The book of Job, my favorite book.

[tttallison]

This does not change the conclusion of the story when God clearly states that Eliphaz and friends have not spoken rightly about God. You might even say, they spoke without any substance, any real connection to their words.

Consider Isaiah 29:13 in light of Eliphaz, "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

So what if Eliphaz said what was "right"? In the end, he was wrong. That was God's conclusion. Also, satan is recorded as quoting Scripture, too, so...

What is speaking right about God? Isn't this about salvation? Isn't it when we confess our sins to Him, and put on his righteousness? Job did not do that until the 42 chapter. We know, prior to that, Job spoke without knowledge.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Where does it say that God's grand design was to use satan as His tool? I understand that is your interpretation, but where does it say that?

The context makes it clear. Everything that satan did was under God's control. I.e. you CAN do this, but you CAN'T DO THAT.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Also, look at 2:3, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

Sorry, your conclusion is in blatant opposition to the text.

Only according to your private Interpretation/Paradigm

 

[jacko]

Job was hardcore, seriously, who can suffer that much and still remain faithful. Maybe he was 1 or 2 of 50 billion since the beginning of time. (excluding Jesus).

 

[christophernyc]

Only according to your private Interpretation/Paradigm

The discrepancy highlighted is not a private interpretation. You stated God was after two things in allowing Job to suffer, namely 1) personal pride, and 2) self-reliance on his own power. That is what you stated. So God would have a *cause* and a *reason* to let Job suffer, right? Needing Job to suffer for his pride and self-reliance (you say) would be a *cause* for his suffering. And yet, God plainly states that satan incited God to make Job suffer *without* cause. It can't be both. These ideas are completely contradictory. That's not an opinion. It's in the text.

 

[christophernyc]

The context makes it clear. Everything that satan did was under God's control. I.e. you CAN do this, but you CAN'T DO THAT.

Totally agree with you here.

 

[christophernyc]

What is speaking right about God? Isn't this about salvation? Isn't it when we confess our sins to Him, and put on his righteousness? Job did not do that until the 42 chapter. We know, prior to that, Job spoke without knowledge.

Of course confessing our sins is right in the eyes of God. Yes. But it seems you may be trying to imply Job's confession at the end is what God is referring to when he says Job spoke rightly about Him. But again, the comparison God provides is between what Job says and what Job's friends say. If you are comparing those two categories of speeches, they are the ones that appear in chapters 4 - 31. So it is those speeches God is referring to when He says Job spoke rightly about Him.

Yes, Job spoke without knowledge. That is a fact. However, as mentioned in a previous reply, that does not mean Job was wrong in what he said. Is it difficult to hear some of Job's words? For me, yes. But to accuse him of being wrong? What does God say?

I like the assessment of others that liken this story to a court case. Yes, Job is taking God to court and putting Him on trial. Job wants answers. He wants to know what happened to his *relationship* with God. During the trial, Job does not give up on wanting God, seeking God, and praying to God. Keeping the court analogy, when Job finally sees God, he effectively says, "I drop my case. I withdraw my complaint." God effectively askes Job if he would like to keep pressing charges against Him (God) and convict Him, but Job says no. Despite the fact that Job has legitimate reason to bring his complaint (again, he did nothing to deserve the suffering in the first place) he is relieved because his *relationship* with God is restored. Job does not need specific answers anymore because he has the one thing he cared about the most: his connection with God.

Job is the proof that satan was wrong. Job didn't only obey God because of the benefits. Job wanted God because he wanted God. He wanted God for Himself - not the things he would get from it.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

The discrepancy highlighted is not a private interpretation. You stated God was after two things in allowing Job to suffer, namely 1) personal pride, and 2) self-reliance on his own power. That is what you stated.

True statement. God did what God had to do to produce the realization in Job of what his latent Spiritual issues were.

So God would have a *cause* and a *reason* to let Job suffer, right? Needing Job to suffer for his pride and self-reliance (you say) would be a *cause* for his suffering. And yet, God plainly states that satan incited God to make Job suffer *without* cause. It can't be both. These ideas are completely contradictory. That's not an opinion. It's in the text.

