Eastern Orthodoxy is not Talmud Pharisaism (Mishnaism).

[Scotth1960]

[quote=Scotth1960;535363]

It is fact because in many greek manuscripts which we have in our hands

today (which were found by many wonderful documents which contain the


greek word which could only be interpreted as one. It is not just him. MANY

MANY people have found these same documents and all agree. So we just

discard them?

The koine greek is not a used language today. anymore than "old english" is

used. so who do we go to to understand old english? Experts in the language

who have studied it, or our own personal interpretation? A modern greek

speaker may or may not use the same slang as they used 2000 years ago.

and would not be a good "expert" because he would try to interpret it the

way he says it. not the way they did. Look at the english word tongue? How

many people speak that way today? How do we interpret it? Like some

churches do as a language of God? or as they did back when it was used. as

language??

How can I know what they believed in the early church?

Friend, How can you fail to know what they believed in the early church?

In Erie PA Scott H.

the roman church admited they destroyed all documents and books written

by anyone they considered a heretic. so how would I know if they did not

destroy books and writings which showed the opposite of what you believe

and shows what I believe.

How would I know there were these things and they were destroyed? I can't

know. thats why I don't follow men. I follow GOD.

A mediator is one who HAS THE POWER to mediate a major difference

between two parties. God has a debt out against us, It is called sin. Christ is

the ONLY One capable of mediating between us and God when we sin. HE PAID

THE PRICE. No man, alive or dead, can mediate between God and us pertaining

to sin.

I can pray that God helps someone change. I can pray that God heals

someone, or anything other than sin. Like the 24 elders did. But NO ONE HAS

THE RIGHT OR POWER TO MEDIATE BETWEEN ME AND GOD CONCERNING MY SIN?

Only Christ can.

Dear EG,

That is true. I was saying that. Ultimately, only God can forgive sin. But God

commands His Church to forgive sin too. And if we want to be forgiven, we

must forgive. But God has the final word about who is forgiven. It seems He

can base its, along with His shed blood, on how we forgive. God forgive us all.

I forgive anyone who trespasses against me. I don't take things personally. I

am only human true. So I have feelings, and I don't like it when people use ad

hominem arguments against me or more important against the Church. It's

just not right. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


A sinner, who needs a mediator him or herself, can not

mediate on my behalf.

Dear friend, So are you saying that all men are sinners

only, and that there is no man who overcomes sin and is

righteous? All people have some sins, but that does not

mean that all people are unrighteous. A righteous man

who sins can be forgiven when he repents and forsakes

his sin. Yes, Christ is the only Mediator with God the

Father. But that does not mean He is the only

intercessor (the only one who prays to God on our

behalf). What are you to make, then, of St. James 5:16

NKJV "Confess your trespasses to one another, and

pray for one anther, that you may be healed. The

effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails

much." So, in your reading of Scripture, do you say the

effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man does not

avail much? In the ONT (volume 2, page 441, St. James

5:16 reads): "Keep on confessing your transgressions to

one another and praying for one another, that ye might

be healed. The entreaty of righteous man hath much

strength when it is energized." (A more literal

translation of the Greek NT than the NKJV).

God save us all in Christ the Savior. Amen. In Erie PA

USA Wed., August 31, 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

Saying they can is like saying a person charged with murder and on trial himself can

mediate between a judge and another murderer on trial. Aint gonna happen! The judge

wont even listen to him!

 

[Scotth1960]

It is fact because in many greek manuscripts which we have in our hands today (which were found by many wonderful documents which contain the greek word which could only be interpreted as one. It is not just him. MANY MANY people have found these same documents and all agree. So we just discard them?
The koine greek is not a used language today. anymore than "old english" is used. so who do we go to to understand old english? Experts in the language who have studied it, or our own personal interpretation? A modern greek speaker may or may not use the same slang as they used 2000 years ago. and would not be a good "expert" because he would try to interpret it the way he says it. not the way they did. Look at the english word tongue? How many people speak that way today? How do we interpret it? Like some churches do as a language of God? or as they did back when it was used. as language??


