Christ in me (Galatians 2:20). Only Christ will get the praise for that...who works out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).
I believe we should all reach that point in our relationship with God; that we know His will perfectly (which is the Word of God), and follow it to the extent that we know NOTHING against ourselves.
I think Paul would have never been so bold to say he had learned perfect obedience in all things even though he knew nothing against Himself. He might have played himself a fool when standing before the perfectly pure and perfectly Holy God we serve who will judge "the hidden things of darkness" and "reveal the counsels of hearts".
Psalm 50:21
"These [things] you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; [But] I will rebuke you, And set [them] in order before your eyes."
I am in no way promoting the mentality that we as Christians are sinners. We haven't been called to sin, we've been called to righteousness. We shouldn't sin. We should know the perfect will of God, be able to say with a clear conscience we know nothing against ourselves, and like Paul, never think we are justified by that.
If you want to believe Paul was trapped in sin for a time that's fine, although I completely disagree with your reading of those passages. Too much scripture even from Paul's own hand is weighted on the fact that we are to no longer sin now that we are in Christ. I don't believe Paul to be living a lifestyle of sin while telling others not to sin. That is complete hypocrisy.
Besides that, I mainly want to say to you...
That you misread what I said. I wasn't arguing Paul reached perfect obedience in all things and neither was Paul. I did say that Paul reached a point in his relationship with God where he knew NOTHING against himself.
I suggest you study on the passage a bit more, because you really did miss what what I said.