So then pay attention to the text!!!! Who STARTED the ball rolling?? was it satan or God??? God's "Cause"/"Reason" was to make Job Aware of his issues, so that he (Job) could REPENT of them. and the process worked perfectly, as recorded at Job 42:6.

Job wound up understanding things that he'd been blind to, and was brought to repentance, as noted.

And THEN there was restoration greater than his previous situation.

The message to ME is the TRUTH of Romans 8:28,29. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR MY GOOD - and "My Good" is defined in V29 - to conform me to the image of Jesus.

It's been said that "if necessary, God will HURT YOU TERRIBLY, but He will never HARM you". everything He does has a redemptive purpose.

 

[Magenta]

For Jesus, suffering was necessary to qualify as the servant of God and Savior of mankind.

During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears
to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. Although
He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. And having been made perfect,
He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:7-9

 

[Magenta]

I do see the parallels between Job and Christ. But I never see suffering as innocent, but necessary. For Jesus, suffering was necessary to qualify as the servant of God and Savior of mankind. For men, suffering is necessary for perfection and a greater knowledge and experience of God. So while the book of Job has much to say about suffering, ultimately God does not explain Himself to Job. God is sovereign.
But more than this, God is good. Thus, anything that befalls God's people is either intended for good or works for their good. Such is the testimony of scripture throughout. From the statement of Joseph concerning his plight to the words of the Apostle in Romans 8, we find the commendation of suffering. In fact, James tells us to count it all joy.
While Job began with such an approach, his later behavior showed a preference for vindication rather than a zeal for God's glory. It's not that I don't believe Job performed well under increasing duress. I find his behavior remarkable. I have crumbled under far lesser duress. But I do see his focus slowly change as time wanes on. Far from full throated worship...1:21...and immovable faith...13:15, Job becomes more concerned with himself and his vindication, than focusing on the glory of God.
God is brilliant in both His vindication of Job and His rebuke of Job. It is said of God that He is the only One who can both humble a man without harming him, and exalt a man without flattering him. I think this a very apt description of what transpires with Job.

Hebrews 5:7-9
Thank you for the inspiration, Cameron! I hope you and yours are well .

 

[daisyseesthesun]

God had no reason to explain Elihu to Job. It was by Job's request that Elihu appeared. Doesn't it appear strange to you that no one could make a reply to Elihu, and that Elihu was given six chapters to himself. Job twice requested a man of clay to be mediator between God and himself. Job's reasoning was that God would not be just. That God would laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

The two requests of Job are found in Job 9:32-35 Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

AND

Job 13:19-22 Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Notice that Job first requests a mediator. Then Job asks God to take his hand away. Then he asks God to not make him afraid. Then if God does this Job says he will speak. (Can you see that these two requests are very similar.)

Then enters Elihu, and he says, Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

In a court of Law this would be the judge ordering the defendant to stand up and make a plea.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it.)

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. (We should now understand why Job was a young man. A young man would put no fear in Job. Elihu has fulfilled the requests of Job in order for him to make his plea.)

Thank you for replying to this thread.

God cursed jobs friend for talking wrongly about him. I wouldnt do if i were you.

 

[tttallison]

God cursed jobs friend for talking wrongly about him. I wouldnt do if i were you.

It wasn't what they said, but what they didn't say that they were held accountable. When they repented God accepted all four of them.

 

[Cameron143]

Hebrews 5:7-9
Thank you for the inspiration, Cameron! I hope you and yours are well .

God is your inspiration. This time He was gracious enough to include me.
We are always well, but thanks for your well-wishes. Hope all is well with you.

 

[christophernyc]

True statement. God did what God had to do to produce the realization in Job of what his latent Spiritual issues were.



So then pay attention to the text!!!! Who STARTED the ball rolling?? was it satan or God??? God's "Cause"/"Reason" was to make Job Aware of his issues, so that he (Job) could REPENT of them. and the process worked perfectly, as recorded at Job 42:6.

Job wound up understanding things that he'd been blind to, and was brought to repentance, as noted.

And THEN there was restoration greater than his previous situation.

The message to ME is the TRUTH of Romans 8:28,29. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR MY GOOD - and "My Good" is defined in V29 - to conform me to the image of Jesus.