How can I know what they believed in the early church? the roman church admited they destroyed all documents and books written by anyone they considered a heretic. so how would I know if they did not destroy books and writings which showed the opposite of what you believe and shows what I believe.

How would I know there were these things and they were destroyed? I can't know. thats why I don't follow men. I follow GOD.

A mediator is one who HAS THE POWER to mediate a major difference between two parties. God has a debt out against us, It is called sin. Christ is the ONLY One capable of mediating between us and God when we sin. HE PAID THE PRICE. No man, alive or dead, can mediate between God and us pertaining to sin.

I can pray that God helps someone change. I can pray that God heals someone, or anything other than sin. Like the 24 elders did. But NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT OR POWER TO MEDIATE BETWEEN ME AND GOD CONCERNING MY SIN? Only Christ can.

Dear EG,
That is true. I was saying that. Ultimately, only God can forgive sin. But God commands His Church to forgive sin too. And if we want to be forgiven, we must forgive. But God has the final word about who is forgiven. It seems He can base its, along with His shed blood, on how we forgive. God forgive us all. I forgive anyone who trespasses against me. I don't take things personally. I am only human true. So I have feelings, and I don't like it when people use ad hominem arguments against me or more important against the Church. It's just not right. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington




A sinner, who needs a mediator him or herself, can not mediate on my behalf. Saying they can is like saying a person charged with murder and on trial himself can mediate between a judge and another murderer on trial. Aint gonna happen! The judge wont even listen to him!

Friend, Is Christ the only One Who can turn a sinner from the error of his ways? Christ said, "Without Me you can do nothing." Christ did not say, "You can do nothing." Also, with Christ "there is life". And "I can do all things through Christ, which strengtheneth me." So, it is possible to do things with Christ's help! Thus, consider well the following words from Saint James, if by noting that while Scripture says there is one Mediator between God and men, that does not mean there are not many intercessors for men. St. James 5:16-20 ONT (Orthodox New Testament, Vol. 2, page 441): "Keep on confessing your transgressions to one another and praying for one another, that ye might be healed. The entreaty of a righteous man hath much strength when it is energized. Elias was a man of like feelings to us, and with the prayer he prayed for it not to rain, and it did not rain upon the earth for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth blossomed forth her fruit.
"Brethren, if anyone among you should be led stray from the truth, and someone should turn him around, let him know that the one that turneth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins."
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington August 2011 AD

 

[Strangelove]

Question again to Scott...how do you know saint basil is really a saint?

Do you or any other man or institution have the godlike ability to look into a persons heart to know their faith?

Why do you risk praying to a dead man?

Why are you praying to ANYONE other than God?

 

[Scotth1960]

Question again to Scott...how do you know saint basil is really a saint?

Do you or any other man or institution have the godlike ability to look into a persons heart to know their faith?

Why do you risk praying to a dead man?

Why are you praying to ANYONE other than God?

Dear Strangelove:
I pray TO God with the saints. Both God and the saints are involved in prayer (see James 5:16 KJV).
How do you know Saint Basil is not really a saint? How do you know that Saint Peter is really a saint, or is not really a saint? Or any other person in the NT? Or in the post-NT era? How do you know that Saint Irenaeus is really a saint? How do you know these people are "dead men"?
Aren't the people in heaven more alive than we are?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrinton

 

[Grandpa]

Dear Strangelove:
I pray TO God with the saints. Both God and the saints are involved in prayer (see James 5:16 KJV).
How do you know Saint Basil is not really a saint? How do you know that Saint Peter is really a saint, or is not really a saint? Or any other person in the NT? Or in the post-NT era? How do you know that Saint Irenaeus is really a saint? How do you know these people are "dead men"?
Aren't the people in heaven more alive than we are?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrinton

The point is you don't know if they are in heaven. You are taking a chance, based on mens opinions and traditions. What if you are praying to someone who is not in heaven? What if one of your church fathers made a mistake? You've seen church fathers make mistakes before in the Lutheran church and in the catholic church. People sometimes make mistakes. That's why we have Jesus.

