Gods will vs mans free will

[Lafftur]

But what happens in the real world when we run into people who are incompetent to make choices on their own? Don't family members or close friends usually step up to help such helpless people out of their unenviable situation? And when such people do help, are they not manifesting love with their compassionate choice? Isn't it loving to help those who are incapable of making right, rational choices?

The ancient descendants of Abraham in Egypt for the most part had no love for God; for over the four centuries that they had been held captive by various Pharaohs, they evidently turned as pagan as their captors and became idol worshipers. Yet, God loved them and rescued them in spite of their sins and lack of love for him. God took that initiative on behalf of his covenant people -- a people who, again for the most part, had no love for God.

Yes, God greatly desires that his love be reciprocated but what if that could only be accomplished by the power of God's sovereign, effectual grace? Look what Paul wrote for example:

1 Tim 1:14
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
NIV

And this is the same apostle who also wrote:

Rom 5:-5
5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
NIV

Or as John put it:

1 John 4:19
19 We love because he first loved us.
NIV

What if fallen mankind, who has no heart for God, can only love God through the gift of his Holy Spirit who himself is love? And when God gives this precious gift to his chosen people who are powerless to love him due to their evil hearts, should we unjustly accuse God of forcing us to love him? Or accuse Him of making mere robots out of us? Or should we be eternally thankful that he has given his people new hearts that enables us to make those right, loving choices?

Just my 2-1/2 cents worth...

No one is powerless to choose to love. Even those that are evil know how to give good gifts to their children…

I understand some people are mentally handicapped but they fall under a different accountability for their choices. I’m speaking of those that have mental capacity and can reason between life and death, good and evil, right and wrong.

To love is a choice that everyone has the power and authority to choose to do. God has NEVER forced anyone to love Him.

It’s God’s goodness and kindness that leads a person to repent… Jesus Christ first loved us… He chose to love us.

In response to His love for us, we can choose to love Him back or not to love Him… it is each individual’s God given and God protected right… no one makes this choice for us, not even God… because if God made the choice for us, He would end up with a bunch of robots.

 

[PaulThomson]

And you're assuming that God really didn't call Job to Satan's attention, so now you're all set to perform magical feats of eisegesis?

And pray tell, what was God's intention behind this:

Job 1:8-12
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
NIV

Would Satan been able to afflict Job apart from seeking God's permission (v.11)? Or was the devil just being courteous to God and deferring to his Lordship?

And why did God grant Satan his request (v.12)? Why did God suddenly lift his protective hedge from around Job (vv. 9-10)?

Satan tried to goad God into Himself afflicting Job. God would not do that. Satan was claiming the the only reason Job was willingly serving God was because God was protecting him from Satan, who wanted to steal, kill and destroy Job. God allowed Satan to assail Job to show Satan that God could secure the willing allegiance of a righteous man even without God having to cotton wool him in constant physical blessings. Knowing God will keep a righteous man trusting God. But saints going through deep adversity require a deeper knowledge of God to continue standing strong in faith, as God gave to Job to steady him.

Satan could have afflicted Job without seeking God's permission, if he could have stopped Job from trusting in God's protection and blessing. By Job's faith in God had been too strong and constant for Satan to gain entry. Job's refusal to rebel against God despite his suffering was a rebuke to Satan who had not been suffering at all, when he rebelled against God.

 

[LifelongLearner]

It struck me with some force a year ago summer time that I was almost seventy. Heh, it sounded so old! I was not yet 69 then, but that has come and gone, now, too. I was laid off with the COVID closures mid March of '20, after turning 65 and getting a cancer diagnosis, went through all my treatments: chemo, radiation, surgery, more chemo, another surgery, months and months and months of wound care, then a hernia repair... when my boss called me back to work! I said yes because otherwise I sit in my chair tinkering with my designs and am not nearly active enough... Hugs to you too and I hope you are feeling much better very soon! Have a cuppa with lemon and honey...