It's been said that "if necessary, God will HURT YOU TERRIBLY, but He will never HARM you". everything He does has a redemptive purpose.

Totally agree, of course, that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. And I would agree that is also the case in Job's life. Job does grow and develop and come to a whole new level of understanding at the end of this story. Yes. All of that is true.

However, I cannot agree with the premise you are laying out for this story. It seems you are committed to this idea that God had a *cause* to let Job suffer. (Again, I believe God used Job's suffering for good ultimately.) But what we read in the story is that God Himself acknowledges that letting Job suffer was *without cause*. These ideas are incompatible.

Also, how is someone full of pride and self-reliance also blameless? If Job is full of pride and self-reliance, why doesn't God say that at the beginning of the story?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Totally agree, of course, that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. And I would agree that is also the case in Job's life. Job does grow and develop and come to a whole new level of understanding at the end of this story. Yes. All of that is true.

However, I cannot agree with the premise you are laying out for this story. It seems you are committed to this idea that God had a *cause* to let Job suffer. (Again, I believe God used Job's suffering for good ultimately.) But what we read in the story is that God Himself acknowledges that letting Job suffer was *without cause*. These ideas are incompatible.

Also, how is someone full of pride and self-reliance also blameless? If Job is full of pride and self-reliance, why doesn't God say that at the beginning of the story?

So as far as you're concerned the whole thing was a "Contest" between God and satan, and job was nothing but a victim????

 

[daisyseesthesun]

It wasn't what they said, but what they didn't say that they were held accountable. When they repented God accepted all four of them.

People alway assume God didnt favor Job. But job was favored what other person did God put so much trust in except his son jesus? He asked job to pray for his friend because he would not accept them if not for job.


"And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering(and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.)

 

[christophernyc]

I love reading yours and everyone else's thoughts on Job as funnily enough it is also one of my favourite books of the bible.

I do read it from a slightly different perspective, I see Job as more deeply revealing Christ to us, I think people think the Lord as a wee bit mechanical or going through the rotes with His life on earth from His birth to the cross. Yet I see Him as anything but. Just from the point of view there is no record of how the Lord is thinking about things in the gospel accounts. To me Job is a great way to reveal how the Lord thinks.

For example from reading Job and seeing his anguish and sufferings we get an insight to the Lords anguish and sufferings, When the Lords own denied Him(Looking at you Peter) when the sheep fled, when His own family distanced themselves, we don't really get much insight to the Lords thinking. Yet reading Job I see the Lord in turmoil, I see Him experiencing real human emotions, Which means I see Him as being able to relate to us fully.

For example I read Job ch 16 in the same way as I read Isa 53, and relate it to the Lord going to the cross, Job 16:1 then Job(Jesus) answered and said:

This is a massive subject and awesome book, for me when I see and understand the Lord literally speaking to us here, it makes me feel like I am getting to know Jesus not just as God, who came and died for my sins, but as a person with real emotions and feelings and I so want to know him more and be His personal friend, and I talk to him more about my problems as He can totally understand them, for he has truly experienced what it is like to be human. To me its forming a more real relationship.

This might sound weird so I wont go into it, but even when God said to Satan "have you considered my servant Job that there is none like him", He was also actually pointing everyone to consider Jesus.

So I also see God challenging Satan, with "have you considered my Son, Jesus that there is none like Him."

Which sets the theme for the book of Job, right through to the last chapter of Job, when Job was restored and doubly blessed.

To me the person of Job is a wonderful picture of our Jesus our savior, not just as God come in the flesh but as a man and friend.

BINGO!! Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I love how you laid all of this out. I wholeheartedly agree with you that one of the purposes of the Book of Job is to reveal Jesus to us, specifically Jesus the suffering servant like in Isaiah 53. It is wonderful how you went on to explain how we don't necessarily see the deep emotions that Jesus must have been feeling during his Passion and otherwise. Job is a clear way for us to understand Jesus in a deeper way.

I have brought up the parallel a couple of times in this thread (albeit, I would like to do more). But some want to immediately correct the idea and say that Job is not Jesus. Of course, in fact, they are right - Job is not literally Jesus and nobody in their right mind would believe that. The point, however, is that Job's experience is a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ and what he would suffer. The big difference, of course, Jesus died from the suffering but Job did not die in his suffering.