God Bless You

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Friend, How can you fail to know what they believed in the early church?

1st, again, are you going to lean how to quote. I still can hardly tell what your saying and where I left off.

2nd I do know. I have the written word of God which tells me what they believed. All other sources are not inspired. so we can not know wence they came from, or if other documents of beliefs have not been destroyed.

Dear EG,

That is true. I was saying that. Ultimately, only God can forgive sin. But God

commands His Church to forgive sin too. And if we want to be forgiven, we

must forgive. But God has the final word about who is forgiven. It seems He

can base its, along with His shed blood, on how we forgive. God forgive us all.

I forgive anyone who trespasses against me. I don't take things personally. I

am only human true. So I have feelings, and I don't like it when people use ad

hominem arguments against me or more important against the Church. It's

just not right. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

We both can forgive people. But that will not get them to heaven. No one on Earth has the power to forgive, or tell them they are forgiven, Only God has that power. And only Christ can mediate on our behalf. God is not going to listen to a priest mediate on someones behalf, and say, Ok because you think he should be forgiven, I will forgive. The priest is in the same predicament. He is guilty also. A person who is guilty can not mediate on behalf of another guilty person.

Dear friend, So are you saying that all men are sinners

I don't say it. God does.

only, and that there is no man who overcomes sin and is righteous?

James said if you commit the least of all sin, you are guilty of the whole law. So if a person who seems righteous to us, commits a small sin, they are just as guilty as if they have broken every commandment given in the law. It is nothing but pride to think we or anyone here could ever be rightious. The only possible way to do this is be sinless. And John makes it clear. He who says he has no sin (which John included himself in this message) has no truth in him, He is a liar. So if we all have sin, and even the smallest of sins makes us totally iunrighteous in the eyes of God. WHo is in right standing with God based on being righteous themselves? NO ONE

All people have some sins, but that does not mean that all people are unrighteous.

According to James and Paul it does. Who do I listen to> The EO or Paul and James

A righteous man who sins can be forgiven when he repents and forsakes his sin. Yes, Christ is the only Mediator with God the Father. But that does not mean He is the only intercessor (the only one who prays to God on our behalf). What are you to make, then, of St. James 5:16

NKJV "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one anther, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." So, in your reading of Scripture, do you say the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man does not avail much? In the ONT (volume 2, page 441, St. James 5:16 reads): "Keep on confessing your transgressions to one another and praying for one another, that ye might be healed. The entreaty of righteous man hath much strength when it is energized." (A more literal translation of the Greek NT than the NKJV).

It is simple, Don't hide your sin, If you do not freely admit (confess) your sin to others, how can they help you? God has put them on earth to help you overcome sin. Yet no where in that passage does it say confess to someone else so you can be forgiven.

I repeat myself;

Saying a sinner who is also guilty of sin can mediate for you is like saying a person charged with murder and on trial himself can mediate between a judge and another murderer on trial. Aint gonna happen! The judge wont even listen to him! And neither will God

 

[Scotth1960]

The point is you don't know if they are in heaven. You are taking a chance, based on mens opinions and traditions. What if you are praying to someone who is not in heaven? What if one of your church fathers made a mistake? You've seen church fathers make mistakes before in the Lutheran church and in the catholic church. People sometimes make mistakes. That's why we have Jesus.

God Bless You

Dear Grandpa, If the Church makes mistakes, what are we to make of St. Matthew 16:18? If the Church makes mistakes, the Matthew 16:18 is false. Take it up with the LORD whether or not this is so. Individuals are not the Church. The Church is a Body of many members, and only collectively, as a group, is the Church infallible. You don't mean to say that Mt. 16:18 is false, no? The gates of hell (mouths of heretics) have not prevailed against the Church through all the ages. Matthew 16:18 didn't say that the Church will make mistakes.
The church fathers are part of the Church. There is no such thing as a lutheran "church". It's heresy and schism. There's no such thing as a papist "church"; it's heresy and schism, and the popes of Rome stole the words "Catholic Church" to apply only to themselves, when they say "FILIOQUE", which is heresy against St. John 15:26. God bless you much and may you find joy in Jesus Christ. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Amen. "People sometimes make mistakes. That's why we have Jesus." True.
St. Peter made mistakes, but that isn't the whole, point of the story. He was forgiven and restored by the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Scotth1960]

