Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

This makes sense to me ... I think I may have discussed this with you before, not sure how far that conversation went but "saved" also is connected to the physical and the soul, not always saved (regeneration).

I would say a lot of what Paul writes is about the salvation of the soul.
When the writers of the epistles wrote they were addressing those whom they believed were an audience born from above, unless they are addressing an interlocutor as in the Book of James.
In this way scripture is not contradictory. Growing up in culture that uses "saved" many different ways I completely understand the expressive style.

"save" and cognates always has to be interpreted in context. It's a very basic word (e.g. save from drowning, from enemies, etc.) and then as you allude to, there are different aspects or phases to our salvation and different things being accomplished through the process until completed. I was surprised when I studied and taught it how little the entrance into salvation was being discussed in Scripture (where "salvation" is stated) and how much the discussion is looking through that entrance and into the process of being saved (aka progressive sanctification as it's called by some). IOW, more of the NC dealing with salvation words is focused on Christians growing up in Christ in Spirit than it is being born into Christ in Spirit.

 

[Genez]

Do you believe the current spiritual condition of your soul is everlasting?

It will get better..
Infinity better!

That will happen when we find ourselves in our resurrection bodies!
That is when we will discover what God created for our souls to experience in His Light.

What we (our souls) are in for is beyond imagination!

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has imagined—
the things God has prepared for those who love him."

1 Corinthians 2:9b​

grace and peace.....

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8:31-35
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not even his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how hath he not also, with him, given us all things? 33 Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword?

I am convinced that nothing in creation shall separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus... Shortened because I am on my phone at work and cannot copy and paste as I would wish to include the whole verse...

 

[Magenta]

Are you saying the Law of Moses is still current today and active?

Are you asking Rufus if he believes the law of Moses is binding on Christians? It does seem an odd question to ask...

 

[studier]

Then do not try to tell me I am wrong when you have not studied.

I'm out. "when you have not studied" - my goodness.

Do the work on all uses of "katergazomai" in the text and get back to me re: the mining concept. Paul uses the word about 20 times. I'll start you off:

YLT Romans 1:27 and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working (accomplishing or chipping at rocks like a miner - maybe drilling for treasure would be better?) shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.

Absurdities...

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8:38-39 Psalm 91:11

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Are you asking Rufus if he believes the law of Moses is binding on Christians? It does seem an odd question to ask...

Yes, he used a verse that implies that the Law is active. I just wondered if he believes the Law is therefore still active.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm out. "when you have not studied" - my goodness.

Do the work on all uses of "katergazomai" in the text and get back to me re: the mining concept. Paul uses the word about 20 times. I'll start you off:

YLT Romans 1:27 and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working (accomplishing or chipping at rocks like a miner - maybe drilling for treasure would be better?) shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.

Absurdities...

Then I will continue to believe you are preaching that you must earn your salvation.

You have not convinced me otherwise.

As for your foolish explaination trying to use romans. what a joke.

You also did not hear my explanation. or you would not have made such a foolish comment as you did.

It is not working on rocks, it is working to retrieve the rocks that are already there.

Drilling for treasure? That would work.

It is one of the examples of how many in secular Rome used the word, we can take that as an example to extrapolate a meaning. that's how you do things when you actually study

Again Try to study, don't just tell people they are wrong. Most people do not just make things up..

And I have studied the word extensively.. Your going to start me off?? Yes, as you said, My goodness.

 

[Iconoclast]

PaulThomson said:
Does scripture say anywhere that anyone is chosen by God for salvation? it seems to me to say God chooses people for roles of service.
SO, apparently, your, answer equates to: "No, I read that into the text "

Your weak answer and attempted insult shows you are another fool opposed to truth.
So apparently, your answer ,shows you are biblically and theologically deficient.

Being IN CHRIST is at the core of Christian theology. Any real Christian knows this.
To say he read it into the text shows a low level of respect for the word of God.

 

[Rufus]

Are you saying the Law of Moses is still current today and active?

Why would you think I said that?

 

[Hakawaka]

The word is used 32x in Scripture. Phl2:12 is the only time translators chose to translate it as "work out" and IMO it's clear why - because they are being sensitive to not get close to the works salvation issue, which also IMO is overprotected to the point of absurdity. IMO it's simply another example of how men swing the pendulum too far to the opposite extreme instead of coming to a balanced and Biblical view of what is and is not Biblical works.

This is so true! I so agree with you! We have reached antinomian levels of the not of works teaching. We are at a point where you can be cheating on your wife every weekend, go to church on sunday and the pastor will tell you that you are simply "struggling" with sin and you know, no one is perfect and hey, i bet some other people are mean to their spouses anyway, sin is sin. While biblically there is a difference between sins, its very evident, there are sins to pray for and sins unto death NOT to be prayed for.

