Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[oyster67]

Correct.... and here's why we know Judas was not a devil in the beginning....

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Jesus does not violate God's Word as that would be a sin.

Don't go too far out on a limb there. Judas started out in sin just like the rest of us. The only question is whether or not He went through a period of being a partaker of the Spirit and grace of God before He fell to temptation.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Don't go too far out on a limb there. Judas started out in sin just like the rest of us. The only question is whether or not He went through a period of being a partaker of the Spirit and grace of God before He fell to temptation.

The Bible teaches all have fallen short of God's Glory... not we were all born sinners.

Point being, Judas did get saved just like the rest of the disciples otherwise Jesus would not have allowed any of them to come be apart of His ministry.

Jesus did not sin by bring someone in to His ministry that was not a believer and was walking in agreement with Him. It was later on after satan started working on Judas that he became a traitor.

It's amazing that people would think Jesus committed a sin!

 

[oyster67]

The Bible teaches all have fallen short of God's Glory... not we were all born sinners.

Romans 5:12
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

The curse that Adam and Eve brought upon the world is very real, my friend.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Romans 5:12
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

The curse that Adam and Eve brought upon the world is very real, my friend.

It says death came "UPON" all men... as in we all had opportunity to sin and we did which is when we fell short of God's glory.

You should read this verse:

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

Going by your logic, this verse means now all are saved... which is obviously not the case

 

[Cameron143]

It says death came "UPON" all men... as in we all had opportunity to sin and we did which is when we fell short of God's glory.

You should read this verse:

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

Going by your logic, this verse means now all are saved... which is obviously not the case

The phrase...for that all have sinned...shows that Adam was our representative, and, as such, his sin is imputed to us. Conversely, if we are saved, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The phrase...for that all have sinned...shows that Adam was our representative, and, as such, his sin is imputed to us.

I do not believe that Scriptures says that Adam's sin is "imputed" to us. The consequences of his sin and disobedience are said to have come upon mankind -- sin, judgment and death.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Rom 5:17, 18).

Do you see the two CONSEQUENCES? Death because of the indwelling sin nature and judgement to condemnation for the same reason. But no imputation of Adam's sin. Each person gives account for himself only.

At the same time Christ's righteousness is imputed to the one who believes. This is a part of justification by grace through faith.

 

[Cameron143]

I do not believe that Scriptures says that Adam's sin is "imputed" to us. The consequences of his sin and disobedience are said to have come upon mankind -- sin, judgment and death.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Rom 5:17, 18).

Do you see the two CONSEQUENCES? Death because of the indwelling sin nature and judgement to condemnation for the same reason. But no imputation of Adam's sin. Each person gives account for himself only.

At the same time Christ's righteousness is imputed to the one who believes. This is a part of justification by grace through faith.

It's a fair point, but how did we become guilty and judgement placed upon us if his sin isn't reckoned to us? We begin our existence never having committed a sin, and yet are under condemnation. Perhaps imputed isn't the exact word, but however you want to depict it, we became accountable for his sin before we sinned.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It's a fair point, but how did we become guilty and judgement placed upon us if his sin isn't reckoned to us?

How? The "flesh" or sin nature is inherited from Adam and Eve. The very fact that all humanity is subject to death confirms this. Therefore all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And all are guilty before God. Hence all need to be saved by grace through faith.

 

[Cameron143]

How? The "flesh" or sin nature is inherited from Adam and Eve. The very fact that all humanity is subject to death confirms this. Therefore all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And all are guilty before God. Hence all need to be saved by grace through faith.

Sure, we inherited the consequences of his sin. My question is, how did we become guilty and condemned before. sinning, if his actual sin isn't reckoned to us? What are we condemned for?

 

[rogerg]

Sure, we inherited the consequences of his sin. My question is, how did we become guilty and condemned before. sinning, if his actual sin isn't reckoned to us? What are we condemned for?

How do you think the law of sin and death came into being, and who is under its control? Notice that it says, "the law",
meaning that it is a singular law.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Cameron143]

How do you think the law of sin and death came into being, and who is under its control? Notice that it says, "the law",
meaning that it is a singular law.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

That's informative, but I still don't understand how an individual is made guilty before sinning unless sin is reckoned to them. I'm sure you have an application of the verse in mind. I'm still missing it.

 

[rogerg]

That's informative, but I still don't understand how an individual is made guilty before sinning unless sin is reckoned to them. I'm sure you have an application of the verse in mind. I'm still missing it.

I believe that law came into effect by the actions of Adam and Eve in eating the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Once that happened, because Adam was the progenitor of all mankind, all mankind was placed under it. We are all
under it from birth and remain so until saved.