The point is you don't know if they are in heaven. You are taking a chance, based on mens opinions and traditions. What if you are praying to someone who is not in heaven? What if one of your church fathers made a mistake? You've seen church fathers make mistakes before in the Lutheran church and in the catholic church. People sometimes make mistakes. That's why we have Jesus.

God Bless You

So why do you listen to St. Paul in the NT if you doubt and don't know that he is in heaven. By your logic, we would have to reject much of the Bible, for unless the writers of the Bible made it to heaven, how could their writings be trustworthy? Cannot God save whomever He will? Are you saying God did not will to save St. Paul, who wrote most of the NT, and St. Peter, St. John, St. Mark, St. Matthew, St. Luke, St. James, St. Jude? Why do you say that the church fathers are men, and you don't say the writers of the NT are men? Why do you assume only the NT is correct, and that the church couldn't stay without error after the NT era?
Does Matt. 16:18 make any sense if the Church fell into errors?

 

[Strangelove]

Dear Strangelove:
I pray TO God with the saints. Both God and the saints are involved in prayer (see James 5:16 KJV).

No Scott, you have said on multiple occasions that you pray TO SAINTS. And also that you ask them to pray for you. That means you are attempting to communicate with them.

How do you know Saint Basil is not really a saint? How do you know that Saint Peter is really a saint, or is not really a saint? Or any other person in the NT? Or in the post-NT era? How do you know that Saint Irenaeus is really a saint? How do you know these people are "dead men"?

I DONT. THATS THE POINT!

And neither do YOU!

How do you know Basil or Irenaeus are in heaven?

You might be praying to dead men. Why do you risk this abomination?

Aren't the people in heaven more alive than we are?

YES! They are just fine...but WE dont know if Basil and Irenaeus are up there. Do we?

 

[Strangelove]

Dear Grandpa, If the Church makes mistakes, what are we to make of St. Matthew 16:18? If the Church makes mistakes, the Matthew 16:18 is false. Take it up with the LORD whether or not this is so. Individuals are not the Church. The Church is a Body of many members, and only collectively, as a group, is the Church infallible. You don't mean to say that Mt. 16:18 is false, no? The gates of hell (mouths of heretics) have not prevailed against the Church through all the ages. Matthew 16:18 didn't say that the Church will make mistakes.
The church fathers are part of the Church. There is no such thing as a lutheran "church". It's heresy and schism. There's no such thing as a papist "church"; it's heresy and schism, and the popes of Rome stole the words "Catholic Church" to apply only to themselves, when they say "FILIOQUE", which is heresy against St. John 15:26. God bless you much and may you find joy in Jesus Christ. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Amen. "People sometimes make mistakes. That's why we have Jesus." True.
St. Peter made mistakes, but that isn't the whole, point of the story. He was forgiven and restored by the Lord Jesus Christ.

so why do you listen to St. Paul in the NT if you doubt and don't know that he is in heaven. By your logic, we would have to reject much of the Bible, for unless the writers of the Bible made it to heaven, how could their writings be trustworthy? Cannot God save whomever He will? Are you saying God did not will to save St. Paul, who wrote most of the NT, and St. Peter, St. John, St. Mark, St. Matthew, St. Luke, St. James, St. Jude? Why do you say that the church fathers are men, and you don't say the writers of the NT are men? Why do you assume only the NT is correct, and that the church couldn't stay without error after the NT era?
Does Matt. 16:18 make any sense if the Church fell into errors?

Absurd...absurd evasion of the issue at hand.

Please can the EO send someone better.

 

[Scotth1960]

YOUR WORDS
1st, again, are you going to lean how to quote. I still can hardly tell what your saying and where I left off.

