Trinity

[Cameron143]

Cameron143 & Magenta, let me repost this for both of you.
Let me pose a question, please?
John 20:17 we read . . . Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Then we also read in John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Followed by Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

In Hebrews we read that God had to bear record or witness of Himself as there was no other to bear witness of or for Him, while Y'shua declares that there is someone else who can & does bear record/witness of his self as well as that he is going to him. So did God Lie or Did Y'shua? If they are both God then either they do or they do not have a witness which can be borne on their behalf.

What is a person's eternal fate if they do not repent and believe?

 

[Semachiah]

Neither lied. Again, being One doesn't mean being singular, but being the same.

Y'shua needed a witness to prove himself. God did & does not. If you contend that they are the same "person" then one must be lying.
Heb declared that God has no witness but John states that Y'shua called his witness.

 

[Cameron143]

You are misreading my words. We covered this before when you wanted to make the "Image" of God to actually be God.
Hebrews declares that he (Y'shua) is the "Representation" of God. That is NOT a declaration that he is God. You elect people to Represent you, but they are not actually you.

Express image means exact replica.

 

[Semachiah]

Express image means exact replica.

An Image is not the Exact thing. You see your image in a mirror. It looks like you, but it is not you.

 

[Cameron143]

Y'shua needed a witness to prove himself. God did & does not. If you contend that they are the same "person" then one must be lying.
Heb declared that God has no witness but John states that Y'shua called his witness.

I don't declare they are the same person. I claim they are the same.

 

[Cameron143]

An Image is not the Exact thing. You see your image in a mirror. It looks like you, but it is not you.

An image is not the same thing. The EXPRESS image is.

 

[Semachiah]

An Image is not the Exact thing. You see your image in a mirror. It looks like you, but it is not you.

Can God die? Of course not, but Y'shua did. If Y'shua is God then Nietzsche was correct when he declared, "God is dead!" I do not accept this! To be the Messiah, Y'shua had to be a man. He had to be able to Die for the sins of mankind. He could not be God because God is Immortal & cannot die.

 

[Semachiah]

I don't declare they are the same person. I claim they are the same.

Then you are claiming that they are the same "Essence" & the essence which we call God Cannot die, but the essence which we call Y'shua did die & had to die & is therefore not eternal &/or Immortal as eternal & immortal essences cannot die.

 

[Semachiah]

An image is not the same thing. The EXPRESS image is.

No it is not. The Greek word for the entire phrase, "the express image" is "charaktēr ".
It is defined as

1. the instrument used for engraving or carving
2. the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
   1. a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
   2. the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

Which "COPY" fits your liking?

 

[Cameron143]

Then you are claiming that they are the same "Essence" & the essence which we call God Cannot die, but the essence which we call Y'shua did die & had to die & is therefore not eternal &/or Immortal as eternal & immortal essences cannot die.

Only His flesh died; not His spirit.
What is the eternal estate of someone who does not repent and believe?

 

[Semachiah]

Only His flesh died; not His spirit.
What is the eternal estate of someone who does not repent and believe?

They die & are destroyed, but what does that have to do with the Trinity, which is what the thread is about. If someone does not accept Y'shua as the Eternal Paschal Sacrificial Lamb of God; as the Messiah or Christ, if you prefer, then they too would be destroyed.

 

[Cameron143]

No it is not. The Greek word for the entire phrase, "the express image" is "charaktēr ".
It is defined as

1. the instrument used for engraving or carving
2. the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
   1. a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
   2. the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

Which "COPY" fits your liking?

The Greek word for image is ikon. It's a copy. Charakter is THE EXACT COPY.

 

[Cameron143]

They die & are destroyed, but what does that have to do with the Trinity, which is what the thread is about. If someone does not accept Y'shua as the Eternal Paschal Sacrificial Lamb of God; as the Messiah or Christ, if you prefer, then they too would be destroyed.

I'm getting to it. How is Jesus' death made effectual for a believer?

 

[Semachiah]

The Greek word for image is ikon. It's a copy. Charakter is THE EXACT COPY.

I quoted for you directly from Strong's for the passage . . .
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
. . . and the Greek word used for this "Phrase" is charaktēr as I defined above. If you want to contend for eIkon then you need to find Charles Strong. No one has come up with a better overall concordance as of yet however.

 

[Semachiah]

I'm getting to it. How is Jesus' death made effectual for a believer?

Through the presence of God to resurrect it into an immortal being with an incorruptible body
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Cameron143]

I quoted for you directly from Strong's for the passage . . .
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
. . . and the Greek word used for this "Phrase" is charaktēr as I defined above. If you want to contend for eIkon then you need to find Charles Strong. No one has come up with a better overall concordance as of yet however.

I don't have to accept something that is wrong. I gave you the definition of 2 Greek words. You don't have to accept them, but perhaps your reason for not accepting them has something to do with your assumptions about Christ.
While I do think this has been a good discussion for some to understand why Jesus is indeed God or learn some defenses for the divinity of Christ, I don't believe there is anything I will share that will convince you.
Grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

Through the presence of God to resurrect it into an immortal being with an incorruptible body
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What exactly did Jesus do for mankind, in His life and death, that allows for reconciliation with God?

 

[Semachiah]

I don't have to accept something that is wrong. I gave you the definition of 2 Greek words. You don't have to accept them, but perhaps your reason for not accepting them has something to do with your assumptions about Christ.
While I do think this has been a good discussion for some to understand why Jesus is indeed God or learn some defenses for the divinity of Christ, I don't believe there is anything I will share that will convince you.
Grace and peace.

I can agree with you that there is not likely anything you can say that will change my position as I have been like you in my past & just like you I was a staunch defender of the trinity.

The definition you want is eikon & that is NOT what was used in Heb 1:3. In Heb 1:3 it was the "Phrase" is charaktēr. Look it up at BlueLetterBible.org if you prefer? If you are unwilling to see the truth in writing then it is a statement that you are unwilling to see the truth in the spirit either.

It has actually been enjoyable to not be contending with someone who is deeply critical.
Be blessed.

 

[Cameron143]

I can agree with you that there is not likely anything you can say that will change my position as I have been like you in my past & just like you I was a staunch defender of the trinity.

The definition you want is eikon & that is NOT what was used in Heb 1:3. In Heb 1:3 it was the "Phrase" is charaktēr. Look it up at BlueLetterBible.org if you prefer? If you are unwilling to see the truth in writing then it is a statement that you are unwilling to see the truth in the spirit either.

It has actually been enjoyable to not be contending with someone who is deeply critical.
Be blessed.

My purpose in showing you the definition of ikon was to show the difference between it and charakter. The definition you gave is actually the definition of ikon and not charakter, regardless of your source.

 

[Cameron143]

I can agree with you that there is not likely anything you can say that will change my position as I have been like you in my past & just like you I was a staunch defender of the trinity.

The definition you want is eikon & that is NOT what was used in Heb 1:3. In Heb 1:3 it was the "Phrase" is charaktēr. Look it up at BlueLetterBible.org if you prefer? If you are unwilling to see the truth in writing then it is a statement that you are unwilling to see the truth in the spirit either.

It has actually been enjoyable to not be contending with someone who is deeply critical.
Be blessed.

And I'm not critical because I care more for your soul than appearing correct.