You've certainly kept your fire too Magenta, definitely didn't think you were 70 and glory! You've been through the wars me darling but looks like the big guy upstairs is watching out for you. Don't think the Lord minds us using affectionate terms for him, least i hope not

Thanks for the concern too and wow you're still in employment after all you've been through. A backbone of steel for sure, good on you lassie! Feeling a lot better but still tiredish, think i'll be up to some posting tomorrow, this forum has been really lively. God's blessings and big hugs to you, all that's good for now.

 

[Rufus]

You're ignoring chapter 38 and 39, 71 verses of immediate context, which catalogues the extensive ignorance and impotence of Job on many issues, to which God then invites Job to respond in v. 40:1 saying: "Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct Him? He that reproves God, let Him answer it." What is the "it" referred to here? It can only be the 71 verses where God asks Job a series of questions.

38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge. Gird up now your lions like a man. For I will demand of you, and you answer Me.
Where were you...? Who has laid...? Or who has stretched out...? Who has laid...? Or who has stretched...? Whereupon are...? Or who laid...? Or who shut up ...? Have you commanded... and caused....? Have you entered...? Or have you walked...? etc. etc. Question after question.

But you ignore all of these questions which God has said in 38:1 that He will ask and will demand Job answer. Instead you frame the response of Job by taking his two verse response, ""Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I will lay my hand on my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; yes twice, but I will proceed no further," and reading into it a confession of LOUPI Omni-faceted Imperfection.

However, God continues on to ask Job questions, to plumb the depths of his ignorance and impotence, not the depth of his moral degeneration.

40: 6 Then answered the LORD to Job out of the whirlwind, and said, "Gird up your loins now like a man. I will demand of you, and you declare to me. Will you also disannul (i.e. absolutely deny) My justice? Will you condemn Me that you may be righteous? Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like Him? Deck yourself now in with majesty and excellency, and array yoiurself with glory and beauty... And continues on for another 48 verses challenging Job's ignorance and impotence.

So the immediate context of the 71 preceding verses and the 58 subsequent verses are God challenging Job's ignorance and impotence, you ignore and latch on to a few words in Job's embarrassed response, as if those are what God was aiming to elicit from Job, and they prove all men suffer from Omni-faceted Imperfection. You are clutching at what look to you like two LOUPI straws in a sea of verses that are about Job's folly in judging God from Job's position of abject ignorance and impotence.

Job was commended for having spoken rightly AFTER his humble confession of chapters 40 and 42. That in no way validates the ignorant professions he had been spouting PREVIOUSLY in chapters 3-31, for which God reproved him in chapters 38-41, and which you are leaning on because they sound compatible with LOUPI.

You totally miss the point to God's dialogue with Job! God asks all those RHETORICAL creation-based questions to Job beginning in chapter 38 to highlight Job's ignorance in wanting to confront God about his afflictions. And God also wanted to accentuate Job's futility and foolhardiness in wanting to contend with the Almighty. Job wanted to put God on trial, as it were, for the afflictions he suffered. Imagine that! He wanted to put an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful, all-holy, all-righteous God on the witness stand. You keep taking your eye off 40:8, which was the very crux to Job's ignorance. What part of this verse don't you understand? Nowhere prior to chapter 38 will you find Job questioning God's wisdom, knowledge or power on any other topic other than Job's self-proclaimed righteousness. Job's misconceptions about his own self-righteousness and, therefore, God's justice was his sin.

You also keep ignoring God's commendation that he made about Job to Job's three buddies. Job must have gotten more than a few things right, according to 42:7-8 in order for God to endorse and approve his RIGHTEOUS servant's words.

 

[Rufus]

Satan tried to goad God into Himself afflicting Job. God would not do that. Satan was claiming the the only reason Job was willingly serving God was because God was protecting him from Satan, who wanted to steal, kill and destroy Job. God allowed Satan to assail Job to show Satan that God could secure the willing allegiance of a righteous man even without God having to cotton wool him in constant physical blessings. Knowing God will keep a righteous man trusting God. But saints going through deep adversity require a deeper knowledge of God to continue standing strong in faith, as God gave to Job to steady him.