2nd I do know. I have the written word of God which tells me what they believed.
All other sources are not inspired,

my words
Dear Friend, If all other sources are not inspired, then the Church is not inspired, and 1 Tim. 3:15 is false. It says the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth". If the Church as the pillar and ground of the truth can't issue Holy-Spirit inspired pronouncements on what the NT means, then John 16:13 is false, and the Church was not led into all of the truth. If what you say is true, the whole of the NT itself is called into question, if there is nothing inspired but the mere written words of the OT and NT Scriptures only. If that is so, then 2 Thess. 2:15 is also false, because that verse by St. Paul tells his disciples to keep his spoken words, and not just the written part of his traditions, his epistles. If only the NT written part is inspired, the Apostles of Christ, all twelve of them, were uninspired, and they preached a false gospel and a false message, because they only preached in their written words, but their spoken words would then be subject to error. Your view is quite contradictory of the actual truth, and fully and wholly illogical. It makes a mockery of St. Matthew 16:18.
God bless you. In Erie Scott H.


your words
so we can not know wence they came from, or if other documents of beliefs have not been destroyed.

my words
Friend, Illogical. Yours is a negative argument, and it is impossible to prove a negative.
In Erie Scott H.

your words
We both can forgive people. But that will not get them to heaven. No one on Earth has the power to forgive, or tell them they are forgiven, Only God has that power. And only Christ can mediate on our behalf. God is not going to listen to a priest mediate on someones behalf,

my words Friend, If God is not going to listen to a priest mediate for others, then St. James 5:16 is false. If that verse is false, the rest of the NT is false, and the whole Bible, including the OT! Your words destroy and mock against the holy words of God in the holy Bible. Yet you cannot see that what you are trying to say is quite much nonsense! God bless you! In Erie Scott H.

your words
and say, Ok because you think he should be forgiven, I will forgive. The priest is in the same predicament. He is guilty also. A person who is guilty can not mediate on behalf of another guilty person.

Christ's words "Whosoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whosoever sin's you retain, they are retained."

My words Christ didn't say St. Peter and the apostles had to be not guilty in order to forgive sins. Your words make no biblical sense.
Scott H.

your words
I don't say it. God does.

my words
you're not saying everything that God says. You're selectively citing the Scriptures to prove your own point, not God's points, or the teachings of the church fathers, which are God's points
Scott H.

your words
James said if you commit the least of all sin, you are guilty of the whole law. So if a person who seems righteous to us, commits a small sin, they are just as guilty as if they have broken every commandment given in the law. It is nothing but pride to think we or anyone here could ever be rightious. The only possible way to do this is be sinless. And John makes it clear. He who says he has no sin (which John included himself in this message) has no truth in him, He is a liar. So if we all have sin, and even the smallest of sins makes us totally unrighteous in the eyes of God. WHo is in right standing with God based on being righteous themselves? NO ONE

God's words: see Titus 3:5

My words:
We are not saved by our own righteousness, but by God's mercy. St. Titus 3:5


your words According to James and Paul it does. Who do I listen to> The EO or Paul and James

my words Paul and James are EO, same Church, different times.

your words
It is simple, Don't hide your sin, If you do not freely admit (confess) your sin to others, how can they help you? God has put them on earth to help you overcome sin. Yet no where in that passage does it say confess to someone else so you can be forgiven.

Christ's words
"Whosoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whosoever's sins you retain, they are retained."

My words Perhaps you don't believe Christ's words, but these are Christ's words, not the words of a mere man, such as myself, or yourself. God save us. In Erie Scott H.

your words
I repeat myself;

Saying a sinner who is also guilty of sin can mediate for you is like saying a person charged with murder and on trial himself can mediate between a judge and another murderer on trial. Aint gonna happen! The judge wont even listen to him! And neither will God


Christ's words "Whosoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whosoever's sins you retain, they are retained."

