The book of Job, my favorite book.

[tttallison]

This does not change the conclusion of the story when God clearly states that Eliphaz and friends have not spoken rightly about God. You might even say, they spoke without any substance, any real connection to their words.

Consider Isaiah 29:13 in light of Eliphaz, "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

So what if Eliphaz said what was "right"? In the end, he was wrong. That was God's conclusion. Also, satan is recorded as quoting Scripture, too, so...

What is speaking right about God? Isn't this about salvation? Isn't it when we confess our sins to Him, and put on his righteousness? Job did not do that until the 42 chapter. We know, prior to that, Job spoke without knowledge.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Where does it say that God's grand design was to use satan as His tool? I understand that is your interpretation, but where does it say that?

The context makes it clear. Everything that satan did was under God's control. I.e. you CAN do this, but you CAN'T DO THAT.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Also, look at 2:3, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

Sorry, your conclusion is in blatant opposition to the text.

Only according to your private Interpretation/Paradigm

 

[jacko]

Job was hardcore, seriously, who can suffer that much and still remain faithful. Maybe he was 1 or 2 of 50 billion since the beginning of time. (excluding Jesus).

 

[christophernyc]

Only according to your private Interpretation/Paradigm

The discrepancy highlighted is not a private interpretation. You stated God was after two things in allowing Job to suffer, namely 1) personal pride, and 2) self-reliance on his own power. That is what you stated. So God would have a *cause* and a *reason* to let Job suffer, right? Needing Job to suffer for his pride and self-reliance (you say) would be a *cause* for his suffering. And yet, God plainly states that satan incited God to make Job suffer *without* cause. It can't be both. These ideas are completely contradictory. That's not an opinion. It's in the text.

 

[christophernyc]

The context makes it clear. Everything that satan did was under God's control. I.e. you CAN do this, but you CAN'T DO THAT.

Totally agree with you here.

 

[christophernyc]

What is speaking right about God? Isn't this about salvation? Isn't it when we confess our sins to Him, and put on his righteousness? Job did not do that until the 42 chapter. We know, prior to that, Job spoke without knowledge.

Of course confessing our sins is right in the eyes of God. Yes. But it seems you may be trying to imply Job's confession at the end is what God is referring to when he says Job spoke rightly about Him. But again, the comparison God provides is between what Job says and what Job's friends say. If you are comparing those two categories of speeches, they are the ones that appear in chapters 4 - 31. So it is those speeches God is referring to when He says Job spoke rightly about Him.

Yes, Job spoke without knowledge. That is a fact. However, as mentioned in a previous reply, that does not mean Job was wrong in what he said. Is it difficult to hear some of Job's words? For me, yes. But to accuse him of being wrong? What does God say?

I like the assessment of others that liken this story to a court case. Yes, Job is taking God to court and putting Him on trial. Job wants answers. He wants to know what happened to his *relationship* with God. During the trial, Job does not give up on wanting God, seeking God, and praying to God. Keeping the court analogy, when Job finally sees God, he effectively says, "I drop my case. I withdraw my complaint." God effectively askes Job if he would like to keep pressing charges against Him (God) and convict Him, but Job says no. Despite the fact that Job has legitimate reason to bring his complaint (again, he did nothing to deserve the suffering in the first place) he is relieved because his *relationship* with God is restored. Job does not need specific answers anymore because he has the one thing he cared about the most: his connection with God.

Job is the proof that satan was wrong. Job didn't only obey God because of the benefits. Job wanted God because he wanted God. He wanted God for Himself - not the things he would get from it.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

The discrepancy highlighted is not a private interpretation. You stated God was after two things in allowing Job to suffer, namely 1) personal pride, and 2) self-reliance on his own power. That is what you stated.

True statement. God did what God had to do to produce the realization in Job of what his latent Spiritual issues were.

So God would have a *cause* and a *reason* to let Job suffer, right? Needing Job to suffer for his pride and self-reliance (you say) would be a *cause* for his suffering. And yet, God plainly states that satan incited God to make Job suffer *without* cause. It can't be both. These ideas are completely contradictory. That's not an opinion. It's in the text.

So then pay attention to the text!!!! Who STARTED the ball rolling?? was it satan or God??? God's "Cause"/"Reason" was to make Job Aware of his issues, so that he (Job) could REPENT of them. and the process worked perfectly, as recorded at Job 42:6.

Job wound up understanding things that he'd been blind to, and was brought to repentance, as noted.

And THEN there was restoration greater than his previous situation.

The message to ME is the TRUTH of Romans 8:28,29. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR MY GOOD - and "My Good" is defined in V29 - to conform me to the image of Jesus.

It's been said that "if necessary, God will HURT YOU TERRIBLY, but He will never HARM you". everything He does has a redemptive purpose.

 

[Magenta]

For Jesus, suffering was necessary to qualify as the servant of God and Savior of mankind.

During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears
to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. Although
He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. And having been made perfect,
He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:7-9

 

[Magenta]

I do see the parallels between Job and Christ. But I never see suffering as innocent, but necessary. For Jesus, suffering was necessary to qualify as the servant of God and Savior of mankind. For men, suffering is necessary for perfection and a greater knowledge and experience of God. So while the book of Job has much to say about suffering, ultimately God does not explain Himself to Job. God is sovereign.
But more than this, God is good. Thus, anything that befalls God's people is either intended for good or works for their good. Such is the testimony of scripture throughout. From the statement of Joseph concerning his plight to the words of the Apostle in Romans 8, we find the commendation of suffering. In fact, James tells us to count it all joy.
While Job began with such an approach, his later behavior showed a preference for vindication rather than a zeal for God's glory. It's not that I don't believe Job performed well under increasing duress. I find his behavior remarkable. I have crumbled under far lesser duress. But I do see his focus slowly change as time wanes on. Far from full throated worship...1:21...and immovable faith...13:15, Job becomes more concerned with himself and his vindication, than focusing on the glory of God.
God is brilliant in both His vindication of Job and His rebuke of Job. It is said of God that He is the only One who can both humble a man without harming him, and exalt a man without flattering him. I think this a very apt description of what transpires with Job.

Hebrews 5:7-9
Thank you for the inspiration, Cameron! I hope you and yours are well .

 

[daisyseesthesun]

God had no reason to explain Elihu to Job. It was by Job's request that Elihu appeared. Doesn't it appear strange to you that no one could make a reply to Elihu, and that Elihu was given six chapters to himself. Job twice requested a man of clay to be mediator between God and himself. Job's reasoning was that God would not be just. That God would laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

The two requests of Job are found in Job 9:32-35 Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

AND

Job 13:19-22 Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Notice that Job first requests a mediator. Then Job asks God to take his hand away. Then he asks God to not make him afraid. Then if God does this Job says he will speak. (Can you see that these two requests are very similar.)

Then enters Elihu, and he says, Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

In a court of Law this would be the judge ordering the defendant to stand up and make a plea.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it.)

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. (We should now understand why Job was a young man. A young man would put no fear in Job. Elihu has fulfilled the requests of Job in order for him to make his plea.)

Thank you for replying to this thread.

God cursed jobs friend for talking wrongly about him. I wouldnt do if i were you.