Satan could have afflicted Job without seeking God's permission, if he could have stopped Job from trusting in God's protection and blessing. By Job's faith in God had been too strong and constant for Satan to gain entry. Job's refusal to rebel against God despite his suffering was a rebuke to Satan who had not been suffering at all, when he rebelled against God.

Oh I see. God takes a back seat to both the devil and Job -- the devil because he "could have stopped Job...." and to Job himself because Job was doing such a stellar, superb Job in persevering in his faith. What unmitigated theological rubbish! God is reduced to a spectator! Satan knew he could never touch Job without God's permission! That's why twice Satan basically told God, "but stretch forth YOUR hand...". That was his way of asking God for permission. Didn't Satan ask for permission to sift Peter like wheat, and God granted it to him?

 

[Rufus]

No one is powerless to choose to love. Even those that are evil know how to give good gifts to their children…

I understand some people are mentally handicapped but they fall under a different accountability for their choices. I’m speaking of those that have mental capacity and can reason between life and death, good and evil, right and wrong.

To love is a choice that everyone has the power and authority to choose to do. God has NEVER forced anyone to love Him.

It’s God’s goodness and kindness that leads a person to repent… Jesus Christ first loved us… He chose to love us.

In response to His love for us, we can choose to love Him back or not to love Him… it is each individual’s God given and God protected right… no one makes this choice for us, not even God… because if God made the choice for us, He would end up with a bunch of robots.

It's not so much about choosing to love as it is choosing who is the object of love. Unregenerate sinners are very capable of loving themselves, loving their children, loving money, loving the world, loving the darkness, etc. But loving God!? Not so much!
The unregenerate man's mind is hostile against God. All men in Adam naturally hate God and His Son because they love so many other things that they're not supposed to. The spiritually dead do not come into this world loving God!

If men had the power to love God with their heart, why would God need to give his elect a new heart? Or why even the gift of the Holy Spirit?

The analogy I made earlier is valid. In one case, you have the mentally incompetent who are helpless. And in case of sinners, you have people who are morally-spiritually incompetent, which means they would need to be rescued every bit as much as the mentally incompetent. The few passages I quoted earlier teach us that God's love is as effectual as his calling is! "We love BECAUSE He first loved us..."! None of us can love our Creator and Redeemer due to the evil disposition of our hearts.

Now...if you think that by God rescuing helpless people that turns us into robots, then there's not much I can say to convince you otherwise. But helpless and powerless is precisely how the bible portrays sinners. And helpless and powerless were the ancient Israelites in Egypt, which is why God "came down" to rescue them.

 

[montana123]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, My questions only relates to those who already know Christ.

A Spirit led person will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.

But the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right which is why there is warnings in the Bible about abstaining from sin or they are not right with God and there is no excuse.

We still have free will after we are saved for if not no saint would ever sin again and there would not be warnings in the Bible.

For people that think people do not have free will because God chooses who will be saved without their choice He said He wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, and He is not willing that any perish but all be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and all who want that salvation can have it.

If people do not have free will then God would of not created the earth for it would serve no purpose for whether He created them in the beginning with a glorified body or on earth it is the same situation.

The earth would be useless and why would God put people on earth with all the suffering if it serves no purpose.

If it is not free will why would God put people on earth if they are chosen for salvation in the beginning.

The only way the earth makes sense is if we have free will.

Also God's kingdom is true love but if it is not free will then it is not true love but robotic love.

So we have to have free will even when we are saved.

You can program your computer to say I love you but does it really love you, and you can program your computer to say I hate you and will you get mad and smash it.

Many are called but few are chosen.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

Not many noble, not many mighty, not many wise after the flesh is called.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth but He is not forcing them and when they get to the door of truth they have to decide to walk through it for His kingdom is love, but they would of not got to the door of truth if He did not intervene.

Many are called but few are chosen testifies of free will for if God chose who would be saved without their choice why would He call people that cannot be saved.