My words Christ will listen to us if we forgive. If we want to be forgiven, we must forgive. Even as Christ forgives us because of His shed blood, when we repent and receive the sacraments (Acts), and forgives us seventy time seven, and is patiently waiting for all sinners to repent, so He can save them.
We must forgive seventy times seven, as Christ tells His Church to forgive.
God bless you all and forgive you, and I forgive you. You have done me no wrong, but I pray that God will forgive you, for God is the only One Who will say who is forgiven. God forgive me, God forgive all of us. Amen. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Scotth1960]

Absurd...absurd evasion of the issue at hand.

Please can the EO send someone better.

Dear Strangelove, So explain to me whether or notyou think Matthew 16:18 proves the later Church erred? Explain to me how there can be no Church such that the gates of hell will not prevail against Her? Explain to me why you don't believe Matthew 16:18, and only the NT is infallible, but you don't believe the infallible promise of the infallible Christ in the infallible verse Matthew 16:18 in the infallible NT?
God bless you. In Erie Scott H.
PS Can you not do better than to speak against me, instead of trying to be against everything, to be for something? And why do you assume a critical attitude toward me? I am not at all critical of you in any way whatsoever. I only question your words when they or illogical or your practice when it is unbiblical.

 

[Scotth1960]

No Scott, you have said on multiple occasions that you pray TO SAINTS. And also that you ask them to pray for you. That means you are attempting to communicate with them.


I DONT. THATS THE POINT!

And neither do YOU!

How do you know Basil or Irenaeus are in heaven?

You might be praying to dead men. Why do you risk this abomination?



YES! They are just fine...but WE dont know if Basil and Irenaeus are up there. Do we?

Strangelove, I am not attempting to have the saints communicate with me. Only the saints who are alive on earth right now. Like you could be a saint, too. When Christ has mercy on you.
How can the 24 elders not hear the prayers of those living on earth? Don't you understand the communion of saints is not limited only to those on earth? What verse says the communion of saints is limited to those on earth? Chapter and verse, please!
In Erie PA Scott H.
PS You don't know if Basil and Irenaeus are in heaven. That doesn't prove that no one can know that they are in heaven.

 

[Muskokaman]

I noticed your signature and thought I would drop a line
If we follow the bishop as Jesus followed God wouldn't we be following a false God as we are following the bishop not Jesus himself?
If we followed the priesthood as the apostles and showed reverence to the deacons as I would the Word of God doesn't that make me put a man before myself to God as intercessor and why is this necesssary if I have the Word of God in writing?

In the last part of your signature it would seem that Ignatious of antioch is attempting to usurp the place of our Lord Jesus Christ when stating"Wherever the bishop appears let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is so is the Catholic church"
Ignatious was no saint nor was he an apostle this is why the reformation happened exactly because of unsound doctrine being brought forth perpetualy by men seeking to maintain power of an institution through edicts of false doctrine. Jesus's intent was that of a spiritual church on earth and yes we need teachers priests, preachers But the Word is Paramount and when we pay attention to the Words of God as given in the OT and the NT and Jesus and his apostles ONLY that we get the Truth of the Word all others are false doctrines and only ill can come of them this includes all and any texts written after John the apostle wrote Revelations. For there have been no true prophecies since His
The last four verses of the KJV bible are and I quote


18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[Grandpa]

Dear Grandpa, If the Church makes mistakes, what are we to make of St. Matthew 16:18? If the Church makes mistakes, the Matthew 16:18 is false. Take it up with the LORD whether or not this is so. Individuals are not the Church. The Church is a Body of many members, and only collectively, as a group, is the Church infallible. You don't mean to say that Mt. 16:18 is false, no? The gates of hell (mouths of heretics) have not prevailed against the Church through all the ages. Matthew 16:18 didn't say that the Church will make mistakes.
The church fathers are part of the Church. There is no such thing as a lutheran "church". It's heresy and schism. There's no such thing as a papist "church"; it's heresy and schism, and the popes of Rome stole the words "Catholic Church" to apply only to themselves, when they say "FILIOQUE", which is heresy against St. John 15:26. God bless you much and may you find joy in Jesus Christ. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Amen. "People sometimes make mistakes. That's why we have Jesus." True.
St. Peter made mistakes, but that isn't the whole, point of the story. He was forgiven and restored by the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have the wrong view of Matthew 16:18. You don't know what Christs church is. You are using circular reasoning that makes NO SENSE. Your church HAS made mistakes and yet Matthew 16:18 still remains true. You are using the same sleight of hand that your church uses to assume the authority that only Jesus Christ has.