One of the biggest parallels I see between Job and Jesus is the loss of connection with God. Job is repeatedly crying out, asking where God is in this ordeal and deeply wanting to connect with Him again. Even if Job is in the wrong, he does not care. He wants God to at least tell him that - but many times Job only experiences silence from God. This reminds me so much of when Jesus was on the Cross and He cries out to God, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" Job felt abandoned by God just like Jesus felt abandoned by God. Ultimately, we know God produces salvation in both instances.

Thank you again for what you wrote! I will fan that flame every time.

 

[christophernyc]

So as far as you're concerned the whole thing was a "Contest" between God and satan, and job was nothing but a victim????

No, I would not frame it like that at all. Job was a very unique person, and his story is a very unique one. I don't think God was just randomly picking on Job and using him simply like some pawn. God knew Job's character intimately, and would not have allowed Job to suffer like this if he was going to fail, I believe. The rest of the story bears that out. Look at God bragging about Job when He says, "There is none like him in the earth..." (1:8).

You expressed that God uses satan as his tool to ultimately correct Job. I guess I would frame it instead that God uses His best servant, Job, to defeat satan and his satan's lie that Job's relationship with God is merely transactional.

No, Job is not a victim. He suffers undeservedly for this ordeal, but he ultimately benefits from it all. For starters, Job gets to see God with his own eyes! Amazing. He is also given double of everything he lost. I think Job also comes to a much deeper understanding of God and of his relationship with God. I think Job is given the "spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him [God]" like Paul prayed for the Ephesians in Ephesians 1:17.

 

[christophernyc]

Elihu.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I think understanding the character of Elihu is the key to understanding this story as a whole. From what I have seen here (and in other studies) is that opinions about Elihu typically fall into one of three categories. (I am totally open to other opinions, I'm just relaying what I have seen myself.)
1. Elihu presents a different argument than the three friends, but ultimately does not add anything helpful to the conversation.
2. Elihu is the key! He nails exactly what Job's problem is and has this whole ordeal all figured out. He is the wisest of the bunch, and could even be an angel, perhaps even a Messianic figure come to bring the ultimate revelation!
3. Elihu is a false prophet. A fake "christ", and nothing but an accuser of the brethren. (This is probably the least popular view.)

Before I present a question about Elihu (there are many), I think it may be helpful to notice his arrival in this story. We know he has been listening to Job and his friends argue, but the reader is not aware of him until chapter 32. It makes sense that at this point in the book the reader is worn out from all of the arguing. So when Elihu steps in and says something different, it is probably natural for the reader to feel some relief. They might think, "Finally! Something new!" As a result, the reader may be more open to what Elihu has to say (since the other arguments have been exhausted.)

For myself, I was on the fence about Elihu. I thought, no he's right. Then I thought, maybe he's wrong? I went back and forth, wrestling with this very enigmatic character. But it wasn't until I really looked at what he was saying that the lights went on. It became very clear for me, and once I chose a position, there was nothing but confirmation for me about his role in the story.

Long intro (sorry!) but thought it was needful to set up. So here is my first question regarding Elihu. It says explicitly four times that Elihu is angry or burning with anger. Mentioning this four times is a big deal. For those in support of Elihu my question is: when you read Elihu's words, are you factoring in how angry he is? And, have you ever been counseled by someone who is burning with anger? If so, how did it make you feel? Was their anger helpful to you? Did it help bring you closer to God?

Second question. In Job 34:4 Elihu says, "Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good." For the supporters of Elihu, does this sound right to you? Know among ourselves what is good? Job reaches outside of himself and prays to God for understanding, but Elihu is proposing choosing judgment on their own. Kinda sounds like Judges 21:25 where it says the people did what is right in their own eyes.

Thoughts?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I would frame it instead that God uses His best servant, Job, to defeat satan

So to you, it's still just a wager between God and satan, and Job's "profit" from it is merely incidental - God had no redemptive purpose in what He started.
Make no mistake - GOD STARTED the whole process, not satan, and every step along the way was under God's control.