As to the not of works issue you so brilliantly put in this post, I believe its simple, if you read the new testament you will find out that the controversy was some pharisee believers who wanted the gentiles to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses for their justification. THIS is what Paul was battling against. Not by the works of the law [of Moses]!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Why would you think I said that?

Not saying you said that but asking if you said that? And if you did say that is that what you believe for today?

 

[Rufus]

Are you asking Rufus if he believes the law of Moses is binding on Christians? It does seem an odd question to ask...

Hah...you noticed!

Just as an aside...it's interesting that he just couldn't acknowledge the clear teaching of the passage. Intuitive Revelation is often balked at by people with their own personal theological agendas. I wonder if Mr. Shiloh thinks this kind of revelation of God's Law also ended at the Cross?

 

[Rufus]

Not saying you said that but asking if you said that? And if you did say that is that what you believe for today?

My answer is "no", I didn't say it. But that doesn't mean that Christ set his people free to live antinomian lifestyles either. Do you agree?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

My answer is "no", I didn't say it. But that doesn't mean that Christ set his people free to live antinomian lifestyles either. Do you agree?

I was just making sure I understood you. I did not want to be guilty of assumption. And I do agree and I oppose antinomian lifestyles.

 

[studier]

and the pastor will tell you that you are simply "struggling" with sin and you know, no one is perfect and hey, i bet some other people are mean to their spouses anyway, sin is sin

Thanks for the comments and input. I agree with what you said about Paul and what he was dealing with and with that aspect of confusion re: works.

I quoted your above statement because I not only agree with you here also, but have been close enough to a situation where a pastor was backing a husband on a matter I can't discuss here. Let's just say it made what Paul dealt with in Corinth look mild.

The antinomianism and lack of correct teaching has the Church in a bad way IMO. It's not going to end well.

 

[MerSee]

Lets see,

I am told I will never die
I am told I will live forever
I am told I will be raised on the last day
I am told I was sealed by the spirit until the day of ressurection.
I am told I will never be lost
I am told I have overcome the world
I am told I will spend eternity with God.

so yeah. I would say it is eternal. Based on the hope that was given me, and my trust in that hope..

do you?

TBD.

 

[Cameron143]

I was talking about the part of the Law that you should know about.... And, you did.
I did not ask for a dissertation about the various aspects of the Law that does not pertain to the aspect I was pointing to.

You just wander....

Adam and Eve, in the garden, knew intellectually of the existence of both good and evil. How do we know? First, because there was a tree that they knew about called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Second, God commanded them not to eat of the tree or they would die. Implied in the commandment is not eating is good and eating is evil. So the knowledge of good and evil is not intellectual knowledge, but experiential knowledge. They already had intellectual knowledge of good and evil, and had experiential knowledge of good, but they lacked experiential knowledge of evil.

The giving of the commandment was certainly a grace of God. Defining good and evil more strictly for Adam and Eve was certainly helpful, but even without it, Adam and Eve knew intellectually of good and evil. They had innate knowledge because they were created in the image of God. But further, in their conscience, they also had intellectual knowledge of good and evil.
How do we know this is true? History teaches us. There has never been any society or culture, whether they have had the word of God or not, that doesn't have a code of conduct for what is acceptable or right behavior and what is unacceptable and wrong behavior.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

TBD.

Set in Stone, or at least in writing.

 

[Genez]

Adam and Eve, in the garden, knew intellectually of the existence of both good and evil. How do we know? First, because there was a tree that they knew about called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

They did not know good and evil before they ate.

​

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, ​

knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand ​

and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Gen 3:22​

Before they fell?
They did not know what evil was.
They were only knowing good!

Word usage in the Bible is needed to be understood..

When a hurricane destroyed an ancient village?
An ancient might say... "A great evil has overtaken our village."

Evil is bad things happening.
In the Garden it was continuous peace. No evil.
They had no knowledge of evil.

When they fell and everything began going wrong for them?

Suddenly ... they knew what evil was.

Here..

Look at Isaiah 45:7!

King James Version

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.



Now look how we would say it today!

​

New International Version​

I form the light and create darkness,​

I bring prosperity and create disaster;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.​

New King James Version​

I form the light and create darkness,​

I make peace and create calamity;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.’​

English Standard Version​

I form light and create darkness;​

I make well-being and create calamity;​

I am the Lord, who does all these things.​

​

According to Isaiah 45:7 Adam and Eve had no way of knowing evil until after they fell. It was the first time they experienced evil!

Our definitions of words should not be based upon our gut feelings.
But upon its usage as found in Scripture.


grace and peace!