So why do you listen to St. Paul in the NT if you doubt and don't know that he is in heaven. By your logic, we would have to reject much of the Bible, for unless the writers of the Bible made it to heaven, how could their writings be trustworthy? Cannot God save whomever He will? Are you saying God did not will to save St. Paul, who wrote most of the NT, and St. Peter, St. John, St. Mark, St. Matthew, St. Luke, St. James, St. Jude? Why do you say that the church fathers are men, and you don't say the writers of the NT are men? Why do you assume only the NT is correct, and that the church couldn't stay without error after the NT era?
Does Matt. 16:18 make any sense if the Church fell into errors?

I say trust the bible and not mens tradition. I say trust in Jesus Christ and not in religion. I've been saying this all along. By my logic you would have to reject much of your traditions because they are un-biblical. You err each time you equate your church with the infallibility of God's Word.

Do you know why St. Peter was forgiven? It was because he didn't think he was infallible!! He repented and begged for forgiveness!!

 

[Scotth1960]

I noticed your signature and thought I would drop a line
If we follow the bishop as Jesus followed God wouldn't we be following a false God as we are following the bishop not Jesus himself?
If we followed the priesthood as the apostles and showed reverence to the deacons as I would the Word of God doesn't that make me put a man before myself to God as intercessor and why is this necesssary if I have the Word of God in writing?

In the last part of your signature it would seem that Ignatious of antioch is attempting to usurp the place of our Lord Jesus Christ when stating"Wherever the bishop appears let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is so is the Catholic church"
Ignatious was no saint nor was he an apostle this is why the reformation happened exactly because of unsound doctrine being brought forth perpetualy by men seeking to maintain power of an institution through edicts of false doctrine. Jesus's intent was that of a spiritual church on earth and yes we need teachers priests, preachers But the Word is Paramount and when we pay attention to the Words of God as given in the OT and the NT and Jesus and his apostles ONLY that we get the Truth of the Word all others are false doctrines and only ill can come of them this includes all and any texts written after John the apostle wrote Revelations. For there have been no true prophecies since His
The last four verses of the KJV bible are and I quote


18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Dear friend:
Christ said to St. Peter, "Feed My sheep." What is a bishop's role? To feed the flock, the sheep of Christ. What does the Scripture say about bishops? See 1 Timothy 3.
If Protestantism is true, every man is "his own bishop", in need of nothing, in need of no one else. If Protestantism is true, it questions the validity of James 5:16. The only man a Protestant needs to pray to God is himself. Because every man/woman/child is alone by himself/herself/themselves with God. It is difficult to see in extreme Protestantism why we even need the Bible at all, because all one needs, in the end, in the logical extension of Protestantism, is oneself and God. This is virtually what happens in Quakerism, with their doctrine of the "inner life". Although most Quakers in practice do not deny the need for the Holy Scriptures. But every Protestant denomination does, invariably, to one extent or another, misinterpret the Bible in one way or another. God save us all. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

You have the wrong view of Matthew 16:18. You don't know what Christs church is. You are using circular reasoning that makes NO SENSE. Your church HAS made mistakes and yet Matthew 16:18 still remains true. You are using the same sleight of hand that your church uses to assume the authority that only Jesus Christ has.

[/b]

I say trust the bible and not mens tradition. I say trust in Jesus Christ and not in religion. I've been saying this all along. By my logic you would have to reject much of your traditions because they are un-biblical. You err each time you equate your church with the infallibility of God's Word.

Do you know why St. Peter was forgiven? It was because he didn't think he was infallible!! He repented and begged for forgiveness!!