 

[rogerg]

That's informative, but I still don't understand how an individual is made guilty before sinning unless sin is reckoned to them. I'm sure you have an application of the verse in mind. I'm still missing it.

I should actually have said from the womb and not from birth.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe that law came into effect by the actions of Adam and Eve in eating the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Once that happened, because Adam was the progenitor of all mankind, all mankind was placed under it. We are all
under it from birth and remain so until saved.

2 thoughts:
1. Weren't Adam and Eve already under the law? Didn't it already have a penalty of death?
2. Being placed under the law is different from being guilty and condemned. Jesus was made under the law. That fact didn't make Him guilty.
I understand that the consequences of Adam's sin are passed to all mankind. That's not my question. My question is...how are we made guilty apart from sin being reckoned to us?

 

[rogerg]

2 thoughts:
1. Weren't Adam and Eve already under the law? Didn't it already have a penalty of death?
2. Being placed under the law is different from being guilty and condemned. Jesus was made under the law. That fact didn't make Him guilty.
I understand that the consequences of Adam's sin are passed to all mankind. That's not my question. My question is...how are we made guilty apart from sin being reckoned to us?

1. I don't think so. God gave them a command not to eat from the tree with the warning that if they did, they would die. I don't
believe that is the same thing as being under law. Paul tells us that he was alive once without the law. He said
this because spiritually, he (and we) were in Adam's loins since he was the progenitor. Without that law there could be no sin.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. ...
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

2. This will probably take some getting used to, but the law of sin and death is a law and sin unto itself, it not being like the other laws. By its name we can see that it is both at the same time. So, for those under it, just by being under it, they sin.
I realize this is hard to accept because it is so different from what we've become used to, and many can't comprehend it.
But, if we look at the other side of Rom 8:2, we can see that Christ saves those whom He saves from that specific law/sin, with no
other laws being mentioned in that verse.

 

[Cameron143]

1. I don't think so. God gave them a command not to eat from the tree with the warning that if they did, they would die. I don't
believe that is the same thing as being under law. Paul tells us that he was alive once without the law. He said
this because spiritually, he (and we) were in Adam's loins since he was the progenitor. Without that law there could be no sin.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. ...
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

2. This will probably take some getting used to, but the law of sin and death is a law and sin unto itself, it not being like the other laws. By its name we can see that it is both at the same time. So, for those under it, just by being under it, they sin.
I realize this is hard to accept because it is so different from what we've become used to, and many can't comprehend it.
But, if we look at the other side of Rom 8:2, we can see that Christ saves those whom He saves from that specific law/sin, with no
other laws being mentioned in that verse.

Ok. I understand what you are saying. I don't know that I agree with the understanding you shared, but I do finally understand what you are saying.

 

[rogerg]

Ok. I understand what you are saying. I don't know that I agree with the understanding you shared, but I do finally understand what you are saying.

Okay, that's fine, but I'd be interested when you have time and are so inclined, for you to explain your points of disagreement - but no rush.

 

[Cameron143]

Okay, that's fine, but I'd be interested when you have time and are so inclined, for you to explain your points of disagreement - but no rush.

Sure. The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 seems to me to be simply another way of saying the law, but is characterized as the law of sin and death because it is being compared to the law of the Spirit and life. In other words, to magnify the comparison, dissimilar terms are highlighted.
The other thing I still don’t understand is how someone is found guilty or held accountable for sin before they have actually sinned. With this as a premise, mankind must have been credited or reckoned to have sinned with Adam to be guilty before God and under condemnation before ever sinning. I'm not married to the premise. I just haven't heard anyone explain it to my understanding or satisfaction.

 

[Magenta]

Sure. The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 seems to me to be simply another way of
saying the law, but is characterized as the law of sin and death because it is being compared to the
law of the Spirit and life. In other words, to magnify the comparison, dissimilar terms are highlighted.
The other thing I still don’t understand is how someone is found guilty or held accountable for sin before
they have actually sinned. With this as a premise, mankind must have been credited or reckoned to have
sinned with Adam to be guilty before God and under condemnation before ever sinning. I'm not married
to the premise. I just haven't heard anyone explain it to my understanding or satisfaction.

Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. Colossians 1:21

Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and
indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of
Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

 

[Cameron143]

Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. Colossians 1:21

Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and
indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of
Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

I must be tired today. First I'm telling lousy jokes, and now I can't follow people's line of reasoning. But I did watch the movie "Klaus" with my family during family night. It was actually pretty good.