 

[PaulThomson]

You totally miss the point to God's dialogue with Job! God asks all those RHETORICAL creation-based questions to Job beginning in chapter 38 to highlight Job's ignorance in wanting to confront God about his afflictions. And God also wanted to accentuate Job's futility and foolhardiness in wanting to contend with the Almighty. Job wanted to put God on trial, as it were, for the afflictions he suffered. Imagine that! He wanted to put an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful, all-holy, all-righteous God on the witness stand. You keep taking your eye off 40:8, which was the very crux to Job's ignorance. What part of this verse don't you understand? Nowhere prior to chapter 38 will you find Job questioning God's wisdom, knowledge or power on any other topic other than Job's self-proclaimed righteousness. Job's misconceptions about his own self-righteousness and, therefore, God's justice was his sin.

You also keep ignoring God's commendation that he made about Job to Job's three buddies. Job must have gotten more than a few things right, according to 42:7-8 in order for God to endorse and approve his RIGHTEOUS servant's words.

You're a hoot, friend. You take ONE verse out of a case laid by God against Job that goes for 130 verses, and claim that that one verse is the crux of God's argument: 40:8 Will you completely negate My justice/judgment/ordinance/decision (MiShPaTh/krima), Will you condemn Me that you may be righteous?

God had decided (MiShPat) to allow Satan to attack Job at Satan's request, like Jesus allowed the legion of demons to enter that herd of pigs. We cannot assume that God deferring to the request of demons in two instances means that God plans and commands/decrees of the behaviour of all demons at all times. You are committing the false generalisation fallacy. Nor can we assume that permitting something implies approving of it.

 

[Lafftur]

It's not so much about choosing to love as it is choosing who is the object of love. Unregenerate sinners are very capable of loving themselves, loving their children, loving money, loving the world, loving the darkness, etc. But loving God!? Not so much!
The unregenerate man's mind is hostile against God. All men in Adam naturally hate God and His Son because they love so many other things that they're not supposed to. The spiritually dead do not come into this world loving God!

If men had the power to love God with their heart, why would God need to give his elect a new heart? Or why even the gift of the Holy Spirit?

The analogy I made earlier is valid. In one case, you have the mentally incompetent who are helpless. And in case of sinners, you have people who are morally-spiritually incompetent, which means they would need to be rescued every bit as much as the mentally incompetent. The few passages I quoted earlier teach us that God's love is as effectual as his calling is! "We love BECAUSE He first loved us..."! None of us can love our Creator and Redeemer due to the evil disposition of our hearts.

Now...if you think that by God rescuing helpless people that turns us into robots, then there's not much I can say to convince you otherwise. But helpless and powerless is precisely how the bible portrays sinners. And helpless and powerless were the ancient Israelites in Egypt, which is why God "came down" to rescue them.

God has created us with the capacity to love but we have to choose to do so.

God has given us individually power and authority over our own choices… to choose Life or to choose Death.

Satan put us under the curse of Death which took Life as a choice away from us.

Jesus Christ chose to come to this Earth, pay the penalty of Death for us, and restore the CHOICE of Life back to us.

No one is saved unless they CHOOSE Life by choosing to believe and receive Jesus Christ as Savior, Lord and King.

 

[PaulThomson]

Oh I see. God takes a back seat to both the devil and Job -- the devil because he "could have stopped Job...." and to Job himself because Job was doing such a stellar, superb Job in persevering in his faith. What unmitigated theological rubbish! God is reduced to a spectator! Satan knew he could never touch Job without God's permission! That's why twice Satan basically told God, "but stretch forth YOUR hand...". That was his way of asking God for permission. Didn't Satan ask for permission to sift Peter like wheat, and God granted it to him?

God is humble. God is love. God does not always demand His own way.

 

[Cameron143]

God is humble. God is love. God does not always demand His own way.

God always gets His way. He simply works with what is. Otherwise, how could He work all things for good for Christians?