Dear Grandpa,
Isn't a person who repents and begs for forgiveness infallibly forgiven by Christ? As long as a person continues in faith, he has confidence with God, that God will continue to have mercy on him. While 100 percent certainty of salvation is not given to any person, a sinner who repents and believes in Christ, receives the sacraments, and has good works, can be confident of Christ's mercy upon him (Titus 3:5).
PS I don't err. I don't equate my church with the infallibility of God's Word. God's Word equates the Church Christ founded with the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
You deny the infallibility of 1 Tim. 3:15, which proves the Church is infallible because the NT says so!
So, it's not me who is denying the meaning of Scripture. You use the Bible to try and exclude the Church; I say the Church is said to be the basis of God's Truth according to 1 Tim. 3:15.
God bless you. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Strangelove]

Dear Strangelove, So explain to me whether or notyou think Matthew 16:18 proves the later Church erred? Explain to me how there can be no Church such that the gates of hell will not prevail against Her? Explain to me why you don't believe Matthew 16:18, and only the NT is infallible, but you don't believe the infallible promise of the infallible Christ in the infallible verse Matthew 16:18 in the infallible NT?
God bless you. In Erie Scott H.
PS Can you not do better than to speak against me, instead of trying to be against everything, to be for something? And why do you assume a critical attitude toward me? I am not at all critical of you in any way whatsoever. I only question your words when they or illogical or your practice when it is unbiblical.

Stop waffling and defend your talking to dead people thing.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove, I am not attempting to have the saints communicate with me. Only the saints who are alive on earth right now.

This is a bald faced LIE. You ask BASIL for his prayers!

Like you could be a saint, too. When Christ has mercy on you.
How can the 24 elders not hear the prayers of those living on earth? Don't you understand the communion of saints is not limited only to those on earth? What verse says the communion of saints is limited to those on earth? Chapter and verse, please!
In Erie PA Scott H.
PS You don't know if Basil and Irenaeus are in heaven. That doesn't prove that no one can know that they are in heaven.

WHO knows they are in heaven??? You tell me Scotty.

 

[Muskokaman]

Dear friend:
Christ said to St. Peter, "Feed My sheep." What is a bishop's role? To feed the flock, the sheep of Christ. What does the Scripture say about bishops? See 1 Timothy 3.
If Protestantism is true, every man is "his own bishop", in need of nothing, in need of no one else. If Protestantism is true, it questions the validity of James 5:16. The only man a Protestant needs to pray to God is himself. Because every man/woman/child is alone by himself/herself/themselves with God. It is difficult to see in extreme Protestantism why we even need the Bible at all, because all one needs, in the end, in the logical extension of Protestantism, is oneself and God. This is virtually what happens in Quakerism, with their doctrine of the "inner life". Although most Quakers in practice do not deny the need for the Holy Scriptures. But every Protestant denomination does, invariably, to one extent or another, misinterpret the Bible in one way or another. God save us all. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Dear Brother
What makes you think the bishop doesn't need and intercessor even he has to pray for himself just as you have to pray for yourself I.E. individualism
Give a man a fish he eats for a day Teach man to fish he eats for life.
Why depend on the Word for a day when You can depend on it for life?
The logical extension of Protestantism is not self at all this is where you err.
It is the self taking the scripture (the true scripture) verbatum as it was given over 1900 years ago
not allowing thy self to be corrupted with the victuals and traditions concieved by men since that time.
As for misinterpretation of the bible and denominational fracture this only occurs when men invaribly seek to gain some authority or acknowledgement (power and glory) from those that they serve while in their earthly realm or after.
This is why sola scriptura is paramount and if your heart is in the right place as a teacher of the faith of Christ then the truth of the Word is as important as your faith in it. This is not to say ignore your teachers but learn the word for yourself, ask questions if need be debate meanings if need be but always, always refer back to the scriptures for edification rather than relying on traditions, victuals or the sayso of a teacher as the prime authority.
So far as our Quaker brethren are concerned and their confederates mennonites, hutterites generally speaking they refer to scripture more than most I know. My sister in law is of the Mennonnites so I'm not talking out of my hat here.
Anyways dear brother perhaps you will give these words some thought and may your heart be touched as to see those things you need to see.

Selah