 

[Magenta]

Now...if you think that by God rescuing helpless people that turns us into robots, then there's not much
I can say to convince you otherwise. But helpless and powerless is precisely how the bible portrays sinners.
And helpless and powerless were the ancient Israelites in Egypt, which is why God "came down" to rescue them.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10

 

[PaulThomson]

God always gets His way. He simply works with what is. Otherwise, how could He work all things for good for Christians?

According to the Bible, God does not always get His way. God is many times described in the pages of scripture as disappointed that what He wants does not happen. You seem to think that your metaphysical presuppositions about what a God you would consider worthy of worship should be like, trump how God describes Himself the Bible.

 

[Cameron143]

According to the Bible, God does not always get His way. God is many times described in the pages of scripture as disappointed that what He wants does not happen. You seem to think that your metaphysical presuppositions about what a God you would consider worthy of worship should be like, trump how God describes Himself the Bible.

You mean it appears for a time that God does not get His way. What God wills always comes to pass. That He allows for human and angelic agency doesn't keep His will from coming to pass. It actually allows God to do both good for those He loves, and frustrates the wicked. We are more than conquerors. God uses what Satan and others would use to harm us, and defeats them with it. In this way, He wins on our behalf employing the enemies methods and tools against them.

 

[Magenta]

You mean it appears for a time that God does not get His way. What God wills always comes to pass. That He allows for human and angelic agency doesn't keep His will from coming to pass. It actually allows God to do both good for those He loves, and frustrates the wicked. We are more than conquerors. God uses what Satan and others would use to harm us, and defeats them with it. In this way, He wins on our behalf employing the enemies methods and tools against them.

Haman, Mordechai, and Esther come to mind...

 

[HeIsHere]

God has created us with the capacity to love but we have to choose to do so.

We do have the moral capacity to love and we have the moral capability/capacity to respond, understand and believe in the promises offered by Christ Jesus (in His Word) and His offering of the gift of salvation to whomever will believe in Him for it.

Thank you for your clear response.. it is something when we have to state the obvious both seen in reality and in scripture.

 

[Magenta]

Satan put us under the curse of Death which took Life as a choice away from us.

Death entered the world as a result of man's sin. One man. His name was Adam.

 

[Magenta]

we have the moral capability/capacity to respond, understand and believe in the promises offered by Christ Jesus (in His Word) and His offering of the gift of salvation to whomever will believe in Him for it.

Biblical truth concerning the natural man.

 

[Rufus]

A Spirit led person will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.

But the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right which is why there is warnings in the Bible about abstaining from sin or they are not right with God and there is no excuse.

We still have free will after we are saved for if not no saint would ever sin again and there would not be warnings in the Bible.

For people that think people do not have free will because God chooses who will be saved without their choice He said He wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, and He is not willing that any perish but all be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and all who want that salvation can have it.

If people do not have free will then God would of not created the earth for it would serve no purpose for whether He created them in the beginning with a glorified body or on earth it is the same situation.

The earth would be useless and why would God put people on earth with all the suffering if it serves no purpose.

If it is not free will why would God put people on earth if they are chosen for salvation in the beginning.

The only way the earth makes sense is if we have free will.

Also God's kingdom is true love but if it is not free will then it is not true love but robotic love.

So we have to have free will even when we are saved.

You can program your computer to say I love you but does it really love you, and you can program your computer to say I hate you and will you get mad and smash it.

Many are called but few are chosen.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

Not many noble, not many mighty, not many wise after the flesh is called.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth but He is not forcing them and when they get to the door of truth they have to decide to walk through it for His kingdom is love, but they would of not got to the door of truth if He did not intervene.

Many are called but few are chosen testifies of free will for if God chose who would be saved without their choice why would He call people that cannot be saved.

Great man-centered theology you have.

When the ancient Israelites were enslaved to Pharaoh in Egypt, why didn't they just exercise their "free will" and walk out of Egypt since they complained so much about their predicament?

 

[Magenta]

Great man-centered theology you have.

When the ancient Israelites were enslaved to Pharaoh in Egypt, why didn't they just exercise their "free will" and walk out of Egypt since they complained so much about their predicament?

It is rather amazing how much wool gathering gets done in the name of "free will" isn't it?